“You whites think you’re so much better.” “You’ve married someone beneath yourself.”
These are common comments that I hear, particularly on this blog. And sadly, they mostly come from Indians. I find such views to be confounding and even irritating. The way I see it, there is no superior or inferior culture. We are all people…. all the same creations of God (and if you believe in reincarnation, we can be born into any culture and have probably existed in other cultures). But I do wonder where these views come from?
What exactly do Indians have to feel inferior about and why? They are resilient, hardworking, intelligent, and adaptable people.
Are us whites to blame? I don’t think so. Sure, there are racists everywhere, in every culture. However, the foreign tourists that come to India don’t usually treat Indians as inferior or second rate. In fact, they usually show more manners and respect towards those Indians doing menial jobs (waiters, taxi drivers, hotel staff) than Indians themselves do. I speak to all people the same way in India, and say thank you to everyone from the doctor to the security staff that stamp my receipt at the supermarket. Us whites also don’t go around flaunting our white skin like some Indians think we do. In fact, most of us want to be browner, and spend so much time ridiculously cooking ourselves in the sun. We hate the idea of our “white fat” showing (my family refused to reveal their tummies in saris), and think brown skin is much more pleasing to the eye.
But what about the British occupation of India? Many Indians claim that the British, and their rule in India, were responsible for making Indians feel inferior. There may be some truth in this, but not in the most obvious way. I recently read a fascinating book called Being Indian by Pavan K. Varma, who has had a distinguished international public service career. The book aims to demolish misconceptions about India and Indians, and examine what makes Indians tick.
According to the author, the British succeeded quite spectacularly in creating an elite group of Indians patterned after them. As a colonial power in India, Britain was opposed. But as a democracy, a strong military force, and economic power, Britain was admired. Some of the elite Indians managed to sustain their newly acquired western characteristics without diminishing themselves as Indians (Jawaharlal Nehru, for example, was proud to be an Indian despite often wondering whether he belonged in the east or the west). However, most did not. Instead they tended to measure their self-worth in terms of how well they were able to imitate British and western lifestyles. In doing so, they set an unfortunate standard for other Indians in the future, and created a way of thinking that anything Indian was inferior to anything western.
The author goes on to say that the insecurity manifests itself in an excessive sensitivity to any criticism or praise coming from the west. Criticism is countered with “disproportionate aggression”, while praise is welcomed with “unbecoming effusiveness”. I have experienced this often. On the occasions that I happen to forget that India is not “my country” and say something negative, I’m quickly reminded of it by the harsh responses I receive in return. “Stop making India look so bad. What right do you have to criticise India?”, I’m told. “You don’t have to be here if you don’t like it”. I don’t hold any such precious feelings about the country that I do come from. If someone who lives in Australia and has made it their home says something negative, I’ll analyse it objectively, and if they’re right, tell them so. No country is perfect.
So, are the author’s observations correct? Did Indians create their own inferiority complex by trying to imitate the British? If not, where does this notion of western superiority come from? And from some Indians who have never even visited the west! What do Indians really feel inferior about and why, to the point that they will tell me I’ve married below myself? I’m curious to know.
(Note: please excuse me for any generalisations. And to clarify, this post is mainly based on Indians in India, not those living successfully abroad who have more realistic views of the west).
© 2010, Diary of a White Indian Housewife. All rights reserved. Do not copy and reproduce text or images without permission.
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Satish
“And if they were pro-Hindu then no need for the Hindu Mahasabha right?”
———————————————————————————————-
The formation of Hindu Mahasabha was not the result of Congress beeing anti-Hindu.Hindu Mahasabha was formed in 1915 to tackle the muslim separatism of Muslim League ,which was formed in 1906.
Mahasabha , infact was never a competetor for congress but an another option for Hindu , who were supporter of a Hindu Nation. While most of the Hindus connected well with Congress.And Most of the muslims connected well with Muslim League
And it has no logic that two different parties of same ideology cant exist together in a country.Take the example of MNS and SHIVSENSA. They are ideologically same but parted with the inheritance issue.SP of Mulayam and RJD of Lalu also have same ideology. DMK and AIDMK also have same ideology but they exist together.
According to historians ..
“In the late 19th century an Indian nationalist movement developed with the Indian National Congress being founded in 1885 as a forum, that became a political party subsequently. The Congress made no conscious efforts to enlist the Muslim community in its struggle for Indian independence. Although some Muslims were active in the Congress, majority of Muslim leaders did not trust the Hindu predominance and most of the Muslims remained reluctant to join the Congress Party.
A turning point came in 1900 when the British administration in the largest Indian state, the United Provinces (now Uttar Pradesh), acceded to popular demands and made Hindi, written in the Devanagari script, the official language. This seemed to aggravate minority fears that the Hindu majority would seek to suppress their religion in an independent India. A British official, Sir Percival Griffiths, wrote of these perceptions: “the minority belief that their interest must be regarded as completely separate from those of the majarity, and that ethnic tensions between the two communities was possible.”
Who the heck cares. Way too much history. Get to the point. what are you trying to say. You feel inferior and want to give an explanation.
Rupal Desai ,
Go to school , Kid. If you really want to know what I am talking about then you should read the whole discussion and then comment.
Otherwise , you are nothing better then those who read one verse of “Quran” and say “Islam is violent religion”.
For you , a liitle advice is that you should read in totality before pressing any charge of feeling inferior which is totally out of place and context.
@ toe, “…The real Hindus from somewhere(preferably Europe) who taught the Dravidian Hinduism. White/light brown Indo Europeans and dark brown/Black Dravidians…”
Strange! Now these dark skinned Dravidians are teaching the Europeans in their own lands.
@ Praveen, “…INDIA is a word which unites Indians much more than the word “hindu”…”
Though, both the terms India and Hindu are misnomers and have no truthful/logical meaning to Indians or Hindus. The Indians or Hindus were so secular that they could not come up with a common name for them or their land, other than the epic term Bharat or the Vedic term Aryavrat.
@ amit bhai
“The Indians or Hindus were so secular that they could not come up with a common name for them or their land, other than the epic term Bharat or the Vedic term Aryavrat.”
———————————————————————————————
If its in sarcastic tone then I think I should mention that neither “Bharat” nor “Aryavarta” has anything to do Religion.
Toe is a great Indian name.
Many Indian feats were carried on Indian Toes of the past.
Truth.
Seriously guys, are you actually using real names?
Its the Internet, not your grandma’s house.
I do use my real name, which is a stupid thing to do, I guess. I’m just counting on the watchman, the extreme common-ness of my name, and dynamic IP addressing to keep me safe. Lol.
hello,
I liked your blog. right now I am reading ‘eat pray love’.. so that may be the reason I like that someone from abroad wants to be part of India.
About our inferoirity complex, it may be because, Speaking English fluently is considered very prestigious. also people dream about getting settled in abroad. We are proud of our nation but still don’t want to live here for its betterment. we want Money!! so if going to your place is considered so important then people actually living there must be very superior…that may be our funda..
I will be honest, I too sometimes feel I am inferior. but very rarely though..
your blog is nice…
It makes no sense to suggest that Indians created their own inferiority complex. To say so, would imply that they played a bigger part in spreading the idea of western superiority than the empires that colonised them in the first place. From Colonisation, came colonial mentality, something which has been manifesting and spreading since the 1500′s.
Rita Banerji
Well actually — there was blatant racism in India long before the British. Check out the Vedas — the lowest caste are referred to by the most outrageous racial epithets — Blah Blah Blah Blah!
Whats up with you Bengalies? Sheesh! Gawd Dang, many of y’all have gone mad I suspect. You have lost all perspective. Bengali communistic culture has killed every bone of fair play in your body.
You know, the caste thingi is nothing to crow about I admit? But lets put this in perspective. The Caste thingi never ever went far down and evil as Ethnic cleansing of American Indians using the Bible as a justification, or Slavery or Lynchings or Jim Crowe or what Martin Luther in his anti semtic rantings which triggered the Holocaust that turned an entire church going chirstian country of Germany into lunatics. And your own Bengali who consider Chandra Bose a hero, the man who colluded with the Nazis. Nothing close to that was every done by the Caste system in its 5000 year of history.
Caste system although is not good, its one of offense of giving slight. So what if a Brahmin has a bath when he comes in touch with someone he considers “untouchable”? He is only running to his house to have a bath, he is not murdering the other person. This is a sin of being silly or giving offense of slight.
If the a certain section wants to live by themselves and marry within themselves, how is that any more evil than the Amish Christians of the United states who would not socialize or marry from outside their groups. No one calls them evil?
Why is that after living together as christians (Blacks and whites) for 300 years that they hardly marry one another? We all saw the christian untouchables for how there were treated during Katrina disaster in the US. How does that compare to the Indian caste system my dear?
FYI, for full disclosure I am somewhere in the middle of the caste totem pole. I am not a Brahmin. But I need to put this in perspective for the sake of fair play. For these Bengali Iefties have gone completely mad.
You insult my nation – the German nation – how dare you ?
What do you know about Martin Luther, what do you know about the generation of my fathers and grandfathers ? Nothing, right; so please be aware of this and realize that some of the historical facts that you think are a reflection of reality may be based on propaganda
@Eduardo-
Please never mind our Mr Manny, he is our resident Hindu Talibani & hate spewing bigot. He also seems to be suffering some sort of premature senile dementia as he often repeats himself without making much sense.
I lived in Berlin in 1989 when the WALL came down, what a party!!!!!!!!!!!
Manny the Moron needs an Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart (Antifaschistischer Schutzwall) in his brain.
Vicious attack on me? Hmmm…
What I know of Martin Luther? He is an anti semite who pretty much helped an entire nation go mad in the 40s on the account of his anti Semitic rantings in his book “Jews and their lies”
Now, thats not an opinion. That’s a factual statement I am making.
Eduardo! Go ahead and dispute that fact!
Actually not just a nation. In fact, an entire continent. Just wiki search on “Blood Liable”. What a nasty culture.
Manny-
At least spell it correctly ‘BLOOD LIBEL’ not ‘blood liable’ you dope.
All right let me spell it right. “Blood Libel”.
More importantly lets see what it is.
