Do Indian Men Generally Like White Women?

by Sharell शारेल on February 22, 2010

in Culture Shock in India, Daily Life in India

Post image for Do Indian Men Generally Like White Women?

One of the readers of this blog has had a question on her mind for some time now. And although she’s been reading this blog frequently, she still hasn’t got a proper answer for it. In particular, she’d like to address her question to Indian males.

She asks: “Do Indian men in general really like white women? I suppose there are people who do and who don’t, obviously, but I mean in general. Do they find white women attractive? When they stare, why exactly is it for? Is it because they like what they see or is it because they see white woman as some sort of alien/freak who landed in India?”

Your perspectives would be appreciated!

Photo: courtesy of www.flickr.com user Arpana Sanjay

156 people like this post.
© Copyright 2010 Sharell शारेल, Diary of a White Indian Housewife 2008-2014. All Rights Reserved. Do not copy and reproduce text or images without permission.

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Beautiful brown November 19, 2010 at 8:25 am

Hi LA,
I am very interested with blond. I dated one and had lots of fun.
Brown with white is a good combination and very sexy and sexual.
Hope to hear from you.

S

Sharell November 19, 2010 at 10:26 am

This one is funny! Had to post it! :-P Anyone interested?

Shivani November 19, 2010 at 3:25 pm

HAHAHAAHAHAHA.
love it! :)

Claudia November 19, 2010 at 1:55 pm

Looooooooooooooll at Beautiful brown!! :D

Beautiful Brown November 20, 2010 at 8:08 am

I would like to have my white girlfriend or woman wear a red or pink sari. I strongly believe white women look very sensual,sexy and pretty in saris. Imagine seeing a blonde in a red sari. She would definitely look very feminine and hot. I strongly suggest any blondes ,brunettes or red hair to try saris and you’ll see the difference and how much attention you’ll get.
Brown with white is the ultimate couple .

Amit Desai November 23, 2010 at 10:18 am

Don’t you think (white) women look sensual, sexy, and pretty without saris? Show me a single porn with a blond wearing a sari and still looking sensual, sexy, or pretty!!!

Manny November 23, 2010 at 9:53 pm

LOL :)

Manny November 23, 2010 at 9:58 pm

All right LA. It looks like I have fierce competition in this Swayamvara I can’t possibly win. So I am opting out my dear! LOL :)

Shadow November 25, 2010 at 3:13 pm

Role play is totally not needed here. If you want your girl to wear a sari because “it looks hot”, probably you should have an Indian girlfriend. For “whites” this is not a traditional clothing.

Besides, I’m wondering for whom you want the attention, your gf or yourself? If you like white women only because “brown and white look good togeter” and people pay attention to it, then you have all the wrong reasons to have such a relationship.

Sharell November 25, 2010 at 3:25 pm

Maybe he has a fetish? :-P

Shadow November 26, 2010 at 12:41 am

certainly! :P

Elena November 25, 2010 at 10:55 pm

Shadow, why do you have a problem with white women wearing saris? I wore one at a friend’s wedding and I was told by numerous Indians and non-Indians that I looked great. I certainly felt that way ;).

Don’t you wear any western clothes? jeans, jackets, pencil skirts, cocktail dresses etc? Don’t you “look hot” in any of them because you are Indian?

Manny November 25, 2010 at 11:41 pm

The best western women clothes is the Pencil Skirts! I think the feminazies have killed this dress. I hardly see working women in the US in these clothes these days.

The worst western women outfit is the Pant Suit. Even that gorgeous Aishwarya Rai looks ugly in em.

:)

Shadow November 26, 2010 at 12:41 am

I have nothing against saris when worn without being nagged to it. In the same way, no issues with Indian women wearing skinny jeans and a top, as long as they want it.

Personally, even though I have a few pieces of Indian clothing, I feel very weird wearing them. Maybe thats also because we’re living in Europe. When Indians ask me to wear their traditional attire I always wonder if they want to make me look more like an Indian or something.

I don’t feel comfortable in Indian clothes, both in the sense of fit/fabric and identity. I don’t want to fake a person I’m not, just because it looks better in Indian circle. Maybe this would be different if I were in India, but till I’m not, I don’t really see Indian clothes as an option. Which doesn’t change the fact that there are many women who look beautiful wearing a sari or kurta.

Amit Desai November 26, 2010 at 7:22 am

Shadow,

Be a nice Christian/European and do poor women a favor. Please donate your “few pieces of Indian clothing” to those poor Indian women who hardly have anything to wear.

Besides, saris can easily hide the ugliness/fattiness of women at some point. So if saris don’t fit you, it’s your loss.

Some people from your “Indian circle” (such as males) may want to see you in saris because they are just sick of seeing white women naked or 3/4 naked all the time. So they merely want a change!!!

Elena November 26, 2010 at 3:24 pm

I posted this on another thread but it is also very suitable here – dating by race and gender according to trends from OK Cupid:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

Shadow November 26, 2010 at 7:42 pm

@ Amit Desai

Do yourself a favour and stop offending people. I have not mentioned that I’m either a Christian or that I need to cover anything (what was that eitherways??).

If you don’t like a woman being “naked or 3/4 naked”, don’t look! Very simple. Besides, as usual, your knowledge about Europe must be limited in this topic as well – we have winter man, WINTER, temperature around 5 Celcius. Does it look like a time for a bathing suit to you?

Plus, if you have something against (white) women (naked), please get your sexual frustration treated elsewhere.

Amit Desai November 26, 2010 at 9:22 pm

Shadow,

I didn’t mention that you are a Christian. I just told you to be one. And I didn’t mention that I don’t like a woman being naked.

Yes, in my limited knowledge, winter is much harsher in all over Europe than in Canada. And in winter, all European girls wear heavy winter cloths even inside the pubs, bars, and clubs. I never got a chance to get into these holy places (is it due to racism in Europe?).

And talking about the naked white women and the treatment of my sexual frustration, the last time I saw a white women naked is less than 48 hours. The last time I touched a white woman is less than 12 hours. I think I am getting better slowly and steadily!!!!

Shadow November 26, 2010 at 9:52 pm

You are nobody to tell me whom I should be.

And I don’t care whom you’ve seen and whom you’ve touched. Frankly mentioning it here sounds more than pathetic.

Before you say anything about racism, look at yourself and your rant about how Indian guys have enough of seeing 3/4 naked western girls.

Don’t flatter yourself, you’re not the only Indian in the western world. There are ones who do more, like more, accept more, and most of all, those who get out of their narrow-mindness and understand that if you are a guest in somebody’s country, you behave according to the rules there. And rules here are, girls can wear anything they want – you are the last person anybody would want to listen to here.

Amit Desai November 27, 2010 at 12:24 am

I follow facts, not judgments.

You may walk around “half-naked” if you want and if the rules in your country permit. I’ll still call it “half-naked” every time I see you “half-naked”. (Calling spade a spade).

Too bad I’ve not behaved according the rules in your country.

Now go sue me (again, according to the rules in your country)!

Shadow November 27, 2010 at 4:34 am

So far, you follow only your little strange logic. Your predjudice is too big to see any facts at all.

Please feel free to cocoon your girl head to toe, and then go around blabbering whom you touched within last 12 hours.

I don’t have the need to sue you, wrong culture and wrong country dear. You watched too many american courtroom dramas.

Have a good life!

Shivani November 27, 2010 at 3:25 pm

We can go to Rakhi Ka Insaaf – India’s Jerry Springer or Maury. LOL

Tushar November 27, 2010 at 12:00 pm

Interesting discussion. My personal comment is >> How a Indian woman walking on the streets in Africa ..I think something similar to that. It’s the difference which we spot from the crowd thats it! Or say a African walking in to crowded streets in Tokyo? I dont want to differenciet any1 by colours. Pls dont take my comment harsh. :-) I am just taking an example.

Tushar November 27, 2010 at 12:20 pm

Just remembered something. In my recent Thailand trip I was waiting at Immigration row at Bangkok airport. 1 S@udi man with white dress/gown,ring on his head etc with 2 women in black dress were in row..and almost 90% crowd was eagerly stearing at them. Some were whispering in to ears of each other & few pushed there eye brows up & mouth was in reverse U shape for a minute ….

Tushar November 27, 2010 at 12:25 pm

my frank opinion is it’s not the “bold and beautiful” effect of a white woman but the difference. I can imagine history when an Asian enters in to some crowded place in US & most people would stear at him/her due to the difference in his/her dressing style,hair style,type of footwear ,eyes etc. :)

Keri November 27, 2010 at 1:03 pm

Thanks, @Elena, for that link to the OK Cupid article. As a Black woman, the results just confirmed what I know from personal experience.

And what I also know (ok, FEEL, but it’s based on personal observation and experience), is that a lot of Indian men (mostly those not born here, interestingly) will trip all over themselves anytime a white girl shows them even the slightest bit of interest. Just look at Amit and his BRAGGING about being with a white woman. It’s like something to show off to their friends, a trophy that they won. Oh sure, love can come about too, but the initial pull is usually the skin, not the person herself. And if she doesn’t know, or care, anything about Indian culture, that’s ok, she gets a pass. I, on the other hand, get praised, highly praised, by many guys (whom I’m interested in) for knowing so much about Indian culture and ways, but not one of them is ever going to date me, at least not seriously (i.e., mention my existence to their family or even their friends). The reason why is in the second sentence of this post.

Shivani November 27, 2010 at 3:24 pm

“I, on the other hand, get praised, highly praised, by many guys (whom I’m interested in) for knowing so much about Indian culture and ways, but not one of them is ever going to date me, at least not seriously (i.e., mention my existence to their family or even their friends)”

Screw them Keri, you are too good for them.

Keri November 27, 2010 at 3:29 pm

Thanks, Shivani, I realize that. But isn’t there one that I’m just good enough for?

LA November 28, 2010 at 4:35 am

Dear Keri, I bet there r many reasons for those men not being responsive in the way u’d like them to.. none are a reflection of ur “worthiness.” You want someone to love u & accept u as a whole.. looks, interests, habits, everything. Don’t settle for less. Just continue being the beautiful kind thoughtful loving soul that u already r, and the right guy will come along! Yes, I have seen posts on other blogs about Black women being happily married to Indian men. :)

Keri November 28, 2010 at 9:19 am

Hi LA, Please let me clarify. I think I’m MORE than worth it, if they ever took the time to see past my skin color. In fact, I’ve been told I’m worthy, “but…”, just like that, ‘You’re great, but…’. And this is not just my personal experience. I have several Black girlfriends who are very interested in Indian men and Indian culture, some even more than me (two are in Indian dance troupes and one even teaches a Bhangra class), and yet none of them have ever been asked out by an Indian guy (well, not seriously anyway). Are we ALL just so unlucky that not one of us have met that Indian guy yet even though we spend alot time with Indian guys? Sorry, but I don’t think so.

I would appreciate if you can, pointing me to those other posts on other blogs, as I have looked many times and have only seen 2 couples that are married. I’ve seen couples that are dating, but only 2 married couples.

I’m resigning myself to reality but it doesn’t make it suck any less LOL

Keri November 28, 2010 at 9:40 am

Oh, one thing that I forgot to mention: often, when I read stories about White women who are dating Indian men, many of them say that when they met their guy, they weren’t particularly interested in Indian men (some have said that they never had even talked to an Indian person before) and had no clue or interest in Indian culture. But the guy says he’s willing to show her, to teach her. But then other guys meet a Black woman who’s actually interested in meeting him and knows a bit about his culture, something most Indians are extremely proud of, and with her it’s a no-go. Yes, I know, I know, there could a myriad of reasons why it’s like that. But when it happens over and over and over again, you start to pin point the reasons.

I won’t even get into my wonderful (or maybe, not so wonderful) friends who have been upfront and blunt with me about the situation.

LA November 28, 2010 at 11:32 am

@Keri
“I’m resigning myself to reality but it doesn’t make it suck any less” Aww.. don’t give up just yet! :) Many ppl in general haven’t yet met that ONE, period.