Blood libel (also blood accusation[1][2]) is a false accusation or claim[3][4][5] that religious minorities, usually Jews, murder children to use their blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals and holidays.[1][2][6] Historically, these claims—alongside those of well poisoning and host desecration—have been a major theme in European persecution of Jews.[4]
Blood libels typically allege that Jews require human blood for the baking of matzos for Passover, although this element was absent in the earliest cases that claimed (the contemporary) Jews reenacted the crucifixion. The accusations often assert that the blood of Christian children is especially coveted, and, historically, blood libel claims have been made to account for otherwise unexplained deaths of children. In some cases, the alleged victim of human sacrifice has become venerated as a martyr, a holy figure around whom a martyr cult might arise. Four of these have been previously canonized as saints, namely William of Norwich, Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln, Simon of Trent (Simon was decanonized[7] in the 20th century), and Gavriil Belostoksky who remains canonized in the Russian Orthodox Church.
In Jewish lore, blood libels were the impetus for the creation of the Golem of Prague by Rabbi Judah Loew ben Bezalel in the 16th century.[8] According to Walter Laqueur:
Altogether, there have been about 150 recorded cases of blood libel (not to mention thousands of rumors) that resulted in the arrest and killing of Jews throughout history, most of them in the Middle Ages… In almost every case, Jews were murdered, sometimes by a mob, sometimes following torture and a trial.[9]
PS: Today, this blood libel is being spread by Islamists in the middle east. Arabs are spreading this lie around that Isralies kill Palestinian children and use their blood to make Matza balls for their passover!
The Nazi antisemitism has moved on from Europe to the Arab/Islamic world.
@Manny-
You know if you’re going to copy & paste from wikipedia at least say so.
You neglected to copy & paste the part that states how BLOOD LIBEL (carefully note spelling) was started by a NON CHRISTIAN-
he origins of the blood libel are found in the writings of to the Graeco-Egyptian author Apion, who claimed that Jews sacrificed Greek victims in their temple.[3] Apion repeated anti-Jewish slurs and “absurd calumnies” first made by Posidonius and Apollonius Molon in the 1st century BCE.[13] This resulted in an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in which thousands of Jews died.[14][not specific enough to verify] Socrates Scholasticus (fl. 5th Century) reported that some Jews in a drunken frolic bound a Christian child on a cross in mockery of the death of Christ and scourged him until he died.[15]
Now this is just plain DUMB-
‘The Nazi antisemitism has moved on from Europe to the Arab/Islamic world.’
No my dear Manny, Arabs are SEMITES just like JEWS.
Don’t you get it? ARAB ARE SEMITES. JEWS ARE SEMITES. ARABS ARE NOT ANTISEMITIC.
Arabs and Jews have disliked each other ever since the time of Abraham with the birth of Isaac and Ishmael, not since the advent of NAZISM.
Manny, go back school.
Use your brain for something other keeping your ears apart.
Started by a non christian? This is what I call, the “suicide bombing” culture was started by the Sri lankan Tamil defense.
Maybe it was started by non christians…but it was perfected by the Euro christians.
@Manny-
Anyone who could write such AN ASSININE statement as this-
‘The Nazi antisemitism has moved on from Europe to the Arab/Islamic world.’
Now we have antisemic semites?
How stupid can you get?
All right.. now you are pissed at me.
You restarted this crap today!
@Manny-
no, if you could read & comprehend written English it was ‘Eduardo’ whom started this round.
Yeah..he started it..but you were all over it like a fly on sheet!
@Manny-
You really shouldn’t start things you can’t finish.
Tamasha wins again!
Oh Lord! Tamsha!
But Manny,
Martin Luther also wrote as early as 1516, Luther wrote,
“…[M]any people are proud with marvelous stupidity when they call the Jews dogs, evildoers, or whatever they like, while they too, and equally, do not realize who or what they are in the sight of God”.
In 1523, Luther advised kindness toward the Jews in ‘That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew’.
Scholars’ debate about Luther’s influence is whether it is anachronistic to view his work as a precursor of the racial antisemitism of the National Socialists. Some scholars see Luther’s influence as limited, and the Nazis’ use of his work as opportunistic.
Johannes Wallmann argues that Luther’s writings against the Jews were largely ignored in the 18th and 19th centuries, and that there was no continuity between Luther’s thought and Nazi ideology. Uwe Siemon-Netto agreed, arguing that it was because the Nazis were already anti-Semites that they revived Luther’s work. Hans J. Hillerbrand agreed that to focus on Luther was to adopt an essentially ahistorical perspective of Nazi antisemitism that ignored other contributory factors in German history. Similarly, Roland Bainton, noted church historian and Luther biographer, wrote “One could wish that Luther had died before ever [On the Jews and Their Lies] was written. His position was entirely religious and in no respect racial.”
Here is the full truth that you do not know or are not disclosing.
Martin Luther was very very friendly with the Jews …….at first. He kept saying all those nice things about them …..with the hope they would all convert. He tried his darndest to convert them. He was so obsessed with converting all the Jews to christianity.
It was when he realized in his older age that the Jews were not going to convert he turned against them. It was much later in his age, he wrote those anti semtic rants against the Jews!
So stop BSing Tamasha.
Manny-
The only point you have is at the top of your head.
What you are PURPOSEFULLY leaving out is that Martin Luther also was vehemently antiCATHOLIC, also wrote ‘Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants’, and wrote against resisting the Turks in his 1518 ‘Explanation of the Ninety-five Theses’, provoking accusations of defeatism. He saw the Turks as a scourge sent to punish Christians by God, as agents of the Biblical apocalypse that would destroy the antichrist, whom Luther believed to be the papacy, and the Roman Church. Luther saw the Muslim faith as a tool of the devil, he was indifferent to its practice: “Let the Turk believe and live as he will, just as one lets the papacy and other false Christians live.”
The Nazi use of Martin Luther’s antiJewish rhetoric was at best opportunistic & was largely ignored in the 18th & 19th centuries.
Get over yourself, Manny.
You can do better than blaming Martin luther for Hitler’s madness.
No apologist can claim that Martin Luther bore his anti-Jewishness out of youthful naivete’, uneducation, or out of unfounded Christianity. On the contrary, Luther in his youth expressed a great optimism about Jewish conversion to Christianity. But in his later years, Luther began to realize that the Jews would not convert to his wishes. His anti-Jewishness grew slowly over time. His logic came not from science or reason, but rather from Scripture and his Faith. His “On the Jews and Their Lies” shows remarkable study into the Bible and fanatical biblical reasoning. Luther, at age 60 wrote this dangerous “little” book at the prime of his maturity, and in full knowledge in support of his beliefs and Christianity.
Few people today realize that Luther wrote ‘On the Jews and Their Lies.’ (He also wrote such works like “Against the Sabbatarians.”) Freethinkers should become aware of the anti-Semitic influence that Luther has brought on the world. His vehement attack on Jews and his powerful influence on the believers of the Germans has brought a new hypothesis to mind: that the Jewish holocaust, and indeed, the eliminationist form of anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany may not have occurred without the influence from Luther’s book “On the Jews and Their Lies.”
Walter Buch, the head of the Nazi Party court, admitted Luther’s influence on Nazi Germany:
When Luther turned his attention to the Jews, after he completed his translation of the Bible, he left behind “on the Jews and their Lies” for posterity.
-cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall’s The Holy Reich]
Many people confess their amazement that Hitler preaches ideas which they have always held…. From the Middle Ages we can look to the same example in Martin Luther. What stirred in the soul and spirit of the German people of that time, finally found expression in his person, in his words and deeds.
-”Geist und Kampf” (speech), Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
“And your own Bengali who consider Chandra Bose a hero, the man who colluded with the Nazis.”
@Manny
Not many Germans knew of the concentration camps set up by Hitler…So, probably Mr.Bose didn’t knew much about that, when he went to meet Hitler. I’m not supporting him, but just trying to speculate (BTW, Ghandhi rocks!). If Hitler wasn’t involved in holocaust or hate crimes, he would have been probably hailed as a Hero. When I said this, don’t get me wrong (and I detest Hitler, for his discriminatory policies, hate crimes, Eugenics, et al)…By the way, Mr. Bose was married to an Austrian and I guess his daughter lives in Augsburg, Germany.
Indians are racist by nature…far more racist than most whites I have met (except maybe the KKK/nazi types). Fair skin and recessed facial features are coveted by Indians. I hear all the time, even my own mom saying: ‘is the girl you are meeting FAIR?’…its an inherent part of indian racism, and it is this same racism that makes way for the inferiority complex, since most of the indians (who are racist) are also dark-skinned.
lavakava,
So how many Indians have been killed or enslaved or lynched because of their preference for fair skin?
Great Blog !!
Yes, I’m one of those people in the west but I’m Indian enough. Actually born and brought up there.
Now, the reason for the inferiority is not that hard to explain. India is so diverse and so are Indians. Indian guys are in NASA, they are plastic surgeons and professors etc. At the same time the poor people in India or the fresh migrants are not sophisticated. It is not unusual for an Indian man in India to cheat, force, lie or do whatever to make money. Some of this culture is seen in New migrants too (but generally the groom themselves and become the scientists and doctors described before)
Now, What is the problem ? Stereo-typing !! Because the junk and the cream are both “Indians” it puts the inferiority thing right up there . Both downwards by the whites and within the Indians themselves.
Hmm, great to change these attitudes but isn’t it easy to explain ? Thanks for reading
“It is not unusual for an Indian man in India to cheat, force, lie or do whatever to make money.”
Hi,
Great to know , you are Indian , but I thought that all man irrespective of nationality , cheat , force , lie or do whatever to make money.
Think about it and dont put all egg in one basket. please.
Dear White Indian Housewife… I feel very sad for your to live in India and deal with the backwardness there…lol… otherwise I think its a fascinating country with a lot of good things to do. I’ve done a lot of research into why Indians (the majority) suffer from an Inferiority Complex…and it’s true even Indians living in the west somewhat suffer from it. But not all Indians suffer from a complex – I come from a wealthy, very upper class aristocratic background and I was born with blue eyes, very light skin and brown hair. I lived in India till the age of 17 and moved to the US after that..but now I live in Europe. All my life in India I had no friends, and I got constantly bullied at school, most people would hate me for my looks and get jealous of me everywhere I went. When I moved to the US first and came in contact with Indians born / raised in the US – they were a bit better but weird in their own way… however other Indians who had just moved to the US were worse – they hated me even more and kept putting me down. I do not suffer from any superiority or inferiority complex but India is a very poor country for the most part – and is only rising now… and due to India’s history as well as racial mixes – north, south, east, west divide, all the languages and different cultures that exist in India is what has given a large number of Indians this sort of an Inferiority complex. There is no one skin colour in India – in the north if you went up to kashmir there are very white skinned people… and in the south they are darker than some blacks. In the east they all look like orientals and in the west they look medium to dark brown with their own distinctive look. Lets also face it – most Indians aren’t good looking people – there are a billion + indians and I would say 10% are stunning however 90% are very average to bad looking and due to poverty they are often under-nourished with badly defined bodies. I think it is also UNFAIR to lump all Indians into one category – because “Indian” is not a race – it is a nationality and within India there are orientals, dravidians, aryans as well as a mix of many other races and cultures. When I tell people in Europe that I am an Indian they get shocked and cannot believe me at all – because most people’s perception of an Indian is a brown skinned person with thick black hair and dark eyes – which is very true for the majority of the country but then it’s a HUGE country and a huge population almost 4 times the population of USA.
This is also what I feel – the very wealthy and very poor in India don’t suffer from any complexes… it’s mostly the middle class – the rich and the poor have nothing to worry about nor do they care. The rich Indians are very secure with themselves and their money and the poor have nothing to lose so they have no such complexes. But the middle class in India has a tough life – they are very over burdened by pressures from society to exceed in Life and become wealthy and they are very obsessed with it too. It’s not like in Europe where middle class people believe in a socialist system and are happy with their jobs and lives.. In India there is no social security which creates a lot of competitiveness and jealousy amongst the people… which further creates complexes of all kinds. I find a lot of middle class Indians to be rude, abusive and nasty to me for no reason – just the way I look and behave.. but a lot of them are also nice to me and admire me and wish to be like me. I generally avoid most Indians now because I know they will attack me like they attack you. I am Indian but look European so if I stuck to other Indians I would never be accepted – this is why I stick to peopel who do accept me – and funny enough I never faced any issues with Black people either – despite their darker skin I think Blacks are much more secure with themselves than Indians – I am thinking the reason for that is because Blacks more or less look the same everywhere and don’t have such huge differences however Orientals suffer a big complex too – probably even worse than Indians. In western countries every oriental girl dreams of marrying a white guy because they hate themselves and want mixed race children.
Hi BlueEyedIndian, you have raised some very interesting points there. And I do think you’re quite correct with what you’re saying. The middle class have so much pressure on them to succeed, and this leads to obsession with status and proving that they’ve “made it”. There is a huge struggle to be better than others, and constant comparisons with how others are doing which adds to the problem. The middle class here is very different to the middle class where I come from, which like you mentioned is content with their lives. I guess it’s because the general standard of living is much better in developed countries. I’m just very unused to this obsession with status! In my family in Australia we have everyone from doctors to farmers… and we’re all viewed equally and treat everyone equally.
Thank you for putting it in perspective for me. I’m sorry to hear that you’ve also been on the receiving end of some not very nice behaviour.
BlueEyedIndian is the exact example of the “Indian with an inferiority complext”
Please do elaborate and educate me! What he says makes sense to me based on my experience….
I’ll have to write thesis on what what he said there..every line he says there reeks of “Look at me..I am different than those ugly Indians”. this is most likely from the psychosis of a deep self loathing person.
I have to agree with you Manny, i read it and i was like you’ve seriously got to stfu about your damn blue eyes.
And if you want another good example of “Indians with inferiroity complex”, wait for someone to login with a moniker “FairskinnedIndian”.
I don’t want another example… I just want your explanation.
Please enlighten me.
As far as I’m concerned, blue eyed is just a description. Just like when I refer to myself as “white” here, some people have made remarks along the lines that I’m portraying myself as “superior” whereas I’m just describing myself. I don’t like to call myself a foreigner anymore, so I say I’m white to differentiate myself. It doesn’t mean anything past that.
True about what you said. Infact the reason some Indians may have made that assumption that you may have superiority complex is they judged you like they would another Indian. Indians for the most part do not make such self identity. Thats why many of us are tuned to these things. I know I cannot prove these things. Its a quick gut reaction and an impression. I could be wrong..but I doubt it.
It’s all very complicated and confusing the way the Indian mind works at times. Okay, tell me what you think of the name “Beautiful Brown” then.
He posted a comment over on another post!
Thats probably a shitty guy, with a shitty moniker and….with a shitty opinion!
Haha! Comedian.
He Sure is!
LOL
I would think he is just an unsophisticated fellow who has a thing for white women. Beyond that its difficult to say.
One of “those kinds” of people you referred to perhaps?
But seriously, here is the contrast with this complex thing. If I called myself “beautiful white” someone would definitely think I had a superiority complex going on! But Beautiful Brown isn’t taken in the same way.
It is not complex if you are deeply inside it.
“Beautiful Brown” is more benign. But beyond just that name, its difficult to say, I would have to read his/her post to come to a reasonable position.
He wanted to get “sexy” with a white woman! Namely another reader called LA.
Here it is:
http://www.whiteindianhousewife.com/2010/02/do-indian-men-generally-like-white-women/comment-page-14/#comment-17436
I agree with most of the stuff, posted by BlueEyedIndian (Indian with blue eyes – rare, but possible), apart from the fact that he/she is treated not so good, by the middle-class Indians, which I believe is not totally true. It might be something to do with jealousy, not hatred. Maybe BlueEyedIndian is rich and snobby?!?! If that’s the case, it is true everywhere in the world.
India has gone through a lot and is tightly packed with diverse set of people….Just imagine this kinda population figures for countries in Europe (or any other country in the western world)….In this scenario, I’m sure there will be some more wars and some more millions wiped out, to make room for powerful people, to live with enough resources. Also, I believe these problems will appear in other countries, if they had the same set up, as India. Indeed, the western countries had the same problems, 50 years back – (Religion, God, Inter-cultural marriages, et al).
I don’t deny the fact that these problems exist, but India is improving, after ages of suppression…So, lets give it some more time and see! As someone said, in an other comment, every country/culture has problems…just that the problem set differs from one country to the other. If America/Europe/India ain’t that good for you, just pack and move to some other place (where you are least concerned, with the problem set, related to that place)….or cope up, avoid confrontation and live with it.
Oh Boy! Yet another product of the Macaulite educational system!
LOL
My dear Mr./Miss BlueEyedIndian, a very interesting series of experiences in your Life!
I find your views on the Middle Class very true and also that India is just ‘rising up’ though Mr. Obama would rather us believe to have already ‘risen.’
But I couldn’t understand some of your statements and hope that you would elaborate them a bit more:-
“Lets also face it – most Indians aren’t good looking people – there are a billion Indians and I would say 10% are stunning however 90% are very average to bad looking”
On what standards? Besides poverty and malnourishment, are Indians genetically ‘bad looking?’
I rather think that in any human population, of adequate and comparable nourishment and income, 10% might be stunning, a large chunk average looking and around 10% ‘bad-looking’ though by a good diet and keeping a well-toned body would overcome ‘bad’ looks.
“I find a lot of middle class Indians to be rude, abusive and nasty to me for no reason – just the way I look and behave.. but a lot of them are also nice to me and admire me and wish to be like me.”
There has to be a reason.
I agree, that your skin colour and blue eyes is rather unexpected in an Indian, but besides school, where kids who are in any way, by size, weight, glasses, or in your case, looks, different from the average, are always a target for ‘ridicule’ by the other kids, I don’t think would play the dominant role in how you are treated, in the end.
You being from, your own description, most probably ‘upper caste’ and wealthy family plus your ‘fair’ looks would have been considered as rather ‘attractive’ features in traditional Indian society.
Yes, jealousy is a factor.
Being jealous of not only another person’s ‘looks’ but also their family ‘background’ exists.
‘Plain’-looking people might get jealous of ‘very good’ looking people and poor get jealous of the wealthy while the rich get jealous of those having a simple Life.
But genuine hatred based on looks alone?
(I am not talking of racial hatred, which is just ‘learnt’ by a new generation following the older generation and is based on the belief of the ‘superiority’ of one’s own race.)
I find it hard to believe.
People whom you interact daily judge you, ultimately, by how you behave and your actions and how you treat others.
The Indian Middle Class, for all their competitiveness, is not completely unreasonable and many times objective….
And which characteristics and qualities of yours are admired and followed?
Your politeness, diplomacy, intelligence or a broader-outlook of the world etc.?
That’s commendable, then.
” In western countries every oriental girl dreams of marrying a white guy becausethey hate themselves and want mixed race children.”
I think this statement needs to be verified from others.
Haven’t been out of the country but I do think any people, no matter how bad politically or financially they are, would hate their own race/culture so passionately.
But maybe I might be wrong….
As to how Indians call themselves as ‘brown,’ its rather curious. When we see the matrimony sites/hear an average Indian talking, we see that most Indians call each other ‘fair’, ‘wheatish’ or ‘dusky.’
Its when we are in front of a non-Indian or talking in a well-mannered company that we refer to ourselves as ‘brown.’
As to the Indian Inferiority complex….
India is, as BlueEyedIndian mentioned, a mix of races.
But, one does find that there are some regions almost specific to that race.
However, Indians have travelled all over the land and generally know from which region which people reside and what culture/tradition they follow.
” due to India’s history as well as racialmixes – north, south, east, west divide, all the languages and different culturesthat exist in India is what has given a large number of Indians this sort of an Inferiority complex.”
I wouldn’t simply say an inferiority complex.
What it has made is that people have become rather defensive towards their own culture when they migrate to a different region.
A kind of superiority of their looks and culture even exists in the region where they dominate.
But still, Indians of all’ kinds’ are nowadays present almost anywhere in India in more or less ‘quantities.’
However, Indian interaction with the Europeans is long, and has been mostly brought to the fore by Alexander the Great’s invasion into India.
Subsequently, India has been subjugated by foreign powers who were fair-skinned mostly and the interactions were not all polite, kind and the treatment of the natives was not always at an eye-level .
Besides, after Independance, it was the Western countries that developed while the African and Sub-continental countries remained developing.
So, white skin is associated with power, higher education, intelligence, politeness and money.
And in the Indian mind, accustomed to the caste hierarchy, any people who are so favoured, ‘traditionally’ by wealth and power are indeed at the top of the societal heirarchy.
Then, there’s a curious fact that while the Western people enjoy ‘wealth’ and ‘power’, their culture is a lot less ‘conservative’ as compared to the Indian Culture.
And the exaggeration by the Indian media and entertainment industry is not helping.
If anything that an Indian considers the best about India, its Her, their Culture and we do view ourselves and others by such parameters.
So, while interacting with a ‘white’ person, an Indian ‘brown’ knows he is talking to someone with supposedly ‘greater’ wealth and ‘status’ but somehow, contradictorily, with ‘looser’ morals….