I will post more examples, as I come across them, but here are a few:

(1)[http://tinyurl.com/25m55ry] Search for posters named “Enigma” & “Blindian Bengali/African girl”; and

(2) Not a blog, but an example I was able to find by quickly googling around [http://tinyurl.com/2cep22a]-click Other Answers-poster named ImanLii.

Oh yeah, the other day I was having lunch downtown large metropolitan city in the US, at an Indian restaurant, attended largely by Indians, and there was a giggly couple, an Indian man in his 40s & Black woman in mid/late 30s. I don’t know if they were married, but they were flirting & looked like they were into each other. They were DEFINITELY on a date. :)

Come to think of it, I remember now seeing yet another couple in their 30s/40s (Indian man+Black woman) at a bus stop the other day–those two looked like they were dating–definitely coming back from/going out somewhere, judging by their dress. I didn’t get the vibe that they were a married couple though.

Hope this helps..

Shivani November 28, 2010 at 12:43 pm

Honestly Keri, if you just purposefully look for an Indian guy who is accepting of you being black, you may just settle for less. I don’t really understand what’s so special about Indian guys and I am Indian. Yes, I am talking about the generalized impression of Indian guys and exceptions always exist. So my question to you is, why do you want to be with an Indian guy? Is it because you love the culture or just find them attractive? You don’t have to answer it, but I am just curious.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 2:49 am

@Shivani, let me try to make a long story short, though I’m not very good at that lol

I’ve loved Indian dress and food since I was very young. We had friends who were Indian by way of Trinidad but were close to their family still in India and visited often. As I ate an Indian dinner at their house (the spicier, the better), I would see their pictures from family functions and loved the sarees and salwar kameez, and I wanted to wear them. One of our friends wrapped me in a saree when I was about 10 and I fell in love. But my mom, who’s not interested in international things at all, told me that only Indian women could wear them, and so I put it out of my mind, though anytime I saw an “Indian-inspired” top or dress, I would buy it. At the time, I wasn’t thinking anything about the men, about any men actually. I wasn’t really interested in boys that much LOL However, in high school, the only teacher that I ever had a crush on was my science teacher, who was an Indian guy from South Africa. He had beautiful brown skin and amazing green eyes…and a mustache, which I typically don’t like, but on him it was ok. I had lunch after his class so I would usually say behind and talk to him for a bit. He was married so I never imagined being with him in anyway but I definitely was attracted to him.

Fast forward to my 20s and I was introduced to this wonderful thing called Bollywood. I already loved musicals, so Bollywood was AMAZING!! Musicals where the women dressed and danced in beautiful sarees and the men was drop-dead gorgeous (my first movie was Kaho Na Pyaar Hai, so I was tainted from the beginning lol). I was hooked. I then went back and looked at some classics from the 70s and 80s and just wanted more and more. Around the same time, I saw a white woman dressed in a SK and asked her where she got it. She told me that she was married to an Indian man and that her MIL got it for her. At the time, I hung out with my Spanish friends alot, most immigrants from Central and South America. I noticed that most often, they married other Spanish people. But sometimes they would marry Americans, when the American knew how to speak Spanish (or was willing to learn) but, first and foremost, was into Spanish culture. And by American, I mean White or Black. I ASSUMED Indians were the same (now I know better). And while I liked Spanish culture, I LOVED Indian culture, so I just assumed the more I knew, the more desirable I would be. At this point, I really started to notice the guys in particular, and even though most didn’t look anything like Bollywood stars lol, I was still attracted (I should note, I’m also attracted to Middle Eastern and Arabic guys. I admit, it’s the skintone, the tannish-brown, but since I know the most about Indian culture, they’re the highest on my radar). And the infatuation has stuck. I’m really, really trying to get over it now, though.

I understand you’re not thinking Indian guys are so great. Frankly, I feel the same way about American guys LOL

BTW, I don’t quite understand this sentence:
“Honestly Keri, if you just purposefully look for an Indian guy who is accepting of you being black, you may just settle for less.”

Are you saying that I’ll settle for just any Indian guy who accepts me because I’m Black? If so, then no, I do have certain standards and I can’t just accept ANYBODY. But I am flexible.

Manny November 28, 2010 at 6:30 am

My boss is an African American man married to a South Indian girl.

Keri November 28, 2010 at 9:27 am

Manny, I have heard about those couplings before. I don’t know if this is a wide spread thought, but an Indian friend told me that a friend of hers who is married to a Black guy was told by her father that, he wasn’t happy at all with her choice but he didn’t care because her kids wouldn’t have his last name anyway. But, he said, he would never allow any children who would bear his last name (his son’s children) to have any Black blood in them. They didn’t formally disown her but they barely speak to her and don’t visit her home. That thinking maybe why there are more couplings like that, also b/c, from what I know and have read, Black families tend to more readily accept their children’s spouses, regardless of race

Hopefully your boss’ wife’s family is open-minded and have accepted her husband.

LegalAlien November 28, 2010 at 10:01 am

Keri:
Stories like this are also part of the reason why there are few Indian-Af American relationships:

http://gonebutnotforgotten.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/chiman-rai-found-guilty-in-murder-of-sons-wife/

Amit Desai November 29, 2010 at 8:59 am

I like white women, but it’s a matter of what I can get, not what I desire or brag.

But let me correct you about two of your wrong assumptions, that white women get praised/passed eventhough they don’t care or know much about Indian culture. This is not true in most cases.

ALL white girls I’ve dated (and girls in my circle) knew much about Indian culture/movies etc. even before they met me. If these white women had not known enough about India or Indian men, they would have hard time connecting with Indian people to begin with.

Secondly, white skin doesnt attract me so much personally, but in short, it’s their facial features, height, and the shape of the body that’s more attractive. Of course, this is highy subjective opinion of mine, not a general fact.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 9:40 am

@Amit
You say that you are not attracted to white skin. So if those same features were on a Black woman, are you saying you would be attracted to her? If it’s just about the features, height and body shape…

“it’s a matter of what I can get” – Question is: do you try to get anything OTHER than white women?

What I say is based on my experience, of people I know or things I’ve read. Many of the white women who have blogs about their lives with South Asian (including Paki, Bengali, Nepali, etc. guys) men, say that they didn’t know much or anything at all about the culture when they started their relationships (in fact, one (http://myindianlove.com/?p=1359 ), said she had never even met an Indian person when she met him). Please check the blogs if you don’t believe me. So, that’s not an assumption. That’s what they wrote themselves. And it’s what I experienced myself with the two white girls I know who have married Indian guys. As I wrote in the post to which you are responding to, “And what I also know (ok, FEEL, but it’s based on personal observation and experience)…”, so it’s not just assumptions that I pulled out of the air, it’s based on my experiences. And I’m a very observant person, and I’ve seen it time and time again. Your experience, obviously, has been different.

Amit Desai December 1, 2010 at 9:51 am

Yes for sure. If those same features were on black woman, I would be attracted to her as well.

And no, I don’t try to get anything other than white women. Other women generally reject me. My assumption is that these women think that I am too much involved with white women and hence too bad (or good) for non-white women. Two of my close non-white/non-Indian female friends (one Asian, one Caribbean) never took me seriously and wished to be my “friend only”.

Keri December 2, 2010 at 7:02 am

Hmm, so you would be attracted to her but you wouldn’t date her because you’ve been rejected a few times in the past. YOu know, rejection is a part of dating. You’ve never been rejected by a white woman? I would find that hard to believe. Also, how many times were you rejected by women of other races before you decided to only focus on white women? And since not all white women have the same features, height and body shape, and you said that’s what attracts you more than skin, then why have you focused just on white women after a few (expected) rejections?

Honestly, it just sounds like an excuse to me, but that’s just my opinion. Really, if people let rejection prevent them going for who they want, no one would be in a relationship. And I don’t think rejection has stopped you from going for what you want. (Just admit why you want it LOL)

Christel November 28, 2010 at 12:49 pm

It strikes me: I like indians because they are so family oriented, and I am too, and being that my family diverged into the disorientation of extended family here, I feel like having that connection to people. Generally, the kind of people I choose as friends are people who are passionate about family, and even whom choose to extend their family bounds to people not related to them by blood. I have many of those types of people in what I consider my best family. I have noted this to be the same among many Asian countries, as well as Latin and Hispanic cultures.

Although I have often been flattered that I get “hit” on by a few hispanic or indian male clerks at the local ethnic markets, it strikes me odd that it is not that way when it comes to American males. Personally, I like the guys from India. They are sweeter, and I have been bitter and solo a long time about men in my family. My dad left me when I was 5, so it left a huge impression on me that I wasn’t wanted. …These grocery clerks and friends who’ve gotten to know me and ask me to date them this year, well….. They’ve caused my sweet side to open up.

I can’t help but think the culture of India has done that for me, something my family couldn’t and my friends didn’t understand about me.

Thanks to you sweet guys!

Indian woman November 30, 2010 at 10:21 am

@Christel

” My dad left me when I was 5, so it left a huge impression on me that I wasn’t wanted. …These grocery clerks and friends who’ve gotten to know me and ask me to date them this year, well….. They’ve caused my sweet side to open up”

Whoa, honey-That’s sad that your dad left, BUT you have to be careful that some men prey on this and know the right words to say.

In my humble opinion, I think some Indian men will treat non-Indian women nicer than their own to get on their good side.

Charie Daviston November 28, 2010 at 2:44 pm

@ Keri-Below is a website by a Black American woman that discusses her relationship with her East Indian husband.
http://blindianlove.com/about/
This is a website created by an Indian woman and her Black husband. They are based in the UK.
http://blindiannetwork.ning.com/
Hope this helps.

Shadow November 28, 2010 at 8:01 pm

As many of you talk about the “skin colour effect”, I would just want to share with you what my (Indian) partner told me when we were experiencing first problems with his family. Unfortunately there is a colour hierarchy when it comes to life partners, and some choices have very little to do with cultural associations, simply put, there is a dosage of racism, or at least intolerance of the different.

Parents would like to see their son to marry a girl preferably (in order from most wanted to least tolerated):
1. the same community, lighter that the guy
2.the same community. the same colour as the guy
3. the same community, darker than the guy
4. different community, Indian, lighter
5. different community, Indian, same or darker
6. White or Hispanic
7. Mixed-race
8. East Asian
9. Black

As you can see, there are limited possibilities for “accepted” colours, and even with the same community but darker girl problems start. Not even mentioning another ethnicity, as with these there are other stereotypes attached, such as “slutiness” or “being dirty and of poor hygiene”.

Of course, this is not a rule and there are many families which don’t have problems with a different skin colour. However, this is the most popular “belief system”. Indians often claim that this is not true, but having this kind of problem in a family shows how people react.

Manny November 28, 2010 at 9:46 pm

People keep using the word “Color” as a big issue. Although color may have to do with an individual’s preference, most families would not object to darker color if the specific individual don’t care for the color. An Indian who is darker than Africans is often acceptable for a desi family than a Gori (white) firangi.

What is an issue is “Culture” This is an overriding factor for desies. So any objection to Blacks is more to do with culture than their color of skin.

If color was the factor, then many gorie girls here would not have faced the hurdles they often face. Some of gories (from the many intercultural blogs here) are almost stumped that they are discriminated for their white skin.

Manny November 28, 2010 at 9:52 pm

This is why Gories who feel not so welcomed by their BF’s/Husband’s family, if they wear a sari and port a bindi.. they could really impress their MILs. If she wear the Manglasutra, they may even be able to sell them the Brooklyn Bridge!

:)

Shadow November 29, 2010 at 3:23 am

The point is not to impress anyone by dressing as somebody you are not. A white/black person in a sari is still a white/black person. Maybe for Indian parents it looks more acceptable because they don’t care what is the “inside” of that person, but only what neighbours will think.

This is not a cultural thing, but a stereotype thing. Indians usually have no clue about other nations (every white is like American, for example), what’s more, they don’t really want to know. Hence, the prejudice of the parents is nothing cultural, it’s only ignorance.