So, he is himself confused as how to react….
But, money and power, in this age, being second to none….
The opposite becomes true when a spouse is a ‘white’ person…
When I was a kid, I saw the foreigners with a lot of curiosity.
I was intimidated by their worldly knowledge and experience, but to my then growing mind, also found funny their ‘lack’ of common sense on visiting India in strange clothes and confused and shocked expressions, besides a bit ‘strange’ looking…. (Come on, I was a kid!)
I then grew up, learnt more about the world and while I admire their interest in exploring far-away lands (as compared to their home-land), I find their interactions with India and their confusion and subsequent rationalisation quite endearing.
But I feel similar and more kin-ship with my fellow Indians who travel/stay out of India, too.
But I don’t see any as ‘superior’ or ‘inferior’ to me or myself inferior or superior, though.
P. S.:- What in the wildest dream did you imagine, Sharell, that your blog might become ‘quiet?’
SORRY, Sharell, couldn’t help commenting!
Hi Sharrell, I didnt even bother reading the entire article, but I already agree with you. I feel it all the time.
An easy way out of such confusions would be to stop thinking there is an “Indian mind” or “Western mind” at all. Humans are essentially individuals; while we pick a lot of cultural traits as we grow up, we are still essentially individuals. Hence, individual characteristics and quirkiness will confuse you if you expect people to behave a certain way based on their ethnicities.
I am a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant born and raised in Sonoma, California. My husband is a Kashmiri Muslim of ‘high caste’ born and raised in Srinagar, Kashmir. I supposed when we were married that we were both from ‘upper middle class’ backgrounds. Kashmiris think that they are ‘white’. Much to my surprise and apparently just like the rest of India ‘high caste’ and ‘middle class’ mean ABSOLUTELY ATROCIOUS MANNERS. Being polite by Western standards is considered being weak. Being honest and ethical is considered stupidity. Anyone that CAN be taken advantage of SHOULD be taken advantage of. Gossip and rock throwing are the national sports of Kashmir. Yet I am seen to have lower moral standards? I have never met any people so openly and unashamedly RUDE, SHALLOW, VAIN, GREEDY, and STUPID. It always amazes me when I visit poor people all over India that for all the indignities and deprivations they suffer are so POLITE and WELL BEHAVED! What is it with ‘middle class’ Indians that they behave so HORRIBLY? No wonder they hate themselves! If behavior determines superiority then YES, I AM SUPERIOR! There, that’s my rant for today. I could regale you with examples of the atrocities aforementioned but I need to go to bed now. Sigh, I think you know what I’m talking about, Sharell.
I thought Muslims didn’t have caste.. so how can he be of a “Higher” Caste?
“Being polite by Western standards is considered being weak. Being honest and ethical is considered stupidity.”
Either you “Kashmiri” guy is clueless or you are. Not exactly sure which one.
Manny, Indian Muslims, Sikhs and even Christians have ‘castes’ meaning those Hindus converted to that religion.
Mostly, Muslim lower castes consist of the converted Hindus.
I have even seen matrimonial advertisements for ‘Brahmin’ Christian’ boy.
I thought it was an isolated case or a printing mistake till I saw another one later.
The Indian Middle class has become very competetive, Mrs. Tamasha!, I agree. And they are not at fault for the competition, since the population is large and the resources few.
The need for a ‘status’ is the old mindset of societal hierarchy adjusting to modern educational, social and financial flexibility.
The reasons as to why such a large chunk of a nation’s population, and by default of being the second-most populous nation, one of the largest chunk of the World’s population, behaves in such a manner is an interesting and intriguing, though frustrating social question.
To convince onself that they are inherently “stupid” would be an insult to their intelligence.
I know that you were venting frustration, but I found the following statements quite hilarious and so can’t help but comment, despite my studies calling for me:-
“Gossip and rock throwing are the national sports of Kashmir”
Seriously, Lady?
That coming from someone married to a Kashmiri and, judging by the comment, living/lived in Srinagar!
There are political reasons why rocks are pelted in Kashmir, Lady….
” Being polite by Western standardsis considered being weak.”
That might be due to cultural differences.
If you are expecting ‘excuse me’ in an Indian language, please tell me the exact translation….
The point being, yes, Indian etiquette many times does not match up to Western etiquette because it is not Western etiquette but Indian etiquette, which is quite different from Western etiquette and if both had been the same, it won’t be called Indian etiquette.
” Being honest and ethical is considered stupidity. Anyone that CAN be taken advantage of SHOULD be taken advantage of.”
That might be due to the fierce competition….
But I hardly think its a general nature of the Middle Class to take advantage of everything and anyone in an ‘unethical’ way.
There are nuts everywhere, I will not deny that….
“I have never met any people so openly and unashamedly RUDE, SHALLOW, VAIN, GREEDY, and STUPID.”
Your husband is one of the ‘high/middle’ classes you are complaining about, no?
Thanks for the compliments, by the way, I am Indian Middle Class.
I am very rude, extremely shallow, horrifyingly vain, unquenchably greedy and alarmingly stupid!
“…. that for all the indignities and deprivations they suffer are so POLITE and WELL BEHAVED! What is it with ‘middle class’ Indians that they behave so HORRIBLY?”
One of the main differentiating factors between the ‘haves’ (here, the Indian Middle and Higher Income class – those with the Saffron and White Ration Cards) and the ‘have-nots’ (the poor – the ones who may not even know what is a Ration Card), besides money, is NUTRITION.
So, the more malnourished an Indian is, the more polite he is.
The more you feed him and allow his brain and body to grow and develop, the more he become “openly and unashamedly RUDE, SHALLOW, VAIN, GREEDY, and STUPID.”
To halt this growing acts of “HORRIBLE” behaviour, the Indian Government is forming a new ministry, ‘The Ministry for Food Shortage and Poverty Encouragement’ where the ‘Food’ collecting and supplying part will be headed by the Honourable Suresh Kalmadi, the ‘Poverty Encouragement – Infrastructure’ by the Honourable Ashok Chavan and the ‘Public Reach and Communication’ part by the Honourable A. Raja.
“No wonder they hate themselves!”
We do….
Its what makes us tick….
But we definitely Love you….
You have understood why we think and behave in ‘this’ manner quite well!
Manny are you Indian? You didn’t know Kashmiri/Indian Muslims suffer the social evil of ‘caste’? It always amazes me how little people know about their own country.
Yes, I know ‘why’ they throw rocks in Kashmir. Is it with good reason? No, I do not think rock throwing solves problems. Silly me.
Well, you know what they say in Kashmir: “feed an Indian, breed an Indian”.
I LOVE NEPAL!
“Yes, I know ‘why’ they throw rocks in Kashmir. Is it with good reason? No, I do not think rock throwing solves problems”
You are right, dear Mrs. TAMASHA!, to wonder about the effectiveness of stone-pelting as a way of solving problems in the Kashmir Valley.
I believe political analysts, Nation Leaders, Army Generals and a few gun-tottering terrorists are scratching their heads right this minute wondering about this problem.
Yet, this blog is not the place for it, unless Sharell gets so desperate as to add this topic in the ‘Debator’s Den!’
(Do you think mutual stone-pelting is the answer to the Kashmir issue?)
” It always amazes me how little people know about theirown country.”
Indeed, I am most ashamed to say that in my twenty years of existence, I have scratched the mosquito bites on my skin deeper than this country’s mysteries….
“Well, you know what they say in Kashmir: “feed an Indian, breed an Indian”.”
I didn’t know that.
But it made me blush!
But then, the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach….
So, I guess its possible.
The problem is we do suffer a little bit from overpopulation….
“I LOVE NEPAL!”
I am happy for you!
By the way, how’s the weather in the Himalayas?
I was planning to make a trip somewhere around Sikkim, Darjeeling in January, but Sharell advised me, that unless I fancy experiencing how the vegetables in my refrigerator feel like, it would be most appropriate to divert my energies to a cooler Rajasthan.
Hmmmm….
Seriously, I know that Nepal has a large Hindu population.
How’s the casteism there?
As bad as India?
Sikkim ranges from the subtropical to the high alpine. So does Nepal. I live in a subtropical valley in Nepal so it’s pleasant, dry, and temperate. Usually 4,000 feet and below is temperate, above that (Srinagar is about 5,000 ft) expect snow. I would think most Indians would find snow quite a novelty.
Yes, Nepal was formerly the last of the Hindu kingdoms of the Himalayas. Now it’s some sort of communist contrivance. Casteism in Nepal isn’t as ridiculous as India. Although it was sort of a big deal when a few Dalits were elected to offices here. Nepali’s do not seem to be as concerned with determining how much money you make, what hotel you are staying at, how much your jewelry costs, how old you are, etc LIKE MIDDLE CLASS INDIANS ARE. (I HAD TO SAY IT) Nepali’s are actually reserved and polite even by western standards. I think this is due to the strong Buddhist influence.
‘Hinduism’ in Nepal is such a blend of Buddhism, animism, and Hinduism that caste gets a bit blurry. Did you know there are over 50 different languages in Nepal? Every little valley and village has their own festivals that can differ in observance from their neighbors. . Ethnicity (what tribe you belong to) seems to matter more than caste. I think this is due to the strong Buddhist influence in Nepal also.
Actually my father-in-law is a very well known politician in Kashmir. He’s great! The rest of my inlaws in Kashmir…….well my father-in-law and I agree that they are not very nice people. As for stone throwing mutually or otherwise, COME ON! I’ve even had rocks thrown at ME in Kashmir. The rock throwing has gone beyond a political statement and is just plain hooliganism now. I asked some Kashmiris what they thought would happen if they threw a rock at a policeman in the US? They were shocked when I told them they’d most likely be shot!
Fancy that.
Jayesh, if you must give medical advice online please do it responsibly. I AM a doctor and I DO NOT play one on television. Norflox TZ is pretty serious stuff. At least be sure to tell people to avoid alcohol while on the stuff, no dairy, no sunbathing, (whiteys fry on quinolones), tendonitis & tendon ruptures are possible, not to mention psychiatric side effects? Does no one in India do a stool sample to narrow down the list of potential pathogens? They do stool samples in Nepal. Is this the kind of medicine they teach in India?
YaaaaaaaaaaaY!
Another Practicing Doctor on Sharell’s blog!
Seriously, Lady, when I saw the length of the comment, my first thought was, “Either she is one or she should be a Doctor!”
Now, I will anwer the medical question right now:-
“Does no one in India do a stool sample to narrow down the list of potential pathogens? They do stool samples in Nepal. Is this the kind of medicine they teach in India?”
A little bit more harsh, Lady and you would sound like my elder sister, whom I am mortally afraid of!
Yes, there are efficient Pathology Labs in India.
They teach adequate medicine in India for Indians to work in the U. K. and other countries.
As to your Norflox-TZ question.
THANKS for the rapp on the knuckles, Ma’am.
Actually, when I ‘prescribed’ Mr. Flydye45, it was for vey severe diarrhoea and in case of emergencies, i. e. no doctors around.
Obiviously, if a doctor’s around, one HAS to go to the doctor immediately.
In India, severe diarrhoea is considered akin to bacterial diarrhoea, unless its cholera (caused by a bacteria, I know but this bug very, very bad), for which the patient’s health deteriorates so quickly that one has to be hospitalised and Intravenous fluids started.
I will be more responsible, next time.
Anyway, I hope you will be there to rectify my mistakes….
Okay I seem I need to add a few things:-
I wrote in a simple basic so way that every one reading can understand….
Severe diarrhoea in adults, in India is considered mostly of bacterial/amoebic aetiology and Norflox-TZ is the commonest drug combination I have seen prescribed in my teaching hospital.
And when I said ‘Another Practicing Doctor’ I meant there are others here like Surya, who is a Psychiatrist in the U. S. A., I think.
I am an Undergraduate, studying, in fact, right now….
(And sleep-deprived…. yawn!)
And going to a doctor is the most basic thing one has to do when a doctor is present nearby and you suspect you don’t feel sunny….
Not going is mad!
Can’t even imagine it!
Hmmmm…. double comments….
Sharell, the first, please delete!
THANKS for the info.!
“I would think most Indians would find snow quite a novelty.”
Of course!
Every winter I dream of snowfall in Mumbai.
But, someone told me to go to Manali in early summer, where there’s snow but its not that cold.
” Casteism in Nepal isn’t as ridiculous as India”
I am glad….
Actually, Wikipedia had me worried, but I wanted to know from an actual source.
“Nepali’s do not seem to be as concerned with determining how much money you make, what hotel you are staying at, how much your jewelry costs, how old you are, etc LIKE MIDDLE CLASS INDIANS ARE. (I HAD TO SAY IT”
Like I said, Ma’am, its the old social hierarchy adjusting to the new flexible social status.
And these questions are, I believe, typical ‘Aunty’ questions.
‘Aunties’ of India are a nightmare for those who are naturally shy and quiet.
They are in an entire class of their own!
Sharell’s scared of them!
Don’t worry, the present generation is outgrowing that behaviour, slowly but steadily.
I get looks if I ask such questions to my friends!
So, they are used to tease each other!
Intersting, I thought the ‘jewellery’ question was common for all women!
” Did you know there are over 50 different languages in Nepal? Every little valley and village has their own festivals that can differ in observance from their neighbors.”
50 languages? WOW!
Does everyone has a script or most are dialects?
That’s very beautiful!
Its so diverse in so small an area, comparatively.
That’s the beauty of the Sub-continent.
Unity in Diversity.
But I see, Nepal has it all, in a very small area!
“Actually my father-in-law is a very well known politician in Kashmir. He’s great!”
Indian side of the Kashmir?
Hmmmm….
” The rest of my inlaws in Kashmir…….well my father-in-law and I agreethat they are not very nice people.”
That’s too bad to hear!
A Loving Joint and Extended Indian Family is something that is an Indian speciality.
Though, nowadays, the nuclear family is fast becoming a norm.
” COME ON! I’ve even had rocks thrown at ME in Kashmir. The rock throwing has gone beyond a political statement and is just plain hooliganism now.”
That’s bad!
I hope you weren’t hurt!
The ‘mutual’ part was supposed to be humorous.
I know I have a rather ‘weird’ sense of humour and behaviour almost bordering on mania….
Too hyperactive!
I guess, when one kind of agitation recieves social ‘sanction’ of a sort, it does tend to be exploited….
Stone pelting, though, is a universal problem, when it comes to demonstrations and rallies, when they turn violent.
In India etc., due to the police apathy, political support (and sanction and leverage) its become an efficient way to make sure your cause gets the required publicity.
As for Kashmir, there were reports, I don’t know how reliable, of how the rioters were actually paid to turn violent and pelt stones, by some of the political parties.
About that ‘shot’ thing….
Many in India would be surprised by that, as police are ordered, unless you are facing them with a gun/explosive, to first give warning, then Lathi charge, then shoot in the legs and as a Last Resort to shoot above the waist.
Indian police are legally not supposed/not well supplied to take a revolver out and say, “Freeze!”
Hence, Shaheed Tukaram Ombale faced the terrorist Ajmal Amir Kasab with a Lathi, on 26/11.
Still, I LOVE MY INDIA.
Don’t get all too excited just yet Jayesh, I am a RETIRED PHYSICIAN, much to old and grumpy at the ripe old age of 45 to put up with ‘aunty’ questions. Especially when the ‘aunty’ questions come from my bratty Kashmiri nieces.
I am surprised that Indian police are given any sort of orders at all. Just about every time I stepped out of the family compound in Kashmir the police had a gun pointed at me. I guess the lack of equipment explains the Indian police and the CRPF’s complete lack of knowledge about gun safety.
Nepal has at least 50 different written languages and probably about 150 dialects. I have to admire Nepali’s retaining their traditions despite the current communist regime’s attempts to ban them. I read an article in the Kathmandu Post not long ago stating that Nepali’s do not suffer from the ‘Indian inferiority complex’ as they have never suffered ‘colonialism’. Maybe Nepali’s have never had to compete for ‘limited resources’ as you say Indians do?
Good luck in your studies, Jayesh. I always carry a round of Norflox TZ when traveling the Asian subcontinent. Like they say in Spain, ‘whatever doesn’t kill you makes you fat’.
I must add that my husband and I have been to Nepal (Kathmandu) twice, and people’s attitudes are so different there compared to India. We both love Nepal.
I guess Jayesh will see this. No ‘reply’ button was at the end of his post. Wow is it amazing how different Nepal is from India! Nope, if you are an Indian citizen or a citizen of any SAARC nation you do not need a visa to enter Nepal. In fact Indians only need a drivers license or some sort of ID that states they live in India to enter Nepal. I am not yet a citizen of India but I am a citizen of Kashmir. Bizarre huh?
That means I can own land in Kashmir and you can’t. So there! When I tell the average untravelled nincompoop middle class Indian I live in Nepal they wrinkle their rather large nose in disgust. For some reason they think I (and all Nepalis) live in a hovel eating watery dal bhat. I have a lovely house with a garden, a small swimming pool, two indoor English commodes(!), a view of the Annapurnas, a view of a beautiful lake, a restaurant style Italian made kitchen (that was a small miracle to get into Nepal), and a lovely staff of Nepali’s to keep things tidy. I LOVE to cook but I hate to clean! So I roll my eyes at being condescended to by such assinine individuals. PUHLEEEZE! I’m too old to put up with such pretentions.
Practicing medicine in the US with it’s maelstrom of insurance companies, endless paperwork, and sue happy spoiled Americans get tiresome. Life in the US gets tiresome. If we lived in the US my husband and I would not see each other as much. We’d be doing some awful commute instead of walking home for lunch as we do here. (You really have to drive everywhere in California) .Anyway my plan was always to retire at 40 and open an art gallery, and I made it!
Business takes me to Delhi alot so that is the Indian city I know best outside of Srinagar. Mumbai has to be the ‘rude middle class Indian’ capital of India so I avoid it. Kolkata is interesting and not as nasty as the reputation it has. I really think I’d die in 6 months if I lived in a big city. The air quality (pollution) really does a number on my respiratory system. I’ve been to Bihar, the deepest darkest pit of India. For our honeymoon we went to Agra to see the Taj Mahal. Jaipur, Jodhpur, Kerala (to see Amma), Chennai, Bhopal, Hyderabad, and numerous little villages in between. I drove from Delhi to Agra. What a mistake that was. We took the train back to Delhi. I like the trains in India, they certainly aren’t any worse than America’s Amtrak. I really want to go to Goa for our wedding anniversary in January.
Despite all my kvetching and moaning about the behavior of ‘middle class Indians’ I really do like India. I can’t see myself ever going back to the US. Having already seen north and south America and Europe I look forward to seeing all of Asia. Or should I say Australasia?
Anyhow I fixed my bratty Kashmiri niece mini-aunties. They really want me to take them to DisneyWorld (they thought there was only DisneyLand before I came along). HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I DON’T THINK SO!!!!
I think you are the rudest arshole I have seen here. I don’t believe there are ruder middle class desies.
That was meant for the rude person who go by the moniker TAMASHA!
Awwwwwwwwww Manny tell us what you really think! So whatever an upper caste Indian says is always right? Come on ……. elaborate on this “American Christian Caste” duck walking theory you exponate. Do Presbyterians not marry Lutherans? THRILL ME WITH YOUR ACUMEN!
Thanks for the info!
I didn’t know the border was that porous!
“Anyway my plan was always to retire at 40 and open an art gallery, and I made it!”
I am happy you got your Wish fulfilled!
You are an artist?
A painter?
“I am not yet a citizen of India but I am a citizen of Kashmir. Bizarre huh? That means I can own land in Kashmir and you can’t.”
That is a legacy of Nehru that most Indians are extremely reluctant to forgive….
“For some reason they think I (and allNepalis) live in a hovel eating watery dal bhat”
Intersting, because any Indian I have seen, when he heards of the word ‘Nepali,’ the first words that spring into the minds are ‘Gurkha?’, ‘Khukhri?’ ‘Watchman?’ ‘Security Guard?’ ‘Soldier?’
Anyway, you have a very intriguing sense of houmour!
Its fun reading your comments/replies!
“theaverage untravelled nincompoop middle class Indian”
As opposed to?
‘The rare travelled smart rich American?’
Is an untravelled middle class Indian automatically a ‘nincompoop?’
“rather large nose”
As Sharell will tell you, I have a rather large nose.
Nice, straight and pointy!
“I have a lovely house with a garden, a small swimming pool, two indoor English commodes(!), a view of the Annapurnas, a view of a beautiful lake, a restaurant style Italian made kitchen (that was a small miracle to get into Nepal), and a lovely staff of Nepali’s to keep things tidy. I LOVE to cook but I hate to clean! So I roll my eyes at being condescended to by such assinine individuals. PUHLEEEZE! I’m too old to put up with such pretentions.”