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 4:01 am

“This is not a cultural thing, but a stereotype thing. Indians usually have no clue about other nations (every white is like American, for example), what’s more, they don’t really want to know.”

I don’t know which Indians you are talking about, but this can’t be further from the truth. Indians in big cities are so much more informed about the world, speak at least two languages (if not more) and more often than not, are glued to their news channels.

I don’t know how your experience was with dating an Indian guy (since you claim to know so much about Indians), but your “facts” are probably based on a wrong/strange experience. Every “white” person is not an American, even an uneducated person will tell you that because almost 100% of Indian males follow cricket and yes, the two/three white teams are Australia, England and South Africa. Even uneducated Indians know that not all whites are Americans. Geez, so much for wrong stereotyping.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 4:24 am

Just an interesting aside, Shivani:

When I was in India, I often had to deal with people questioning how I could be American since I’m Black (and I had my hair braided). When they first saw me, they thought I was African, which is understandable since many Africans go to India for schooling. But when I would pull out my American passport, then the questions would be, where are your parents from? Where are your grandparents from? When I would tell them that they are all from America, they would say in Hindi (which I somewhat understand), ‘Oh she’s confused, they’re from Africa’. (Can you imagine them telling a White person that they’re confused and they’re really from Europe?) And on more than one occasion, I was told that I didn’t “look American”. When I asked why, they told me it’s “because Americans are white” LOL

BTW, this happened in Mumbai and New Delhi, not some backward village, in case anyone was wondering.

Prashanth November 29, 2010 at 4:40 am

@Keri

…Because many Hollywood movies (apart from P0rn stuff) only have white folks, as characters….Also, there wasn’t much information about the slavery in America, civil war, etc accessible to the far east. So, partially your country is also to be blamed, as there was and still is, this huge integration problem. Regarding Indians, a good number of people are aware of that and the rest are just ignorant! :)

Keri November 29, 2010 at 4:59 am

Oh sorry, one thing I forgot to mention: when I said that I was from America, most would then say “Obama” LOL like I knew him or something. I guess they thought I was like him, born in America, but my father from Africa. Though I had a few tell me, including 2 who said that I don’t look American, that they really like Will Smith, Denzel Washington and Wesley Snipes (really???). So they recognized that we are the same in that we’re Black but I guess they couldn’t reconcile those guys being American with me being American too.

You’re right, many are not familiar with the concept of slavery, something America is not too apt to broadcast to other countries, but I did think they would realize Americans are Black too, based on the Western movies they’ve watched (other than porn).

I actually found it interesting and amusing, not offensive.

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 6:09 am

I don’t know, but Shadow’s generalizations are very stupid. She pretends to know so much about India and 100% of the things are negative. Well, if you hate India so much, then don’t be here and promote your negative thoughts. I am fine with people being a critique, but stupid generalizations will get no respect from me.

And Keri, I am surprised you had so much interaction with people. Because when I go traveling, I end up just sight-seeing and hopping on a flight back home. Well, the thing is that in India people do think ethnicity and nationality are the same thing. Its because in India if you are a 3rd generation Gujrati who grew up in say, Tamil Nadu, you won’t call yourself Tamil, you’ll call your self Gujrati. But the fact that Shadow shamelessly announces that all Indians think that all whites are Americans only, she is only kidding herself and feeding her perverse thinking.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 8:00 am

Shivani, when I travel, I try to interact as much with the locals as I can because I know that most people have negative views of Blacks, and I want to do my little part to change their mind, so that maybe the next time when someone is disparaging Black people, they can remember me and be able to say, ‘No, they’re not ALL like that.’ When I would speak Hindi to people there, it would blow their minds, and that was funny. Like one time, I was in a store in Pune and was looking at a saree that I wanted to get stitched. I saw that it was marked Rs. 2000 before the guy snatched it out of my hand and opened it up so that I could see the print in full. It was really nice and I thought the price was good. To be polite, I asked him how much it was. He says Rs. 3000. What?????? (for any who don’t know the conversion, Rs.100 is about $2, so this is a $20 difference). I said, “I saw it was marked Rs. 2000. You just raised the price. Kyun? Kyunki may American hoon?” Immediately, the whole section got quiet. All of the guys mouths were hanging open. The salesman just laughed nervously and then said, “Very good, very good. For that you get it for Rs. 1500.” All the guys just laughed and then clapped. It was kind of embarassing but felt very good. They certainly got a different image of Black people from that interaction. And I ended up getting a bunch of other free stuff from them LOL

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 4:05 am

Dear Shadow,
Until now I had been supportive of your thoughts/ideas even though may not have matched mine. But I just think you have deep resentment towards Indians and it just shows in your attitude. I just wish you’d stop with your ridiculous generalizations already. Yes, I support you that staring is rude and Indian men do stare the hell out of you, but you claiming that all Indians are basically American red-necks, I just can’t help but dislike you. Sorry.

Manny November 29, 2010 at 9:55 am

Shadow is the “Debbie Downer” of this blog. :)

BTW..if you are not familiar who “Debbie Downer” is, just search using google or You tube!

LOL :)

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 10:55 am

LOL yeah Rachel Dratch…good old days when SNL was actually good.

Prashanth November 29, 2010 at 4:26 am

@Shadow

I agree with some of the points that you posted, but there’s a reason for that…India wasn’t and still is not so developed, as the western countries…and many Indians haven’t traveled much, so far (which probably holds true, from the last couple of hundreds of years). So, do you expect everyone to be well-informed? Oh come on..many people don’t even have proper access to information (which is improving now).

Ok now, lemme come back to Europeans/Americans…Europeans/Americans are some of most well traveled folks, in the world…How many of ‘em can distinguish between a Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi (or any South Asian….or a Punjabi Sikh and some Arab guy) and North African/Middle Eastern people..and how many can distinguish between a Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese/Thai people? I have met many well traveled Europeans/Americans and most of ‘em don’t have complete knowledge either.

Lemme give you some samples:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THyTnt00b5I
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE&feature=related

I’m not trying to blame anyone, but just wanna tell “thats how it is!”. Maybe Europe/America should also show that the history started long back and India (Africa and ther countries also) played an important role, in history….and also give credit to early Indian inventors, mathematicians, astrologers or astronomers or…to the people, who found ‘Surgery’, ‘Dentistry’, etc…instead of just copying the ideas, properly documenting them and claiming that they found it (Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocentrism).

Manny November 29, 2010 at 8:48 am

Go away!

Manny November 29, 2010 at 8:49 am

That “Go away” is for that “Shadow”.

Amit Desai November 29, 2010 at 9:14 am

Shadow,

You sound like a perfect missionary bigot! It seems to me that you need a strong dose of my sarcasm that may open up all 10 holes (8 holes if you are a man) on your body!

Manny November 29, 2010 at 9:43 am

I think, you are on to something. :)

Keri November 29, 2010 at 2:12 am

@Manny
While I do believe that most Indian parents would prefer if their son married an Indian girl over a foreigner, I absolutely DO NOT believe that if he brought home a dark Indian girl (pic attached: http://www.weeklyblitz.net/pics/367.jpg) they would prefer her over a firangi. For one thing, their children would be darker and we all know that people with lighter skin are at an advantage in India in terms of jobs, etc. Most parents would not want their grandchildren to be at that disadvantage, if it can be helped. (aside: read this article about how dark babies are not adopted http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?250315) I have a friend from Delhi, who secretly married her husband here in the US 4 years ago b/c his family doesn’t like her. The reason why? She’s the same color as her husband, “wheatish”, which is not dark but too dark for them. She has their culture but not the color.

When I was in Orissa for my friend’s wedding, her husband visited with family and friends he hadn’t seen in a many, many years, some since childhood. Instead of them talking about how much he had grown or changed since they last saw him, they all commented on how DARK he had gotten since they last him. On the other hand, family, friends, and even those who didn’t know them gave him much praise for bringing home such a beautiful bride, with her very fair skin (pale, even she said she needed a tan) and beautiful blue eyes. She said people were constantly touching her skin and rubbing her face, not just family but people on the street. You think that had nothing to do with her color? At one point, she started to complain to me that all of the attention was starting to bug her, that people were all over her just b/c of her fair skin. And while she wore a salwar kameez most of the time that she was there, so as to fit in as best she could, she couldn’t speak one word of Oriya,not even Hello or Thank You (didn’t even bother to learn, while I learned Hindi for 6 months to prepare for my trip there), and had not read up at all about how Oriyan weddings are held, so had no idea what she was doing during her own wedding. You think anyone minded? She knew pretty much nothing of Oriyan culture, but they didn’t care; they love her fair color…and the light babies she’ll make.

I don’t want to sound bitter b/c I’m not. Her husband, after much prodding from her, admitted that he would not have answered her online ad, all things equal, if it said she was Black. He was totally honest (though he didn’t want to be b/c he didn’t want to offend me) and it bothered her. I, on the other hand, was not surprised at all, and frankly, appreciated him being honest. I just wish more guys were honest like that. They pick these woman who have no idea about their culture and they’re ok with them being ignorant BECAUSE of their color. They decide that they’ll deal with the culture thing later. That’s the truth and that’s the reality and that’s the way it is. And I’m a realist, so I (reluctantly) accept it but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.

@LA and Charie Daviston
I’ve seen the Blindian Love blog before, the only one I’ve seen by a Black woman with an Indian husband. I know that there are a few couples like that, but they are very few and very far in between (I believe the mere dearth of blogs about it attest to that), esp in comparison to White women/Indian (South Asian) men (I don’t think those couples are even considered exceptions to the rule anymore). They are very few even in comparison to Black men/Indian women, which I’ve seen quite a few times (maybe for the reason that I wrote about above in an earlier reply to Manny). And about dates, I’ve been on dates with Indian men before, quite a few, but they were just that dates. They didn’t go anywhere b/c they weren’t going through the drama of bringing a dark girl home (I was darker than all of them, maybe if I was they were darker than me, it might have been different, since they couldn’t say they didn’t like me because I was too dark LOL). I think some men will go on dates, for the experience…and to experiment, but very few would be willing to take her home, as compared to a white woman. I dated one guy (who I was even that attracted to at first LOL) for 8 months. We weren’t intimate until the 8th month and then he realized it was serious and he broke up with me. There’s some who date but very very few who marry.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 2:17 am

The reason the links are not working is because it’s picking up the closing Parentheses ) Just delete that and it will work.

Manny November 29, 2010 at 10:53 am

This is where you still do not understand Indian culture.

My own older system is very fair and my brother in law is dark. Darker than many Africans. But he is from the same caste and comes from a good family and he is an officer in the Indian armed forces (A Col and a commanding officer). This was an arranged marriage. ..But this was who my sister agreed to marry after rejecting 9 suitors and many who were much fairer. But this person was the one my sister liked and she got married.

Seen the Bollywood movie Hum Dil De Chucke Sanam? An arranged marriage between a fair princess and a dark guy but the dark guy comes from similar class in their society. Its not uncommon.

The idea that parents would not agree because of grand children us just bizzare. Not that there may not be desies like that. But they must be desi trash.

Manny November 29, 2010 at 10:53 am

That should read, “My own older sister….

Manny November 29, 2010 at 10:57 am

IF white skin was the criteria for desi parents, why do you think many of these Gories are having trouble with their desi BF;s parents so much? Why do you think they go though all this trouble?

Shouldn’t Desi parents welcome gories with open arms…after all, they would get their very fair grand children?

They do not care for their sons to marry gories and would rather prefer a darker shade desi for the most part. Trust me.

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 11:03 am

LOL yes, Indian girls are the only ones who’ll put up with marrying a man-child (in most cases), getting a six-figure income (in most cases; abroad anyways), putting up with the in-laws nonsense (in most cases), playing the maid in the house (again, in most cases the guy won’t do a thing except order) and prove to be a good mother (in most cases because she probably doesnt have stds, alcohol/drug problem). On top, ours is a culture, no matter what others say that we are fixated with white skin, most Indians do think that Indian girls are the most beautiful in the world!

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 11:07 am

And you know, we are also taught not to believe in a thing called divorce (although it is getting prominent now). I’d like to think I’m a modern Indian girl and I dont believe in divorce, at all! I won’t divorce my husband, whoever he may be unless he is abusive and or a pedophile. Stick through thick and thin, baby!

Manny November 29, 2010 at 11:08 am

That may be your kind of family Shivani. But not all Indians are like that. There are many good ones. You just may not be n such circles?

;)

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 11:21 am

lol, i was only stereotyping. As much as I respect the spirit of this blog and Sharrell, the truth is that no matter how much the Indian men may lust after gori mems on the streets, their families only want a good Indian girl as their DIL. Of course globalization is changing things and we see more interracial relationships, but they will never be the norm. To say Indian men prefer white women over Indian ones, is as retarded as saying White men only prefer Indian/Asian/Black women over their own kind.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 11:46 am

I understand what you are saying, and I apologize for any offense I might have caused. And I will speak to my friends about that, because the majority of them, of all colors and castes, told me basically the same thing: that alot of Indian parents wouldn’t want their sons to marry a much darker girl (we never really talked about daughters marrying darker guys – and I could be wrong, but I think the son vs daughter roles are much different in families). I don’t think white skin (as in white girls) was the criteria, but the impression I got was that, if the white girl accepted their culture, it was the lesser of the two evils as compared to marrying a very dark girl. But I’ll speak to my friends more in depth about it. I might have gotten the wrong impression (BTW, none of them are Indian haters, they’re all married to or dating Indians. The ones that are with white women, I don’t really talk to that much b/c they live in other states now)

Again, I apologize for any offense.

Manny November 29, 2010 at 12:02 pm

No need to apologize Keri. You did not offend me. I was just trying to explain for I feel that you haven’t quite gotten the desi attitude thing. I don’t blame you for it. Desis are complex. Thats for sure…and much varied too.

I am sure there are familes who would rather have fair grand children than care about culture in India. But in my opinion, these are people who my folks would consider trash and would not assciate with under normal circumstances. And India has 1.3 Billion and there are all kinds.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 12:24 pm

You could study all the culture in the world, and still not understand all of the attitudes. That is true! LOL Thank you for understanding.

anamika November 29, 2010 at 3:02 am

Keri, I hate to say this but racism is well and alive today. And Indians are probably as racist as anyone else. Pity us, our racism is a manifestation of centuries worth of inferiority complex bred into us by our imperialist overlords :)
Also Indians being fairly traditional as a group, may care more about what ‘other people think’ – so you may have met Indian guys who were interested in you as a person but won’t follow up because of what others think. If it is any consolation, a lot of those guys dating white women as trophy girlfriends probably have no serious intentions with them, and will end up marrying a ‘nice Indian girl’.
I don’t think we are such great catches ;) so all this is probably not a big loss to you. But if you do end up with an Indian guy you will know for sure he is something very special to have seen past all these mental and social hurdles.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 3:37 am

Oh yes, Anamika, I do know that racism is everywhere, and not just with Indians. Black women in general have a hard time dating interracially, as we’re not considered desirable to most races, esp other minority races. I just always find it interesting that minorities share alot of cultural similarities with each other, from our festive music and dance to our colorful clothing and flavorful foods, and especially, our deep devotion to family, and yet, so many minority men still clamor to marry a White person. If, as Manny said, it’s about culture, wouldn’t people with more cultural similarities be attracted more often?

Yes, you’re right, Indians definitely have the ‘what will others think?’ mentality, and I think that’s why, sometimes, they go for white women. Most of the guys who I see with white women are dark men, who would often would not even get a light Indian woman (probably due to caste). Others will think he’s something special because he got this white woman to love him. And his family is happy because the children will be light, and they can show them off. At least, that’s what I’ve personally seen (and I only can speak of my personal experience). And while the white girl is still a trophy, something won, these are trophies that they are starting to keep for the long term.

If that guy does come along, that would be great. He would definitely be someone very different and very special.

Prashanth November 29, 2010 at 4:05 am

@Keri

The color of skin doesn’t represent the caste of a person, in India..So, before you post something, travel around and do some research…I say this coz, your conjecture’s and opinions are limited to America (of which, some are true and some are not). You looking for Indian or Middle-Eastern men and then whining about ‘em, going for the whites, sounds contradictory…Isn’t it?!?!

Keri November 29, 2010 at 4:15 am

I know that color and caste are not associated, but MOST people of higher caste are lighter (tell me that that is not true). And the darker guys that I know have all told me they are of lower castes (though I do know a Dalit who is wheatish). But that’s why I said PROBABLY since I don’t know the reason for sure.

And I have traveled a bit around India, so this is not just an opinion coming from the West.

“You looking for Indian or Middle-Eastern men and then whining about ‘em, going for the whites, sounds contradictory…Isn’t it?!?!”
When did I say I was going for the whites?? Personally, I’m not attracted to Indian guys who are too light (like John Abraham). And I’ve never had a dark guy approach me. Maybe if one did…

Manny November 29, 2010 at 8:55 am

North Indians are fairer than south Indians in general. There are higher castes and lower castes including Dalits in the North. There are higher castes and lower castes including Dalits in the South. Those are the general rules…yet there are south Indians who are fairer than many North Indians. If you look at Hindu priests from the South (They are generally from the highest castes, who are very dark).

Take Bollywood stars. Actress Relha is very dark and she is a Brahmin (Highest caste). Then take Aishwarya Rai, she is very fair and from the south and she is not of a high caste. .she is somewhere in the middle of the caste totem pole.

Go Figure eh?

:)

Keri November 29, 2010 at 9:48 am

Do you mean the actress Rekha? If so, she’s not what we, in America, would call dark. (pic attached: http://img.bollycurry.com/images/600×0/19951-rekha.jpg ) Beautiful, yes. Dark, not so much.

Manny November 29, 2010 at 10:11 am

Yes. I meant Rekha and she is darker in real life than that photoshoped/Makeup photo. :)

Keri November 29, 2010 at 10:49 am

I’ve never seen her in real life, only pics and movies, but she never looks dark to me. Dusky, maybe, but not dark. I don’t know any stars in Bollywood who really are.

http://www.pinkvilla.com/files/imagecache/ContentPreview/files/rekhaoverdone.jpg
http://www.janubaba.com/wallpapers/images/wp_Janubaba_RaniMukherjeewithRekhabycoolman_20061094349SXWVPO.jpg – dusky beauties
http://i18.tinypic.com/4goghvm.jpg

Charie Daviston November 29, 2010 at 5:18 am

@ Keri
“And I have traveled a bit around India, so this is not just an opinion coming from the West.”

I am an African American woman from the Northeastern part of the USA. I’ve wanted to visit India for quite some time but I am little afraid. What advice do you have for an African American woman traveling to India? Were you denied entrance to restaurants, hotels, etc? Were you harassed by the police? How does North India compare to the South? I’ve heard people are friendlier in the South because skin color is darker.

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 6:11 am

You will not get denied entry into restaurants/hotels granted they are good hotels. India is more classist (is that a word?) than racist these days. Police won’t harass you. But the only thing is that people may not be as friendly as they would be to me or a white person. I have been to Egypt and I’d say Egypt is far more racist than India.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 7:13 am

@Charie,

It was very nice. I traveled by myself for most of the time that I was there, and I had no major problems, except people kept trying to hike the price of things up when they realized that I was American LOL

I traveled to multiple cities in Rajasthan, to Mumbai, Pune, Delhi, Agra, and Bhubaneshwar in Orissa, for a wedding. Bhubaneshwar is not a tourist area so I wouldn’t suggest you go there, unless you want to practice your Hindi, which I was able to do a bit. It was interesting, though, many of the people in Bhubaneshwar were very dark, darker than me, and at one point, a pandit in a temple asked my tour guide if I was Indian. We looked at each other confused and asked why he thought that. He said it was because I was as dark as they were LOL I thought that was cute.

The only thing that bothered me was the staring and talking bad about me “behind my back, in front of my face”. Then I would pull out my passport and they’d smile and want to see it and then get confused and then talk about me again LOL

There’s nothing to be afraid of, just dress appropriately (I didn’t wear shorts or short skirts) and read up on Indian culture and customs before you get there. Some things they do might seem rude, like being very pushy, but that’s just how some of the people are. They were like that with each other too. Once I was pushy back, it was all good. As far as nicer, North or South didn’t seem to matter, it was just the few nice people who were willing to talk to me. As Shivani said, you probably won’t find many to be friendly but don’t let that discourage you. As for police, I barely saw any while I was there.

You won’t have a problem at all, so just plan your trip. BTW, you said that you’re from the Northeast, so am I: New York. May I ask, where are you from?

Charie Daviston November 29, 2010 at 8:27 am

@ Keri
I am from Pennsylvania. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

Charie Daviston November 29, 2010 at 8:35 am

@ Keri
May I ask? Were you traveling to India for business or pleasure? Did you hear the word ‘Kalu’ or ‘Kali’ or ‘habshi’? I heard those were offensive words used to describe black people.

Keri November 29, 2010 at 9:02 am

@Charie

I heard ‘Kalu’ used one or two times but I just let it go. Even if didn’t understand, I knew they were talking disparagingly of me anyway from the look on their face, so it didn’t matter. I’ve never heard ‘habshi’ so if anyone used it, I wouldn’t know anyway.

Don’t worry about it. Just go. Don’t let that bother you. A guy here one day was talking about “ni***rs”. Instead of getting mad, I asked him why he was using that word, that that word was offensive. He told me he just meant it to mean Black guys. He had heard Black guys use the word so he thought it was acceptable. I explained to him the “difference” but then told him that NO ONE should be using that expression, even in a “friendly” way. He had no idea and I didn’t let it bother me.

No one called my anything flat out to my face, so I didn’t let their pettiness bother me. It was more the staring with the ‘screw-face’ than the words that got to me, but after a week or so, I just let roll too.

Charie Daviston November 30, 2010 at 2:49 am

@ Keri
Thanks for sharing your experience. It means a lot.

Amit Desai November 29, 2010 at 9:28 am

The word “kalu” or “kali” is much less offensive than you think. First, it is used to describe any ‘dark’ person (he/she can be from India), just like the word “gora” is used to describe any ‘fair’ person (not necessarily white). One of my friend’s nick name is “kalu”, just because he is darker than all of us in the group. Other than his darker skin, he has no similarity with any Africans, though he is called kalu!

Keri November 29, 2010 at 9:44 am

It’s offensive in how it’s used. It’s like the N-word. When the black guys use it, it’s a “friendly” word (I personally hate it no matter how it’s used). But when someone else is saying it with obvious disdain in their voice, it’s offensive. Same with Kalu. Yes, it can be used as a nickname, but believe me, when I heard people calling me Kalu, it wasn’t in a “nickname-y” way. I can tell the difference.

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 9:55 am

There is no other way to describe black than Kalu or Kali in Hindi. Kali, is also a goddess’ name, so I don’t think it is offensive. You are taking it too far with the nigger thing, Keri.

Sharell November 29, 2010 at 10:01 am

When I lived in Kolkata we had a servant…. he was very dark and his name was Kali!

Keri November 29, 2010 at 10:06 am

Shivani, all I can report is what happened to me. When I was in the airport in Delhi, the woman sitting right across the aisleway from me said ‘Kalu’ in a very dimissive way (like she spat the word out of her mouth while making a ‘screw-face’) and flung her hand towards me. She didn’t say it to my face, but she said it about me. For the next 2 hours (my flight was delayed), her and her husband talked about me. I know because they were pointing at me.

I get what you’re saying, I’m only telling you what happened to me. Can’t speak about anything else.