This
And
This
“happy spoiled Americans”
I have heard of medical insurance in the U. S. of A.
There are Government/State-owned Hospitals, Primary Health Centres and Community Health Centres in India that charge very nominal rates with free O. P. D./Emergency services.
Are there such institutions in Nepal?
Have you ever seen how they function? What kind of infrastructure do they have?
In India, due to corruption, the infrastructure is poor but the quality of doctors, especially in Teaching Hospitals, excellent.
Hmmmm…. I thought you had stayed at many other places for longer time, got to interact with the locals more, especially in the Metropolitan Cities before making such opinions about the Indian Middle Class!
We are not all that bad!
I agree, once you get addicted to large open spaces, with nature, its difficult to go back to a City, its stiffling, noisy, crowded and very fast-paced….
I know about the pollution and lungs!
(Just Kidding!)
Whenever I used to spend my vacations at my village and come back to Mumbai after 2 months, I used to get repeated Respiratory Tract Infections.
The doctor told my parents to stop the shuffling, as I was allergic to Oxygen.
“Despite all my kvetching and moaning about the behavior of ‘middle class Indians’ I really do like India”
I am glad!
I thought there was some Love behind all that rage!
Goa is a good place for your anniversary, even your honeymoon!
And 45 is not ‘old!’
Nice work with the mini-Aunties!
I am happy you liked my term ‘mini-Aunties.’
I know that you are a real sweet hearted person with a sharp tongue, though!
Well, I must say ‘good-bye’ for now, till Dec 10.
Have got exams….
But it was educating and fun interacting with you during break-time.
Thanks for the wishes. (And the lesson.)
Will see you soon!
“I am a RETIRED PHYSICIAN”
I hope for personal reasons only.
I can’t imagine anyone retiring from becoming a doctor unless you detest it and got into it by parental pressure, like some of my friends have….
They are thinking of doing MBA and CA etc.
I can’t imagine what torture they are going through!
But I feel so ALIVE in my hospital, when I interact with patients, learn how to extract the relevant history, find out why and how they behave under difficult circumstances, derive information from examination and reach a diagnosis and plan a treatment.
Feel the highs of success and the joys of loss….
Its a ‘heady’ feeling….
So my shock to hear that you have retired….
I hope that this feeling doesn’t diminish with age….
“Especially when the ‘aunty’ questions come from my bratty Kashmiri nieces.”
Scary!
More scary than a 50 Aunty, when you know that at least they are of the old guard, but these new ones ready to be unleased….
But I guess, its how you are brought up that matters….
I can imagine you though, a 45 yr old actual Aunty dealing with mini-Auntys!
You must have a fiery reply ready for them when it would get too much for you!
“Just about every time I stepped out of the family compound in Kashmir the police had a gun pointed at me.”
Ah! Kashmir….
That’s actually another ball game altogether.
Its almost the reverse there.
There are too many and too trigger-tensed police/soldiers around due to the political circumstances….
And they would be well-trained for that, I expect….
Wish they were half as properly armed and more trained in other Indian cities, though.
The memory of Shaheed Tukaram Omble taking on a cornered, trigger-happy Kasab with only a Lathi, makes me shudder every time.
“I read an article in the Kathmandu Post not long ago stating that Nepali’s do not suffer from the ‘Indian inferiority complex’ as they have never suffered ‘colonialism’”
Foreign rule and especially British rule over India had a huge impact over the Indian psyche.
Nepal, I am glad was spared from the clutches of British Imperialism in the ruthless dominating way that most of the sub-continent was.
But, the Indian reaction to a Westerner is complex. There’s an element of Inferiority Complex but then also, there is an elemant of Superiority too plus an exciting and long-suppressed and not-oft used Self-Confidence, which as you have put quite succinctly, Nepalese have never lost due to they not bearing the brunt of colonialism.
Yet, this reaction cannot still be blamed on one single reason alone.
Indian social hierarchy was also effectively exploited by the foreign rulers….
It is now that this reaction is going rapid change due to increased Indian self-confidence.
As for the lack of resources, yes, the Indian, bursting-at-the-seams middle class have to be competitive and where there’s competition, there’s politics.
I can understand that how Indian politics work and the factors involved may make Indian middle class sound all the epithets that you described a couple of posts ago, though….
But I believe to actually expect that they truly are such, would be too great a generalisation of too large a section of the population….
And, like a characteristic Sub-continental nation, Indian customs and traditions and social ettiquettes and the way they are carried out are complex and especially HERE, well ‘scrutinised.’
But still, the Indian middle class functions quite well as a unit.
Hmmmm…. which other parts of India have you stayed at/visited?
I have heard that I don’t need a Visa for travelling to Nepal.
Is that true?
Which would be the best time of the year to visit?
“I have to admire Nepali’s retaining their traditions despite the current communist regime’s attempts to ban them”
I think Manny will be happy to hear that!
One’s customs and traditions are a part of one’s culture and, therefore, identity. You cannot ‘erase’ them just like that.
And unless they cause harm to others/environment, they should be modified/not carried out.
Foreign powers have tried for millenia to dominate Indians with their own culture, but what resulted was slow modification and acceptance of the ancient customs and traditions alongwith those of the dominating powers, yet retaining the spirit of their true spirit, that is followed till today.
That’s resilience, too, of a sort.
“Good luck in your studies, Jayesh. I always carry a round of Norflox TZ when traveling the Asian subcontinent.”
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I appreciate it.
Any tips for me from a doctor to a student?
(Besides the prescription lesson!)
“Like they say in Spain, ‘whatever doesn’t kill you makes you fat’.”
Interesting….
And too many sweets will kill you by making you fat!
How does the evil of Indian caste system compare to the American Christian caste system?
The whole world got to see the evil of the Christian caste system when we all saw how the christian untouchables were left to die during the Katrina disaster.
Even after 300 years of living together, black caste and white caste hardly marry.
I am not even going to mention all the other horrors done to caste people through the last 300 years.
And Indian upper caste people are not going to consider any Muslim as upper caste. And yes I am an Indian and from what I have read what you have posted, you can safely assume I know more about India then you.
Please explain the ‘American Christian Caste’ system. Never heard of it. Being an American I’d like to know where I fit in.
Manny, what do Indian upper caste people consider Muslims to be?
Muslims and christians are simply outcastes.
IF any Muslim or a Christian enters an anachronistic conservative Bramin home, both would be treated with the same respect an untouchable Hindu would be treated. They would possibly clean their house and say Pranam after the said visit.
Never heard of the American Christian Caste system? Don’t go by the labels. go by the actions.
If it looks like a duck, Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its an effing Duck!
The whole idea of India’s inferiority complex comes from the Macaulite education system for over 300 years, the Christian Maccaulite has fed the Indians with the inferiority of the Hindu culture. The desies who have bought into this propaganda suffer from this inferiority complex. Many of them are Bengalis and Mallus (Kerala) and many other lefty desies sprinkled all over. These Lefties who have been swallowing whatever the white Christian historians (Max Muller, McCaully et al) have been spewing have developed this deep self loathing and self flagellating culture. You can find these types on Sepia Mutiny dot com for e.g..
Some of us, have a good understanding of who we are and have been brought up by classy parents we do not see ourselves as inferior to anyone. Many of us are not swayed by any racism in the west. We grow up as healthy human beings. We are impressed only with classy westerners who are not the majority. I loath and look down up on the religious supremacists and racial supremacists and ignorant whites of the US. Mind you, this is no chest thumping jingoism on my part. I consider the American culture of individual liberty (philosophies of John Locke, Thomas Paine, Jefferson) in par with Indian Dharmic culture.
So yes, there ar desis with inferiority complex who are easily impressed with white skin and then there are plenty of us need a tad more to be impressed.
Given a choice, I have no desire to go live in Nepal. No offense to the Nepalis.
Tamasha,
I apologize for calling you a rude arsehole. I should have stayed with just “Rude”. Tha Ahole thingi was uncalled for. Mea Culpa and sorry about that!
But as for the rest of the posts. I stand behind em.
@ Tamasha” I don’t believe in India’s history one ethnic group never tried to wipe out another ethnic group.”
Please believe it, doc.
It is true…inspite of being incredibly diverse there never was any ethnic or caste cleansing genocide that ever took place among hindus. Eg., Buddha had relocated to central India from Nepal (i also love Nepal minus maoists !!!) and lived and died there (in his 80s) preaching his doctrines without ever being persecuted by hindus.In fact hindus fed, protected and admired him. If you have heard/read anything different, then yes we can debate further. Surya, Chicago.
@Surya
FYI,
1) Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) was a Hindu Prince.
2) Buddhism is not a religion. It is a philosophy! (In my opinion, Hinduism is also a philosophy, rather than a religion).
2) The concept of India/Nepal is relatively new and Hindu Kingdoms extended ’til Afghanistan (Search for ‘Hindu Kush’) in the North and Indonesia (in the East) – as per archeological & documented proof. So, by saying that he (Buddha) relocated to India or “Hindus fed, protected and admired him” is naive, in my opinion. In my opinion, Buddhism is just a refined form of Hinduism.
Surya, I believe lynchings and killings are not unique to Christianity or western culture. news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste-related_violence_in_India
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/Caste-violence/articleshow/131122.cms
I could go on posting links but I think you get the idea. While the Hindu caste cleansing or ethnic genocide may not be as organized as Nazi Germany or the Spanish Inquisition it has and is continuing to take place. The violence toward the American Indians was rather erratic also.
Siddhartha Gautama was a Hindu prince, not surprisingly treated well by the Hindu population.
There is a beggar that comes regularly to my door. His Hindu family poured kerosene on him and set him afire because he converted to Islam. He is horribly disfigured, blinded, and unable to use his hands due to his burns.
Do I think the Christian west is any better than Hinduism? No. Human behavior is often horrible defying all boundaries of caste, race, creed, or anything else.
I’d be interested in hearing your opinion Doc. Bibi, Shangri-La.
@Tamasha
I think, your opinions are a bit crooked/biased. While I agree that India ain’t a perfect place and there are occasional ethnic clashes and differences, it’s not as worse as you put it. There’s a huge difference between ‘Caste Related Violence’ and ‘Caste Related Cleansing/Genocide’. So, use your words wisely. I also agree about your stats on Holocaust, but I wonder why you didn’t mention the Holocaust of Indians (not American Indians), that happened during Arab and British invasion/colonial times. Is it because you are married to a Muslim and confused? Did you ever question to yourself, how such a totally Hindu region in Asia, is now also home to a large number of Muslims (India has the second highest Muslim population, after Indonesia)? …and do you wonder why Shangri-La doesn’t have any Hindu’s anymore?
Regarding the ‘Beggar’, there might be a couple of cases like that, as there are Hindu right-wingers, too. Apart from that, Kashmir is a very sensitive region and many Kashmir Pandits have relocated Southwards or to different parts of the world. This might explain some extreme cases of intolerance, like this example. Be it whatever, I’m all for religious tolerance. Can you explain, what would happen if a Muslim converts to Hinduism?
Prashanth-
Did I say I was mentioning every known holocaust known on Earth? No.
Am I confused because I am married to a Muslim? Is that what happens to people who marry Muslims? Somebody better inform Kareena Kapoor quick before she marries Saif Ali Khan that her mental status is endangered. Please explain to me what happens if a Muslim converts to Hinduism, I’m confused remember?
Yes, caste violence is ‘as worse as I put it’. My travels in India have mostly been in promotion of a child immunization and ‘well baby’ program for the poor and underserved. From what I’ve seen of ethnic/religious/caste violence in India it is holocaust/genocide/murder/extermination. If the Dalits were to have written history things might be remembered differently.
Living in Srinagar for 6 months with a father-in-law who is a well known politician I am quite aware of Kashmir’s sensitive situation. I think my previous posts have made it clear I’m not a big fan of current Kashmiri Muslim culture. I do not think most Kashmiri’s realize how they are spiting themselves by perpetuating this situation. My father-in-law agrees with me…privately. BRING BACK KASHMIRIYAT!
Yes, I am wondering why Shangri-La doesn’t have Hindu’s anymore. Most Nepali’s I meet claim to be Hindu. In fact they often claim to be more Hindu than Indians because they celebrate weddings, festivals, and holidays ‘properly’. The communists have tried to ban their religious festivals but the Nepali’s aren’t having any of it. Do you know something they don’t know?
Why would I wonder how a primarily Hindu region has a large number of Muslims? Because Muslim families have lots of babies? India has lots of Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists in addition to Hindus. They just don’t get always get along. Like human beings everywhere. Even Norway.
Unfortunately.
Show me some photographs like this of Dalits.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm
All those Dalits of India are well and alive. There are 200 million or so walking around. Don’t see dem American Indians anymore in the US though.
Show me pictures like this before you go around accusing Hindus of committing Holocaust/Genocide
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=holocaust+pictures&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1080&bih=555
@Tamasha
“Did I say I was mentioning every known holocaust known on Earth? No.”
You mentioned all the significant holocaust’ that happened, in our history. So, I asked that question.
“Am I confused because I am married to a Muslim? Is that what happens to people who marry Muslims? Somebody better inform Kareena Kapoor quick before she marries Saif Ali Khan that her mental status is endangered.”
The reason why I said that you are confused is because you are in a inter-cultural relationship…and someone who’s in this kind of relationship, is stuck between to cultures/religions, etc stuff..and in some cases, also affected by the ‘Stockholm Syndrome’. So, it’s nothing specific to you marrying a Muslim. It applies, even if you was married to a Hindu.
“Yes, caste violence is ‘as worse as I put it’.”
In my own Big Bang Theory of ‘Caste System’, my guess is that the caste system was created, ages back, to clearly separate tasks, create groups of people with different skills and assign it to respective groups (Note: Slightly off-topic, but using software terminology, I wanna say that the Indians knew Object Oriented Programming, long back.
), which probably changed, as time passed by and then, we were colonised for around 1000 years…and the influence of many other religions, cultures, etc might also have affected the system. I believe the worse chapter of ‘Caste System In India’ is over and is gradually improving. There are still some remote villages, tribal areas, which practice it, but the technology and media are helping in eradicating the evils of this system. Remember that these things cant be changed overnight!
“Yes, I am wondering why Shangri-La doesn’t have Hindu’s anymore”
That was my question. If you don’t know the answer, do some research or ask your folks.
“Why would I wonder how a primarily Hindu region has a large number of Muslims? Because Muslim families have lots of babies?”
I know that they have more babies. But my question was “How did Islam/Muslims get to India?” …It was just a logical question and something related to history…and not intended to provoke any reaction.
When I was in school, I attended with a number of Europeans. Norwegians mostly. And unasked for, they would roundly criticize America, discussing their lack of freedom to play loud music in apartment complexes at any time of day or night, and the various racial issues which plagued our nation.
I resented that a bit. These were unsolicited comments and they were reasonably constant.
From that example, and what I’ve read on these comments and forums, I believe it safest to keep my opinions to myself, asked or unasked.
Manny…just…wow.
@ Tamasha “I am a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant born and raised in Sonoma, California. My husband is a Kashmiri Muslim”
did you not have to convert to your husbands faith before your wedding? And whats your current faith may i ask?
Just curious, if kashmiri muslims are somewhat different. caste debate needs a dedicated topic, to discuss the origins, the distorsions, influence of foreign invasions, contemporary reparative measures adopted by the republic so on and so forth. I shall contribute i promise.
@Surya
According to the Koran a Muslim man may marry a Jewish or Christian woman but not an idolater such as a Hindu or Buddhist. Muslim women are bade only to marry Muslim men. I did not have to convert to Islam to marry my husband but we did have to get married in Kashmir and receive his father’s permission. What a pain in the behind that was. I guess there are no ‘civil ceremonies’ as in the US in India. There is a passage in the New Testament that states the husband is the spiritual leader of the family. My religious training is Dutch Mennonite as my mother was Dutch Mennonite. Anyhow Mennonites believe this passage to mean the wife must always convert to the husband’s religion. So I converted to Islam. An interesting aside, in Mennonite school we were required to read the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran. Apparently up until 1901 Dutch Mennonites were required to read the Torah in Hebrew, the Bible in Greek, and the Koran in Arabic.
Are Kashmiri Muslims different? I don’t know what to compare them to. The Muslims I knew prior to marrying my husband are mostly Persian, fellow university students. Kashmiri Muslims are nothing like my Persian friends.
I would say Kashmiri Muslims are different.
Tamasha, according to Rig Veda, ” Truth is one , wise call it by different names”. (read, god is one paths are many).
tamasha you wrote, “So I converted to Islam”
did you convert before signing the marriage contract or well after the wedding? How long after wedding you remained a dutch mannonite, doc? Were you a ‘devout mannonite’ until you left CA? Dont get me wrong, Christopher Hitchens is one of my favorites. So is advaita doctrine.
” I guess there are no ‘civil ceremonies’ as in the US in India”
Aha moment now. Clearly for someone who traveled to Delhi ‘a few times’, your depth of perception of India raises a huge red fag.There is a blogger here from Russia, who stated India had ‘attacked’ Goa. Another amazing foreigner, this fella is. He CONVENIENTLY forgot to google ‘Goa Inquisition’.
Talking of persians, i know them very well, ’cause i worked for a few years in Iran. Kick the mullahs out, bam, they will turn more liberal than delhites, overnight.Their ‘homemade’ wine and vodka isnt that bad. Drugs is another thriving cultural extravaganza to mention here.
@Surya–
I converted to Islam before signing the Nikaat. About an hour before as I recall. No, I have never considered myself a ‘devout Mennonite’. I do admire the Mennonite creed of pacifism. I do not think spiritual paths vary much. My father’s family are staunch atheists. My husband and I consulted several ‘family law’ specialists and two magistrates in Delhi. We were told there is a ‘Hindu marriage act’, a ‘Sikh marriage act’, a ‘Christian marriage act’ and some other marriage ‘acts’ requiring various religious persuasions I do not remember. This was 5 years ago. However, the maha magistrate in Delhi of marriages for all of India said because my husband is Kashmiri and according to Kashmir’s constitution we must be married in Jammu or Kashmir with his father’s permission. It sounds ridiculous but after 2 weeks of legal research we gave up and went to the stunning locale of Jammu to do the deed.
I lived in Delhi for 6 months during my pregnancy. I go to Delhi every 6 months on business. We have a flat in the Paharganj. I really don’t like big cities. Delhi is tolerable other than the abysmal air quality. I believe I mentioned most of my travels in India have been in the promotion and administration of a children’s immunization and ‘well baby’ program for the poor and underserved. My ‘depth of perception’ is pretty deep. The India I perceive is rural, impoverished and often treated indifferently at best by it’s burgeoning middle class.
@Prashanth-
I thought I made it clear that most Shangri-La residents consider themselves to be Hindu’s. I was wondering why YOU think there are no Hindu’s in Shangri-La?
Just an aside. Hitler was a great admirer of the Hindu caste system. Why do you think he chose the Swastika as his party’s emblem?
@Tamasha
“I thought I made it clear that most Shangri-La residents consider themselves to be Hindu’s. ”
I guess you are referring to the Shangri-La in Kashmir. I was referring to the one in Pakistan (which is actually a fictional place, taken from a book or some theory). Also, there are hotels and some other places, called by ‘Shangri La’.
“Just an aside. Hitler was a great admirer of the Hindu caste system. Why do you think he chose the Swastika as his party’s emblem?”
I know about that. From some point in history to 1900′s, India was a hot destination, for people from all over the world. Just because someone used Swastika, as a symbol and used the ‘Caste System’, to systemically execute ethnic cleansing, doesn’t mean that ‘Hinduism’ is bad. It’s like using Google or any other technology to do bad things and claiming the inventor/founder of that technology, an evil thing.
It’s not just Hitler. There are also some well known people, who compared the Caste System to Nazi Ideologies and are impressed with Hinduism. If they look at things, from that perspective and do evil/bad things, it is their fault. Of course, the present caste system is evil and India is trying to get rid of that, gradually.
I want to post some links, providing more info, about those people. But I don’t wanna search for that stuff, at work..and also coz I’m posting this comment, from a place, which is very close to where Hitler held huge rallies and where the world war 2 trials were held. So, its very sensitive, controversial and provoking information, to search for, from where I’m.
@Prashanth-
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Shangri-La (disambiguation).
Shangri-La is a fictional place described in the 1933 novel Lost Horizon by British author James Hilton. In the book, “Shangri-La” is a mystical, harmonious valley, gently guided from a lamasery, enclosed in the western end of the Kunlun Mountains. Shangri-La has become synonymous with any earthly paradise but particularly a mythical Himalayan utopia — a permanently happy land, isolated from the outside world.
I live in Nepal. Kashmir may claim to be ‘heaven on Earth’ but it’s not my idea of heaven. Bhutan might be my first choice.