Shivani November 29, 2010 at 10:53 am

Oh Indian people point and talk about me too. Its just how the culture is. Once I was in this nice restaurant, and after my meal, I decided to touch up on my make-up. This annoying lady on the table next to me decided I would make a fun topic and kept rolling her eyes and making smirks with her fiance (yes, even a guy was included in it). And she was an educated person (not a very cultured one, though). So my perception of people in India is that they need to dramatize every little thing and pass their time on other people’s expense. I also had a woman pass a lewd comment on my dress (it was an american apparel wrap dress, nothing shocking). Both these instances the women were on the unattractive end of the beauty spectrum. Often the people who engage in such behaviour are the ones who have a major insecurity complex and they find one flaw or attribute in the other person who makes them realize how retarded they are.

JAYESH-G November 29, 2010 at 10:48 am

The word ‘habshi’ has been traditionally used to describe the Siddis, brought first from Africa as slaves, by the Muslim rulers of India, but then became powerful mercenaries and then rose to power under the Mughals and the Southern Sultanates.

They were/are mostly muslim.

In fact, the entire Konkan Belt and the Indian Western Coast was ruled by the Siddis of Murud-Janjira, their stronghold, which remained impregnable even to the British Navy.
The impregnable Sea-Fort of Murud-Janjira, near the Alibaug coast, is a military architectural marvel and one gets just blown away at their Naval might when one visits there. :-o

They acted as the Unofficial Navy of the Mughals and their supremacy over the Konkan waters was challenged and then broken by the Maratha Navy.
During the XVth, XVIth, XVIIth centuries they were prominent Sardars (Knights) of the Mughal Empire and especially of the Southern Sultanates.
(Adilshahi, Nizamshahi, Qutubshahi.)

Their interaction with the rising Marathas was Love-Hate.
Malik Amber was the mentor of Shahaji Raje, the father of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
The names of Siddis, like Siddi Johar (The Lion of Karnool), Siddi Masood etc. are known to every Marathi house in Maharashtra.

They were known for their bravery and were Legends in their own rights.

However, now they are reduced to a small number, living in Gujrat, Maharashta and Karnataka in tribes, distrusting the locals and the Government Development Schemes. :-(

So, I guess, ‘habshi’ can be derogatory, like ‘kali’ if it is used in a malignant way.
But, while ‘Kali’ is the name of the ‘Adi-Shakti’ and is worshipped, the Siddi ‘habshis’ were military Legends and their exploits and history of deep interest and admiration to the historians.

So, in short, I would rather have been proud of the word ‘habshi’ if I were in your place! ;-)

Charie Daviston November 30, 2010 at 2:48 am

@JAYESH-G
Thanks for the history lesson. There is so much diversity to India. Amazing!!!

Keri November 29, 2010 at 11:31 am

Well, Shivani, that’s why those 2 hours were my worst time in India. I was stared at all over the country, but it didn’t really bother me so much. But when this couple, this well to do, attractive, middle aged couple spent 2 hours staring and talking about me, it was hard. And I couldn’t move too far away from them because I didn’t want to miss the announcement for my plane (which was delayed, little did I know. Unfortunately, their plane was too). Maybe this couple WAS insecure, but I wouldn’t know why. The wife was nice looking, dressed very well in a beautiful cream churidhar and cream heels (yes, I remember it vividly), hair and makeup very nice and had on nice jewelry. The husband was also handsome and dressed well. To me, they looked upper middle class, for sure.

And, honestly, it wasn’t until they had been staring at me for like a half hour that it started to really bother me. They would look away for a bit, but then come back and stare and point and talk and stare some more. At one point, I got up and went to McDonald’s to get some food and came back and sat in a seat that was not directly in front of them, but slightly off to the side. They still stared and pointed. And I’m not exaggerating or being sensitive. It was so bothersome that, at one point, I had to call my friend in Pune, who I was flying to see, so that she could calm me down, I was getting so upset. I was ready to cry. The only saving grace was that they were on another plane, because if they were on my plane, I would’ve lost it.

I will say this, I do not for one second, think that their behavior is typical of Indians in general. To me, they were obviously racist to the max. It wasn’t curiousity or anything else, it was pure racist IMO. But they were the only ones. And I only brought it up because Charie asked if the word has been used towards me. But notice in my original response to her, I told her not to worry about it, to let it go. I had to let it go then, because my internal feelings were to curse them out. But what would that have solved. And they were really the only ones, so not worth the trouble.

Shadow November 29, 2010 at 7:21 pm

To all of you who have this huge pleasure from offending me:

My comments piss you off so much, because a lot of what I say is true. I have never written ALL Indians are this or that. I’m talking about tendencies and personal experiences. If something was not true, you wouldn’t take it to yourself, and hence, you wouldn’t respond with so much wrath.

There is a lot of things I cherish when it comes to India. But it DOESN’T mean I need to be BLINDLY AWED by this country (which apparenly most of you Indians expect). I’m not obliged by any means to explain my whole life to you, but the fact remains, I have a lot to do with India, and as with everything new and different, there are mixed feeling coming along.

Amit and Manny – you both present extremely low social skills and absolutely zero willingness to discuss. When you can’t find a contra-argument you become rude, and that’s why I’m done responding to you in any way.

Read with understanding people. Don’t build up a theory to what you see on the screen.

To conclude, by being hostile and arguing about every single thing, you are only proving what people think bad about Indians. Again, not the whole country, but people we “non-Indians” meet, even online.

And texts of a type “go away” you can save for yourself. It’s Sharell’s blog “angels”. Not all-praise-India forum.

Coming back to the topic:

Of course there are Indians who know a lot about the world, speak foreign languages and integrate with new communities. With such Indians you don’t need to think much before you become friends or have anything interesting to talk about or to share.

On the other hand, there are types, which make it very difficult for you to make any signifficant contact, and these were the people I was previously talking about. A few examples:

1. the idea of every white woman being a slut
2. “Europe is small”
3. Whites are dirty
4. Blacks are dirty
5. Indian food is the best

When you meet such people, there has to be of course certain clash of opinions and attitudes. This is not a small vs. big town thing. This is not an education thing. This is open- vs narrow-mindness thing.

And as previously said, it’s not about all Indians, but a TENDENCY.

Manny November 29, 2010 at 8:46 pm

Go away and stop making straw man arguments.

Prashanth November 29, 2010 at 8:58 pm

@Manny

What is difference between you and an American redneck or a right-winger from any country, when you don’t allow the other person, to express their opinions?

It’s appalling to see this (name-calling and other mean stuff) coming from you (from someone who claims to have lived in different countries/cultures, for a long time). ‘Shadow’ has a lot of valid points (apart from some naive stuff) and whenever he/she is posting some bitter facts about India, you are going into denial mode. Some of the things ‘Shadow’ posted, might not apply to you personally, but some are true, when considered generally.

If you have something to say, discuss it or come back with valid points and facts, rather than resorting to name-calling and “Go Away” stuff. No offence meant, but I hope you do understand! :)

Manny November 29, 2010 at 9:27 pm

Oh Well! I get mad too!

:)

Sharell November 29, 2010 at 9:41 pm

Prashanth, I think I should appoint you honorary moderator! :-)

Prashanth November 30, 2010 at 2:02 am

@Sharell

Thanks for giving me the ‘Mod Is God’ position and humbling me, but I’ll stick to my present situation and try my best, in posting unbiased & funny/weird opinions/comments, whenever I’m active on this site.

If you are serious about that, I would like to say that I’ve a regular, busy job and travel occasionally..So, I can’t commit to this thing. Otherwise, I would love to! Anyways, I still do promote your site. Thanks again! :)

Sharell November 30, 2010 at 10:48 am

It’s okay, I totally don’t expect you to commit although you would be great! I know how much time this blog takes up. It’s not something you’d want to be involved with. ;-) You’re always welcome around here with your comments though. You help keep the blog interesting. :-)

Manny November 29, 2010 at 10:51 pm

Shadow.

You do not have to go away. This is not my blog. I aplogoize.

And yes., I’d simply try not to respond to your inane comments

Manny November 29, 2010 at 11:04 pm

And my apologies to Sharell and her blog readers for the negativity of my rude reaction. Sorry!

Sharell November 29, 2010 at 11:19 pm

Thank you. It’s okay. There are all kinds of characters around here. Popcorn anyone. ;-)

Nik November 29, 2010 at 10:55 pm

Shadow what is your overall point? You just seem to be an annoying person my dear.

Shadow November 29, 2010 at 11:19 pm

Not more than you are, Nik.

Since you are such a fortune teller, and can say how annoying one can be without even knowing that person, maybe judge yourself with the same scale.

Anyways, as I said, I’m done responding to the rude and the arrogant. That includes you.

If my comments make your blood boil, don’t read. I’m not going to stop speaking my mind just because a few pompous guys cannot swallow a few not-so-flattering opinions foreigners might have about India.

Nik November 30, 2010 at 12:48 am

We usually don’t listen to anything white girls say anyways :)

Amit Desai November 30, 2010 at 10:07 am

Shadow,

I simply showed you a mirror so that you can look at your own eyeballs.

If you think that sari is not “traditional western dress”, why did you buy those “few Indian pieces of cloths anyway”? Were you on acid?

On top of that you claimed that sari is not a good fit for you (I understand the fabric part). Sari is one of the few dresses in the world that doesn’t come with different sizes. I am still not sure what you meant that. I know, in sari you can’t expose your sexy or ugly legs.

You got angry at a guy who wanted to see white women in sari. On the other hand, you got angry at me when I claimed something totally opposite, that I like white women 3/4 naked.

First, decide what you want to wear or decide whether you really want to wear anything at all!!!

Shivani November 30, 2010 at 6:45 am

I don’t know Shadow, but you seem extremely judgemental.

“And as previously said, it’s not about all Indians, but a TENDENCY.”

Well the stereotypes you mentioned about Indians holding regarding Europe, whites, blacks and Indian food being the best can also be held true. Because an Indian may say, Europe is a small continent (it is), Whites have the tendency to be dirty, but they are not ALL dirty. Same with blacks. Indian food has the tendency to be the best tasting food, but isn’t always the best tasting.
potato, PATATO – same thing!

Nobody is asking you to love India, but you have a haughty, holier than thou attitude when it comes to India and Indians. I am Indian and I realize that India has its own flaws, but you come across as extremely bigoted individual. Nobody is forcing you to visit India, to wear a sari, eat Indian food, watch bollywood movies or talk to other Indians or about them. You just have a perverse fascination, that’s all. I have lived and grown up in both a western society and India and I can say that both have their positives and negatives. Yes, a western society is also flawed and whites can also be horrible people, but I refrain from generalizing. Your European culture is not perfect either, so stop hating on India.

Shadow November 30, 2010 at 1:07 pm

@ Shivani

Well yeah, if we ‘westerners’ were to react like Indians to all offences directed at the western world, this blog would be nothing but constant argument.

The fact remains, people here don’t know how to DISCUSS. It’s very easy to call names, talk about bigots, idiots, as*holes, or how many holes in the body one has. SO CLASSY, right? And this is the only thing SOME “great” Indians here do.

When one doesn’t have anything in defense, he offends. Simple rule… from a kindergarten.

Shivani November 30, 2010 at 1:41 pm

You are generalizing, not discussing. I was all along with you when you claimed very rightly so that staring is offensive and Indian men are rude and obnoxious to stare in such a manner. I am sorry, if you want to generalize, I cannot continue. You are welcome to rant with your perverse ideas. But please, always remember that nobody is asking you to wear a sari, visit India, eat the smelly old curry and watch obnoxious bollywood movies.

But please tell me, how is India offending the west? Last time I checked it was we who were colonized and turned into slaves? I’d like to know how/where I am going wrong. I don’t like to offend people, unlike some of us here. (no names taken)

Shadow November 30, 2010 at 7:36 pm

My country did not colonize anyone and didn’t make anyone a slave. In fact, during colonialism my country was not in the state it is now. The first Indians we had contact with was in early ’70ties XX century when both the countries were cooperating in expanding the navy and exchanging technologies.

So answering your question, what is offending towards the west – for example it is exactly what you have just did – put all westerners into one bag and pass on them some collective responsibility for all the misery.

I’m western but not British, not American, and not even from any of the Commonwealth countries. 70% of educated Indians I have met can’t show my country on the map of Europe, even though it’s neither small nor on “the outskirts”. I will skip explaining to you how low our divorce rates are, how we keep our extended families close or which are our traditions. For those 70% this not important because when they hear “a white person” they already “know best”. After all, they watched a few hollywood movies and had Pamela Anderson visiting Big Boss. This is “all” they need to know. So please don’t tell me that I generalise. I have been generalised and put into such “box of wisdom” already – by Indians.

I meet people. And I’m talking only about the ones I met. And if 70% of the ones I met are totally ignorant and boast about everything and anything Indian, yes, I have the right to consider it as the majority in a sense of my experience.

Well, having your own mind is far different from “perverse ideas”. As I said before, I don’t need to love everything about India. And it doesn’t make me any less of a contributor to this forum than the India-obsessed and the India-fanatics whose maximum intellectual capability is to call names.

Nik November 30, 2010 at 8:11 pm

Hahahaha did some Indian guy break your heart Shadow? Is that why you hang around here bashing Indians?

Shadow November 30, 2010 at 8:17 pm

Just to kill your another stupid idea, I’m married to an Indian guy.

Oops, I think you have just “bashed” yourself.
You make me laugh, really.

Prashanth November 30, 2010 at 8:18 pm

@Shadow

Your comment is a nice, big puzzle. :) Are you from Lithuania (or one of the neighboring Baltic countries)?

If not from Baltic countries, my other guesses:
1) Ukraine
2) Romania
3) Czech Rep.
4) Slovakia
5) Slovenia
6) Bulgaria
7) Greece
8) Macedonia
9) Yugoslavia
10) Croatia
11) Serbia

I’m sure, I must have hit at least one, as the right answer?!?! :P

Shadow November 30, 2010 at 8:27 pm

Prashanth, I like you man :)

You provided so many options, but yes, one of them is correct of course. Let me keep the details aside for now, too many name-calling wannabes would make another scene out of it.

Manny November 30, 2010 at 9:16 pm

IF you are from any of those eastern european countries, I would not call that western.

So not sure, why you are complaining about Indians complaining about western countries. You are not western.

Manny November 30, 2010 at 9:21 pm

There is no chance in hell I am going to put someone from any of the eastern European countries alongside with Americans for e.g. No offense to eastern Europeans.

:)

This is what I call Strawman argument.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

Shivani December 1, 2010 at 4:07 am

“So answering your question, what is offending towards the west – for example it is exactly what you have just did – put all westerners into one bag and pass on them some collective responsibility for all the misery.”

I’m sorry, when you call yourself a westerner and not some nationality, please expect that. In many aspects, India is a lot like Europe too. We have many languages, ethnicities, cultures and colourings of people. So when you generalize about “Indians”, I don’t know maybe you are talking about someone from Bihar and I am a Hindi speaking Delhi born girl, you are including me in that generalization too. If YOU are offended by just one generalization, I am offended by your countless others. Whatever culture you may belong to, I am sure it is far from perfect like mine, so don’t go parading your filthy attitude that “Indians have the tendency to offend me” You are offending me too!

Amit Desai December 1, 2010 at 10:07 am

What class are you talking about ma’am? What is so classy about getting around naked (animal class?)? What is so classy about sniffing cocaine (noble Aryanism?)? What is so classy about having multiple wives or sex partners? What’s so classy about being fake and superficial?

As far as I know, words like racist/bigot/asshole are used in English-speaking Western countries much more than they are used in India. In fact, such words don’t even have Indian equivelants.

Shivani December 1, 2010 at 1:11 pm

shadow is the last person to talk about class! She couldn’t reply to my arguments hence decided to stop with it because its getting old. She one twisted and judgemental person. I doubt she even has an Indian friend let alone that Indian husband. If she really is married to an Indian guy, he probably regrets marrying someone who hates his kind.

Shadow December 1, 2010 at 3:06 pm

Poor Shivani, I know you like arguing, but it’s really boring. I meant REALLY. I answered all the questions that were supposed to be answered, you get it or not, I don’t care.

Maybe Amit is a better partner in a conversation for you, since he so nicely talks about body holes, whom he touched, and then how he doesn’t give a shit about what white women say (btw, tell it to the one you touched Amit, show her the real Indian respect for a woman :D) Besides, he is so educated about everything, e.g. who sniffs cocaine and who has multiple sexual partners, yeah I’m sure you would want to be around exactly such a person, who let’s be honest… if he knows so much about all the things he so vividly talks about… he must be very closely related to that social circle :D

I told you, treat your little Indian frustrations elsewhere. Why here, on a white girl’s blog?

What you believe and what you don’t believe is none of my concerns.

Manny December 1, 2010 at 10:20 pm

Indian frustration? White girls blog?

Whats wrong with you and what is your problem? Really? Silly woman!

Shivani December 2, 2010 at 12:07 am

LOL I thought you stopped with your generalizations already?
Indian frustrations? I haven’t lived in India for more than half of my life. Idiot!

Shivani December 2, 2010 at 12:10 am

I am not the “poor” one, I pity that (imaginary?) Indian husband of yours. I am pretty sure he does not exist. You are not a good fit for inter-racial marriage, especially to a culture you despise so much.

Amit Desai December 2, 2010 at 10:12 am

Shadow,

When did I say I don’t care what white women say? You still seem to be on acid. The person who said that is Nik (scroll back and check). I never said white women are sluts (which is a value-judgement based on prejudice), I just said that they walk around 3/4 naked (which is a description of things and beings). This is your problem, you read too much into everything and find a reason to be cranky all the time.

You are not welcome to join my group anyway (why do you talk about it?). You are too openminded and classy (from the so called “Western Europe” and I highly doubt your claims about being a Western European).

Manny December 1, 2010 at 10:22 pm

She is probably married to one of those self flagellating far lefti desi. There are dime a dozen in India.

She must have found one in Sepia Mutiny.

:)

Shivani December 2, 2010 at 12:12 am

I don’t think Shadow is marriageable to anyone except a neo-nazi. “My Indian husband” Pure BS!

Manny December 2, 2010 at 12:17 am

Lets ask her.

So Shadow, how did you get to marry a “dirty Indian”?

Love of dirt? Arranged marriage todirty? or Mail Order Catalog marriage by dirt?

:)

Shadow December 2, 2010 at 12:18 am

You are both extremely stupid. That’s all I can say. Shine on cocooned minds!

Nik December 2, 2010 at 12:43 am

Shadow prove it to us, what is your husbands name?

Shivani December 2, 2010 at 2:05 am

“You are both extremely stupid”

Ok, we may be stupid. But its like the pot calling the kettle black. You are a certified racist idiot if we are mere stupid.

Joanne December 1, 2010 at 3:04 pm

A comment which makes even less sense than your comments usually do, Amit. Quite an achievement.

Who ‘gets around naked’ (and do you mean ‘go’, not ‘get’)? Are you talking about nudist colonies? What is ‘animal class’?

What does sniffing cocaine have to do with ‘noble Aryanism’, and what is ‘noble Aryanism’ anyway? Is this a reference to Nazi Germany?

‘Multiple wives’? Are you talking about Saudi Arabia here? Or the Mormons?

‘What’s so classy about being fake and superficial?’ This from the man who talks about naked white women at every opportunity.

Shadow December 1, 2010 at 3:12 pm

Joanne, he is not capable of understanding. Please don’t waste your time. The guy needs attention, you know. Let him have it online, because from his comments you can just assume how miserable his real life must be.

Nik December 1, 2010 at 8:28 pm

I don’t really favor Amit but even I understood what he said. Heres a translation for you white girls:

Whats so classy about going around dressed in hot pants and tight shirts? Whats so classy about doing drugs (common amongst caucasian females)? Whats so classy about sleeping around? Whats so classy about being vapid, fake, popculture influenced and superficial)?

Now I am only translating so don’t attack the messenger.

Joanne December 1, 2010 at 10:15 pm

“Whats so classy about doing drugs (common amongst caucasian females)?”

And ‘caucasian males’ don’t do drugs? Or is taking drugs only wrong when women do it? How do you know it’s ‘common’? What does that even mean?

“Whats so classy about going around dressed in hot pants and tight shirts?”

Are you (or Amit, but you’re his interpreter, right?) talking about women, or men, or both? Is it OK for men to walk around in public in skimpy clothing, but not for women? Why? And why do so many people outside the West seem to assume that we walk around ‘half-naked’ all the time? It’s currently minus 10 where I live, and it’s cold for a large part of the year. I spend a few months every year wrapped up in many layers of clothes with only my face visible, as do the vast majority of men and women I see in public around me. Somehow the chilly climate in much of the western world never seems to be mentioned by the ‘OMG slutty white women walk around half-naked OMG!!!’ crowd. Neither does the fact that most women spend most of their days in business clothes, and their free time in jeans and blouses and so on, not in ‘hot pants’ (seriously, what planet do you weirdos live on?)

“Whats so classy about sleeping around?”

Sex surveys invariably find that men have a lot more sexual partners than women do. Is that classy? Is sleeping around only wrong when women do it? Why? So many people are so keen to judge white women for being ‘sluts’ and ‘easy’, but ignore how ‘easy’ lots of white men are. Apparently that’s OK. Double standards rule!!!

“Whats so classy about being vapid, fake, popculture influenced and superficial)?”

What’s so classy about judging and stereotyping hundreds of millions of people based on ‘pop culture’ (as though that’s all there is to the West)?

“Heres a translation for you white girls”

We’re women, not girls.

Ahhhh, Shadow, you’re right. Why do we even bother responding to these sad little men?

Nik December 1, 2010 at 10:41 pm

To answer some of your questions: I never see men here in America walking around in skimpy clothes, thats ridiculous and you know it, its only the women. And women here have tremendous problems with drugs and alcohol even more than men now, thats just a fact.

On a side note: why are you so interested in these blogs? You aren’t connected to India in any way. Are you just looking for a fight?

Joanne December 2, 2010 at 12:31 pm

@Nik:
“I never see men here in America walking around in skimpy clothes, thats ridiculous and you know it, its only the women.”

I nearly fell off my chair laughing at that one. You’ve never seen men out in public when it’s hot wearing shorts and sleeveless t-shirts? On or near the beach only in their swimming trunks? In tight jeans and tight t-shirts? You must have incredibly selective eyesight.

“And women here have tremendous problems with drugs and alcohol even more than men now, thats just a fact.”

Evidence, please, with links. If this is a ‘fact’, it should be extremely easy for you to prove it.

“On a side note: why are you so interested in these blogs? You aren’t connected to India in any way. Are you just looking for a fight?”

I do have personal connections to India, just not via marriage. And on a side note, what’s *your* interest? Why do you feel the need to come onto someone else’s site and insult white women? As for the rest of my points, you didn’t address them, which I assume means you have no come-back.

Shadow November 30, 2010 at 9:24 pm

Manny take a map of Europe dear and learn a few things ok?

So Prashanth mentioned Greece and Czech Republic. Are these countries in eastern Europe? Please don’t make yourself funny.

First, do you see where Europe actually is? Now, do you know we have something like west, central and eastern Europe geographically, which still is not the same as ‘western’ (= cultural) division?

After that “complicated’ info reaches your mind, say something smart. And if you don’t have anything smart to say, keep your mouth shut.

Manny November 30, 2010 at 9:31 pm

Is someone from Kazakstan or Serbia “We Westerners”?

:)

I saw this movie once “Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan ”

It was awesome! LOL :)

Prashanth November 30, 2010 at 10:06 pm

@Shadow

I was just waiting to complete some work and post a clear response. Well, to be frank, people from Eastern Europe might consider they are from the western world, but Western Europeans don’t think so and they indeed treat ‘em, in a cheap way (specially, Eastern communist countries or countries that were under the influence of Russia)…and coming to Greece/Czech Republic, geographically, they might be in Western Europe, but western Europeans consider it, as Eastern (Greece is somewhere in between). There are many Western Germans, who consider even East Germany, as Eastern Europe.

And..coming to what you are suffering from (stereotyping), unfortunately it is true and you are not the only one suffering from that. There are many people from India (and Asian countries) who have experienced this, long back…and still facing this, in the DEVELOPED western world. For ex:
1) Many Indians are still called Paki’s (which is derogatory) in the UK. This is used by people, who can’t differentiate between a Indian and a Pakistani. I’m not supporting the term, but just pointing the fact.
2) Last year, I was at some Broadway show in NYC..and someone called my a ‘Slum Dog Millionaire’. What the heck? I’m not from the slum…Even if I was, it’s rude to address someone, like that.
3) A lot of Europeans still think that India is full of forests, elephants, snakes and snake charmers….or full of poverty, slums, et al.

Can you tell me, how many people from your country can tell the capital city of India, national language, etc? I’m supporting the ignorant people and their stereotyping stuff, but just wanna say ‘thats how it is’ and that India (also, the world) is in a transition phase and it will take good enough time, to see the effects of globalization. :)

Prashanth November 30, 2010 at 10:09 pm

In my last comment (last paragraph), I meant “I’m NOT supporting”, not “I’m supporting”. Sorry! :)

Shadow December 1, 2010 at 4:22 am

Prashanth, thanks a lot for the reply.

Yes, you’re right, stereotyping is not valid only to one nation, it works in many ways. I’m just pointing out an obvious lack of willingness to learn about the new. Imagine, you know how offensive it is when a person calls you “slumdog millionaire”, in the same way calling one a “slut” just because of white skin is something way beyond rude. And when a person is offending you, you no longer care why they don’t know the facts about your country, you just concentrate on the offence part.

:)

Shadow November 30, 2010 at 9:27 pm

Oh I see you know how to use a dictionary, you’re making progress! :D
Rotfl.

Shadow November 30, 2010 at 9:36 pm

Yes Manny, you are exactly going to reach your intellectual hights by learning about Europe from Borat-type movies. :D

You didn’t answer my question, let me repeat: Is Greece or Czech republic eastern Europe? Or have you googled it yet? Take your time, you might lose credibility AGAIN. :)

Manny November 30, 2010 at 9:38 pm

Greece is western. I wouldn’t consider Czech republic or any of these slavic countries as western really.

Nik November 30, 2010 at 11:09 pm

Agreed, Greece or any of the Eastern European countries are not “Western”. Shadow is definitely confused.

TAMASHA! November 30, 2010 at 11:14 pm

Greece? The cradle of western civilization is not western?

Prashanth December 1, 2010 at 12:49 am

@Tamasha

India? The cradle of civilization is not western?

Prashanth December 1, 2010 at 12:55 am

@Tamasha

My last comment was just a rhetoric question. Greece is in EU and is part of Western Europe…but there’s a considerable difference in culture, economy and development, when compared to other Western European countries. Thats the reason why I said “Greece is somewhere in between” (specially, at this point in time, as Germany and other economically strong EU countries, had to bail out Greece, from being bankrupt).

Shadow December 1, 2010 at 4:34 am

You’re both confused and already unreliable by the dreams about the world you preach.

Learn people, it doesn’t hurt. Learn what is western what is not, because you’re just funny with your definition (or rather delusion) of “westerness”.

Elena December 1, 2010 at 3:45 pm

Greece is definitely NOT a Eastern European country. It may be culturally different from Western Europe (mainly because it is Orthodox) but it is never, under any definition a Eastern European country.

TAMASHA! December 1, 2010 at 11:13 pm

India? The cradle of civilization is not western?
I guess China fell off the map.
Yes, Greece has the lowest standard of living in the European union. But they are still western Europeans culturally and liguistically.

TAMASHA! November 30, 2010 at 9:43 pm

Ha Ha HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Shadow you nailed it. Manny behave. You’re inferiority complex has gone terminal.

Manny November 30, 2010 at 9:47 pm

Whats up with you and “inferiority complex” You keep repeating them in almost all your posts?

TAMASHA! November 30, 2010 at 10:10 pm

It’s all about you Manny!

Manny November 30, 2010 at 10:16 pm

IF you can post without the ad hominum attacks and without the “Haaaa Haaa” thingi, then I may have something to respond to.

Sharell November 30, 2010 at 11:16 pm

Lol, little did I know that the inferiority complex would become so topical when I wrote about it! :-P

TAMASHA! November 30, 2010 at 10:04 pm

Oh yeah, and I’m wearing a burqa over my sari!

Manny November 30, 2010 at 10:24 pm

Does the burqa improve your looks/profile? :)

Just kidding! Just Kidding! That was a low hanging fruit, I couldn’t resist! LOL :)

TAMASHA! November 30, 2010 at 10:49 pm

I’m not sure, but it’s definitely warm! Remember I’m from California were it’s positively prude to even wear panties!

Manny December 1, 2010 at 10:24 pm

TMI?

:)

Abdullah K. November 30, 2010 at 10:23 pm

I think some of the commenters here are too hung up on what is being said rather than the idea that the commenter is trying to convey. Shadow is not too off the mark when she says that Indians tend to assume that white people are Americans. I have got this from Indians many times and when I tell them of my nationality, some of them respond, “Is Russia still there? Didn’t it break to pieces many years ago?” (Yeah, I ate them pieces).
 
However, what Shadow got wrong is crediting that ignorance to Indianess. As someone mentioned above, the average American tends to have an even more distorted and narrow minded view of what foreign people are like. People who are misinformed tend to have a black-and-white view of the world. I don’t think it is quite right to use them as straw men for entire nations.
 
@ Manny:
If Greece is “western” then Czech Republic would be more western than the countries you’d normally associate with the “west”. Greek culture is closer to Slavic culture than American or English cultures.

TAMASHA! November 30, 2010 at 10:46 pm

Abdullah is correct, Americans are a rustic and parochial lot for the most part. The American press doesn’t help by promoting the idea that the US is the center of the known universe every chance it gets.

Shadow December 1, 2010 at 4:30 am

Some people don’t understand that “soviet union era” is over. There is just no way to explain. And the question of a type “Is Russia still there?” is really a minor problem. It’s like with unification of Germany, all Germans wear the same clothes, watch the same movies, have the same savings on their accounts, but for some those on the left of the map are “western” and those on the right “commies”. I just laugh when I hear “east Europe is almost like India” Then I just say, “man you have no idea how wrong you are”.

Elena December 1, 2010 at 3:37 pm

Just a small comment about Eastern Europe – there is no general consensus about what the borders of Eastern Europe are. I find that people from the “very Western” countries tend to have a larger definition of Eastern Europe, including countries like Czech Republic and Poland, countries that those from a “very Eastern” country (like me) would never include in this concept.
My definition though is probably less geographical and more cultural, please don’t attack me over it! :)

Manny December 1, 2010 at 9:27 pm

See.. Elena is someone from an Eastern European country with class.

There are Eastern European classy women too. Not all of them are like some clueless fanatics like the ones from glorious Nation of Kazakhstan!

LOL :)

Shadow December 1, 2010 at 11:38 pm

Who is from Kazakhstan, my leftie-hater? Because there was no one from this country involved in this discussion. I’m not from this country either. You really can’t read and actually understand what you read, do you? Consider it rethorical question.

Manny December 1, 2010 at 11:48 pm

So Shadow, I was just reading your outrage at desi arranged Marriages and I was just wondering What are your views on “Mail Order Catalog Marriage” thingi by eastern “Western women”?

:)

Indian woman December 3, 2010 at 7:36 am

“Shadow is not too off the mark when she says that Indians tend to assume that white people are Americans. ”

My mom still made the mistake of assuming my boyfriend is American last night.When I told her I was still dating a white man, she jumped in on how “These white American boys leave their girlfriends”

Mom, he’s Russian. Not the same thing. :)

Shivani December 1, 2010 at 2:31 am

Ignorance is not limited to Indians. I am sure there are many uneducated, uncultured and uninformed people in your country too Shadow, whichever it may be. I do agree that India and Indians are not perfect and many are how you described them. But at 1.3 billion, almost all generalizations will fall flat. I wish you’d have an open mind Shadow.

Shadow December 1, 2010 at 4:56 am

Yeah, so since the topic of who generalized whom is becoming old, just wanted to say that regardless of the differences in our views, I really enjoyed reading the comments of people who don’t live in denial, and what’s more important, who know how to explain their opinions in a classy way, namely Prashanth and Abdullah K.

See you on the other topic perhaps. :)

No hard feelings – to all people who know how to behave :)

As for the fanatics, I had lots of fun, but you got kinda boring. :D Oh wait, rotfl again!

Shivani December 1, 2010 at 1:12 pm

“As for the fanatics, I had lots of fun, but you got kinda boring”

You have to be talking about yourself, here missy!

Shadow December 2, 2010 at 2:10 am

You must be really nuts Nik to think I would ever reveal my husband’s name to a person like you. I know you are all desperate and just hang on to the most ridiculous ideas, fine, I mean, think what you want!

At least I live where I prefer to be, with a person who also prefers to be here, and I don’t have any identity crisis like you miserable guys. Living abroad, in a place and with people which you so much hate must be really tough. Come back to India. Nobody forces you to watch naked American girls or talk to European lefties. Come back, be yourself, stay dumb!

You are so funny. Especially when you get so pissed off at everything I say. I just burst out laughing every time I read your idiotic comments. :D

Shivani December 2, 2010 at 11:20 am

You know, you remind me of this aunt of mine, she is French. She too has many problems with India and Indians. I think she only married him because she couldn’t find a guy in France who would love her. The uncle, who is my dad’s cousin, married her because of her passport. They too are very happy, just like you are. There are many Indian guys like that. Hey, if that’s your idea of marital bliss – who are we to judge?

I think when a guy is ready to sacrifice a part of him, he is definitely lacking something major in his life, like a spine, maybe?

“I know you are all desperate and just hang on to the most ridiculous ideas, fine, I mean, think what you want!”
Pot calling the kettle black? LOL

“At least I live where I prefer to be, with a person who also prefers to be here, and I don’t have any identity crisis like you miserable guys. ”
Are you sure about it? Can he ever deny at the end of the day that he is not Indian. It seems like he is ashamed of he is, really and just abandoned it for a “better life” and a “western passport”. Traded a backbone for that in the process, though :P

“I just burst out laughing every time I read your idiotic comments.”
Me too. I can’t believe someone can be as condescending as you are :P

Wait, aren’t you supposed to be gone by now? Meeting us on some other topic? LOLOLOL I think you’ll reply to this either. Why don’t you ask your husband to buy a copy of kama sutra and try things on you? It will keep you guys busy! hahaha

TAMASHA! December 2, 2010 at 12:55 pm

All right enough with the personal attacks!
I always laugh when Indians comment on the sparsity of clothing worn by western females. Come to California, you’ll see Indian women wearing everything from burqas to bikinis! My personal favorite was my fellow university student ‘Priya’. She wore hot pants, halter tops, and stripper heels to dental school nearly everyday. This was in San Francisco where it’s cold. We used to call her ‘Priapus’ behind her back.

Shivani December 2, 2010 at 1:51 pm

LOL I still can’t get over the hot pants, halter and stripper heels combo. That sounds what Priyanka Chopra wears all the time. Honestly, I have no problems with what western women wear. 95% of them are dressed appropriately. The other 5% just have attention problems, which can not be generalized to just white women. Like you said there are hoochies in INdia too. If you have a good body and feel comfortable showing it off, its ok given the occasion and the time. Nothing wrong with a bikini as long as its near the beach!

Manny December 2, 2010 at 8:54 pm

I never understood why guys with a libido would complain about women wearing less clothes!

:)

Indian woman December 2, 2010 at 11:59 pm

I admit I went through a phase wear I dressed revealing when I was younger. Some Desi guys didn’t care, but a lot of Pakistani guys were enraged. Hence, that’s where I was told “It’s okay for white girls to wear this stuff, but not Desi girls. Who do you think you are?” To some of those Desi-American boys, even a normal tank top wasn’t appropriate. As Manny said, maybe they were just gay. Who knows.

This was 10 years ago though. Times have changed, and more and more Desi-American girls are wearing skirts, shorts, dresses, heels, etc.

As to why I did dress revealing, it stemmed from something I talked about earlier. I used to say “I just like this kind of style,” BUT it truly had roots in something else. I’m over it, and don’t see the need to dress like that anymore.

Most women outgrow dressing that way anyhow.

Shivani December 3, 2010 at 1:36 am

“It’s okay for white girls to wear this stuff, but not Desi girls. Who do you think you are?” To some of those Desi-American boys, even a normal tank top wasn’t appropriate. As Manny said, maybe they were just gay. Who knows.

WHATTTT? who are they to have any opinion on what you have to wear. LOL.

I did my own rebelling when I was 15. I guess you have to make some faux-pas to really learn how to dress amazingly, don’t you?

Shadow December 2, 2010 at 1:06 pm

Yeah Shivani, just that all you say is a total crap. :D

My husband was well settled where we are long time before we met. He didn’t need a passport, or anything of those hopeless things usually guys without a spine as you call them, haunt for. :D

Without a spine is to have a gf in Europe/States, and then after a few years come back to India because mommy didn’t approve. hahaha, that’s exactly what most “committed” Indian guys do.

Luckily, my man has the strenght, maturity and independence to do what he wants – that including, do what most Indians don’t tolerate, and secretly are jealous of. And he doesn’t need to be ashamed of anything, because he decides to drop the shameful behaviour Indians so cherish (dowry, skin colour obsession, “what will others think” attitude)

But what can you know about it, after all, you are so defensive about things which don’t concern me at all! :D

Shivani December 2, 2010 at 1:58 pm

Is there a thing you like about Indians/India, though? I am curious!

Mohit Gupta December 2, 2010 at 5:49 pm

@ Shadow

I support you. Party Hila Denge..!!! :)

Nik December 2, 2010 at 9:03 pm

Are you her husband Mohit?

Shadow December 2, 2010 at 9:15 pm

@Shivani

Many things, for a few most important factors that I mentioned, go to forum, topic about India becoming superpower. (click on debater’s den) I’ve written about both positives and negatives which are valid for that particular topic.

Other things about India that I like, just thought on the spot, no particular order:
- food, linguistic variety, fauna and flora, architecture (temples!), discipline at schools development of techno- and bio- industry, international university cooperation and many study abroad programmes, cashmere wool (scarfs, I have a dozen minimum!), kitchen utensils (i.e. pressure cooker, rice cooker, grinders [Indian are fantastic], etc), tongue cleaners, leather chappals, Gulab jamun, Barfi, Laddu, (sweets in general), ayurvedic medicine, sandal wood scented intems (candles, agarbatti), books by Indian authors (Kiran Desai, Anita Desai, Jhumpa Lahiri, Amitav Ghosh, Hari Kunzru and so on…), Kerala cinema (my favourite movie “four women” by Adoor Gopalakrishnan), practically all movies by Mira Nair, jewelery (golden ornaments!), patterned bedsheets and pillow cases (royal sleep!), empathy (I find Indians effectively connect with people who suffer), sharing with the others, maintaining balance between work and private life (as having time for both), high aspirations (in terms of education and career)

as to your other questions:
I have no experience (relationship-wise) with any other Indians, apart from my husband. Nor was it ever my plan to be in a relationship with an Indian or a foreigner exactly. It just happened that we met each other, fell in love, found out that we have the same values and want the same things from life. Of course, I love him as a whole package, that includes the fact, that he is an Indian. But it’s not like his Indianness shouts to me out every day. He himself knows best what is good and what is bad about India – and he tells me a lot about it. On the opposite, I do the same when it comes to my home country. We are both aware of positives and shortcomings in our cultures, and take the best of both.

With all that, life shows that there are significantly more Indians than my home mates, who have problems with our intercultural relationship. Hence my negative attitudes to certain Indian customs and beliefs. Which doesn’t mean I have any regrets concerning my marriage and in wider sense, my contact with India.

I’m very direct and treat people with the same attitude. If I see a white racist bloke telling me that “white and brown don’t go together” I tell him, that he is a dumbass. In the same case, when an old Indian lady tells me “I know how white women are, we don’t want them in our family. What will neighbours think?” I consider this as equally dumb comment.

Else, I highlight this once more, I don’t hate India. I just think many Indians lack the ability to look at themselves with the same judgemental attitude they approach the others with. And when that happens, intercultural contact becomes very crippled – which results in, for example, having only half of the family on your side because the other was “too good to accept it”, or blackmailing, disowning and other cheap threats of that sort. (btw, examples are not my story, but from couples like us, with whom we are good friends).

Manny December 2, 2010 at 9:59 pm

I never would have guessed from reading your other posts here.

;)

Mohit Gupta December 3, 2010 at 12:03 am

Yes , Yes , Yes.. !!! ;)

I always knew , you love India .. :)

I am surprised , you like so many things about India , definitely more than me.

Shivani December 3, 2010 at 1:34 am

Ok Shadow…we are cool now. Just don’t generalize, that’s all I ask of you. If you are in such a happy relationship with an Indian man, I don’t know why you whine about the negatives of India so much. Maybe his family didn’t accept you and or are haughty and pretentious…well, welcome to 90% of Indian families with sons. I can’t imagine getting married to an Indian guy (who is in India) because of the cultural baggage. Its just a trade-off you make for love, so don’t extend one bad thing to to the entire 1.3 billion! :)

Shadow December 3, 2010 at 1:41 am

Sure! :D

Why wouldn’t you marry a guy who lives in India? Maybe if he was deeply in love, he would move to your place and leave the “baggage” behind? ;-)

Shivani December 3, 2010 at 2:17 am

For me to fall in love with an Indian guy, I would have to be in India for longer than 2 weeks in a given year. Its probably not happening. I don’t believe in arranged marriages.

Manny December 3, 2010 at 5:56 am

I have a Thelgu friend who is married to a Gora and he is from Florida and a navy brat. He too is my buddy. They invited me and a few other friends over for dinner. I was kind of quietly watching them interact and I noticed that she was running the house like a regular Thelugu gal and she was ordering him around to do this and do that. The dinner was totally Andhra fare including Gongura pickle and extremely spicy stuff.

He was so desi domesticated that he was happily eating dinner with his hands. Even I had to request a fork. I am ok with using my hands for Roti and dosa but not rice.

I felt so bad for my buddy Nick to see him like this and felt that I had to stick up for him..You know… guy to guy an all… So over dinner I cautioned him, ‘Nick, you better stop listening to her, otherwise pretty soon you are going to be walking around Florida with a Dhoti and a Towel on your head.’. LOL :)

Shivani December 3, 2010 at 7:19 am

Haha Manny, I am not that Indian. I love India, but not fanatically. I’d rather eat pizza over paratha. So as long as the guy (whichever race he may be from) can make me a mean pizza, I don’t care if he wears a turban or dhoti. I am flexible like that.

Elena December 2, 2010 at 9:57 pm

@ Shadow

I don’t know why you have been attacked by everybody on this forum, I started reading higher and higher and can’t find the begging of the issue. Anyway, from reading this last comment you made, just wanted to say that what you wrote makes sense and should not offend anyone.
I am in an inter-cultural relationship, having an Indian boyfriend, and I figure he knew from the very first moment I am not Indian and liked me despite this, so I am not going to become one.
I am actually the child of an intercultural relationship myself, and spent a lot of the day today on a web site on which natives of both nationalities that flow in my blood have been throwing insults at each other, judging each other through stereotypes and bad experiences. It got me thinking – what if me and my boyfriend get married and have children, how would they feel if the stumbled across this thread, in which either his/her mother’s or father’s race and culture is being soiled like this…

Shadow December 2, 2010 at 10:24 pm

Thanks for speaking from your experience :)

I don’t know Elena, I think bias and ostracism directed towards mixed couples and multi-ethinc person will always be there, because people prefer to protect their own way of living, doesn’t matter good or bad.

When they see a couple from completely different worlds managing differences without problems and being honestly happy, they treat it as an insult to the original customs of each person separately. And then the “meat-throwing” starts.

We have never had any cultural issues in our relationship, it was pretty clear from the begining that there are no “hidden surprises”. I never accepted the concept of arranged marriage, my husband would never accept a girl who smokes or has alcohol related problems. Since neither of us smokes or drinks, and since we developed our relationship in a western way, neither of the unaccepted issues was ever a problem.

However, from time to time we meet people who present their “brilliant” opinions on how “this is wrong”.

Where can we find solution? I don’t know if there is one. Probably living on “neutral grounds” helps a lot. At least in our case – we live in a country which is not a homeland for any of us. Plus, this is a nice cosmopolitan environment, not any particular community.

You are right, being “different” is not easy at all.

Shadow December 2, 2010 at 10:46 pm

And yes, obviously there are people writing about their intercultural relationships. For most of the part these people are obsessed with India or overwhelmed with new experinces which they want to let out on a blog. I’m neither of these, that’s why you hate it so much that “I dare” to speak about things I don’t like.

Simply put, you can’t take any critique!

Manny December 2, 2010 at 10:55 pm

Sharell has been a good critique here dearie.

The thing is, what is your motive? Is your motive to take a piss? yes or no? Now, that’s the question that would answer to why others are taking a piss at YOU.

;)

Nik December 3, 2010 at 10:44 am

There are plenty of critiques here by the owner of this blog. She just posted one on hygiene in India. She has posted many others as well. I don’t understand what your point is? In the western world there are far more critiques of India than there are compliments. And for some reason people think its ok to say these things when it wouldn’t be ok to say such things about Africans or others. Maybe that is why you are seeing people being so defensive. Try to understand other Indians point of view. Its the least you can do since you are married to one.

Shadow December 2, 2010 at 11:10 pm

Manny,

hahaha, take a piss – what a language! such a gentleman! :S jeez, you really need help.

what you do is definetely pissing yourself off. your comments really don’t bother me. i just reply, you start all arguments over and over. if you didn’t continue with your stupid accusations, this conversation would be long over.

But that’s your motive, you live by being Sharell’s blog celebrity :D

Manny December 2, 2010 at 11:17 pm

“Taking a Piss at someone” is a colloquial term for trying insult someone. Its not literal as in uriniating.

sheesh!

Manny December 2, 2010 at 11:41 pm

Now since you mention it, I feel guilty that we have hijacked poor Sharell’s blog.

:P

surya December 3, 2010 at 2:14 am

Shadow,
how many weeks/months did you actually live in India? (With your in laws included). Whats your nation of birth/domicile, just asking? For mysef I live in midwest, USA.

On the right side of this page among the list of sharells favorite blogs you will find ‘white hindu’ (blog link) there;explore it, the blog owner had never ever visited India/Nepal/Bali etc etc.. compare her posts with those of cool blogger and Indian woman here.
I can say almost all Indians view favorably the attitudes and mindset of the former and not the latter two- Simply her voluntary conservative ‘Indianness’ weighs in here in her favor. Not the race or nation of birth or domicile. You used ‘jealousy’ a few times in your posts. If you are happy, so be it, everyone else is happy for you. So forget about jealousy. No one is. Sharell as well liked Indianness first and only then later she liked an Indian . Her bonding with India has attracted us more than the later marriage (to an Indian). Remember, just like americans, Indians are the worst critics of India. DId you ask your husband what he is doing to eradicate corruption/ enforce cleanliness? Poverty from over population is the underlying core problem.

Please dont compare every other (predominantlly) white nation on equal terms with USA. Having lived in Europe I know little more than that…Even Canadaians hesitate to do so. Cheers.