I guess Hitler knew about ‘object oriented programming’ too.
I lived in Berlin for a year when the wall came down, what a party that was.
Who converted the primarily Hindu region of Kashmir to Islam a few hundred years ago? Some Persian guy I’m told.
Tamasha,
Hitler did not admire the Hindu caste system. He like many lefties of today took that Indomogist Max Mueller and seriously believed in the Aryan Invasion BS theory.
There was no Aryan Invasion. The Rig Veda and Sanksrit all originated in India and not in some Central europe. Eurocentrism has been the mind set of so many leftists and Eurpean historians, they are unable to get past that Euro supremacy. The Aryan Migration theory is central part of that Euro trash Supremacy.
Its the Max Muller worshiping leftists of India and otehr leftists of the world along with the evangelicals and Jesuits who love this theory.
But we ain’t buying this BS.
manny, the AIT is debunked and trashed permanently. Its an european conspiracy theory..
The Myth of the Aryan Invasion of India …..
By David Frawley…..
In closing, it is important to examine the social and political implications of the Aryan invasion idea:
First, it served to divide India into a northern Aryan and southern Dravidian culture which were made hostile to each other. This kept the Hindus divided and is still a source of social tension.
Second, it gave the British an excuse in their conquest of India. They could claim to be doing only what the Aryan ancestors of the Hindus had previously done millennia ago.
Third, it served to make Vedic culture later than and possibly derived from Middle Eastern cultures. With the proximity and relationship of the latter with the Bible and Christianity, this kept the Hindu religion as a sidelight to the development of religion and civilization to the West.
Fourth, it allowed the sciences of India to be given a Greek basis, as any Vedic basis was largely disqualified by the primitive nature of the Vedic culture.
@whatsup and Manny-
Google ‘caste violence’, ‘caste murder’, ‘caste suicide’, ‘caste lynching’, ‘caste rape’, ‘female infanticide’, ‘sati’, ‘bride immolation’, ‘caste immolation’ and ‘caste honor killing’ for starters. Genocide, holocaust, ethnic cleansing, eugenics, whatever you want to call it a hate crime is a hate crime.
Hindu’s have been killing Hindu’s for centuries. Christians have been killing Christians for centuries, Muslims have been killing Muslims for centuries. And every combination thereof.
‘Our world will be a better place when all the killing stops, and that’s just our animals.’ E. Jason Brennan
Ah..Moral relativism. Like we all do things, .
No dearie.. The Holocaust and Genocides are different from spots of violence that happens everywhere from time to time.
No There has never been systematic killings due to caste. Many of the violence in India has been two groups of people killing one another episodically for a very short time.
Never has one group of people systematically killed another another group that could be called ethnic cleansing or Genocide or the Holocaust!
What you are doing is, throwing abortion and all other dirt hoping something would stick.
You mentioned Genocide and ethnic cleansing by Hindus.
The only ethnic cleansing in India was done by the Islamic invaders to India over 700 years Prior to the 300 years of Brits.
@Manny-
Ok, the Tamils are claiming ‘genocide’ right now. What do you make of that?
How about this? Or don’t females count?
Infanticide has been widespread in India for centuries. R.J. Rummel reported:
“In India, for example, because of Hindu beliefs and the rigid caste system, young girls were murdered as a matter of course. When demographic statistics were first collected in the nineteenth century, it was discovered that in “some villages, no girl babies were found at all; in a total of thirty others, there were 343 boys to 54 girls. … [I]n Bombay, the number of girls alive in 1834 was 603.”
Or maybe this?
The Gendercide web site reports:
“A study of Tamil Nadu by the Community Service Guild of Madras … found that ‘female infanticide is rampant’ in the state, though only among Hindu (rather than Moslem or Christian) families. ‘Of the 1,250 families covered by the study, 740 had only one girl child and 249 agreed directly that they had done away with the unwanted girl child. More than 213 of the families had more than one male child whereas half the respondents had only one daughter.” 4,6
“Most strikingly, according to UNICEF, ‘A report from Bombay in 1984 on abortions after prenatal sex determination stated that 7,999 out of 8,000 of the aborted fetuses were females. Sex determination has become a lucrative business’.”
Reuters reports that:
“Around 10 million girls have been killed by their parents over the last 20 years, the government says, as female infanticide and foeticide, although illegal, are still prevalent with boys preferred to girls as breadwinners.” 5
Data on infanticide is quite unreliable. However, if we assume that the 10 million deaths is an accurate estimate and that the cases involved 98% feticide and 2% infanticide, then the three most serious instances of genocide over the past two decades may have been:
The Rwandan genocide of about 800,000 persons based on tribal identity, and
The religiously-based genocide of about 200,000 in Bosnia Herzegovina, involving mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians targeting Muslims, and
The murder of 200,000 newborn girls in India.
Not systematic? Not Hindu? Spots of violence? Is this ok with you? What shall we call it, GENDERCIDE? I’m pro-choice but this seems excessive to the point of being criminal.
Also, I hope you know Hitler did not kill just Jews. Poles, Slavs, homosexuals, the mentally handicapped, and the physically handicapped and anyone else deemed inferior. I have relatives that were sent to Auschwitz because they were pacifists.
@MANNY-
Ethnic cleansing “is a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas. (Commission of Experts Established Pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 780)”.[1]
Can I get a witness? Sit on it and twirl, DEARIE!
Abortion has been going on all around the world. The concept that life begins at birth has been the social norm for most part of the world. If you want to term abortion of a zygot at 2 weeks as murdering babies… well then that is a separate issue of what is universally acceptable and what is the norm and moral and ethical question of should society accept life at inception rather than at birth. You are trying to bring too many different issue..and throwing the kitchen sink while at it hoping something would stick.
And BTW.. is the Abortion and female infanticide have to do with the caste system? I’d say such grotesque culture is probably less so in the upper caste educated folks and its more common with the low caste people
And about the Holocaust where other than Jews were killed. This is very common among antisemites to portray that Jews were not the only ones killed to make the Jewish Holocaust less important. It was just another horrible incident. No.. Never in the history has there been anything like the Holocaust and there has never been anything like that since. It stands on its own as the most horrific thing that has happened to a small tribe of people because of their Dharma.
No dearie.. The target of the Holocaust was primarily the Jews. The 2000 years of mental torture of this small tribe of people for they refuse to give up their Dharma for the Jebus freaks made an entire christian nation to go mad.
@Mohit-
“a OPEN AND FAIR game of WAR , in which one defeated another Kingdom by sheer power and Killer instinct.”
Are you kidding me? Wars are open and fair? Kingdoms do not use ethnicity or religion to justify war? What is this ‘killer instinct’? Killer instinct is a term only used for animals, jokingly at time applied to humans?
I live in Nepal which is one of the oldest and till recently the last Hindu kingdom on Earth. Nepal’s history is rife with tale of one ethnic group (or tribe) killing the neighboring ethnic group (or tribe) off.
Your statement: “Any type of ETHNIC CLEANSING as it did not involve two different Ethnic Groups, technically.” This is the technical definition of ETHNIC CLEANSING:
Ethnic cleansing “is a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas. (Commission of Experts Established Pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 780)”.
See the United Nations reference in parentheses? War is a ‘purposeful policy’.
“In India, for example, because of Hindu beliefs and the rigid caste system, young girls were murdered as a matter of course. When demographic statistics were first collected in the nineteenth century, it was discovered that in “some villages, no girl babies were found at all; in a total of thirty others, there were 343 boys to 54 girls. … [I]n Bombay, the number of girls alive in 1834 was 603.” -RJ. Rummel
Infanticide and murder of young girls is not abortion. Even someone with your limited intellect can figure that out.
“BTW.. is the Abortion and female infanticide have to do with the caste system? I’d say such grotesque culture is probably less so in the upper caste educated folks and its more common with the low caste people.
“In India, for example, because of Hindu beliefs and the rigid caste system, young girls were murdered as a matter of course.
Upper caste, lower caste, it is A HINDU BELIEF AND PART OF THE CASTE SYSTEM. Unless you believe it’s fine for ‘low caste people, to murder their children.
You know Manny I might ALMOST AGREE with you if you made the argument that inthe Hindu population of India as in many societies suffering the stresses of overpopulation female infanticide and foeticide has become acceptable. Some ancient societies in Africa have dealt with overpopulation with male castration.
The grand total of Hitler’s Holocaust was 12 million. Out of this 6 million are estimated to be Jews. Poland, at this time did not even have a total population of 6 million people and lost nearly half its people. Are the 6 million non-Jewish persons killed in the Holocaust any less important than the 6 million Jews killed? Mental torture is quite an ambiguous term.
The 2000 years of mental torture of this small tribe of people for they refuse to give up their Dharma for the Jebus freaks made an entire christian nation to go mad.
There’s a lot more to it than that. Nazi Germany was undergoing a HUGE economic recession at the time. As a social movement, eugenics reached its height of popularity in the early decades of the 20th century. Eugenics is the “applied science or the biosocial movement which advocates the use of practices aimed at improving the genetic composition of a population.” ‘Eugenics’ was practised around the world and was promoted by governments, and influential individuals and institutions. Its advocates regarded it as a social philosophy for the improvement of human hereditary traits through the promotion of higher reproduction of certain people and traits, and the reduction of reproduction of other people and traits. This was a SOCIAL PHILOSOPHY, people really believed this crap. In India, China, South America as well as the US and Europe. The world was a much different place back then. Germany wasn’t the only nation ‘to go mad’. Much documentation of ‘Eugenics programs’ in nations other than Germany has been destroyed, sanitized, or hidden out of shame and embarrassment.
The US spent quite awhile hemming and hawing which side to join in what was to become WWII. This was quite a debate. Pearl Harbor finally forced the decision.
Glad you are in Texas, Manny. That’s a good place for you. YEEE HAW!!!
Its disingenuous to compare the inevitable stuff that goes on in very poor communities/countries to what educated and powerful people do in a country as a system.
Its also the fact, the leftist/socialists need to own up to the mess that keeps 700 million in abject poverty.
It has nothing to do with the caste system or Hinduism. But you having married to a Muslim seems to have this Antisemetic and Anti Hindu prejudices. To be honest I am not surprised at all.
Read the post Mohit just posted in regards to Islamic Iconoclasm.
Hindus have been tyrannized by Muslims for 700 years followed by the Brits for 300 years. Then after 1947, the socialists had taken over and the left communists, maoists and anti Hindus have taken over.
That makes 1000 years where Hindus were busy trying to survive. This is the history of Hindus and Indians in general.
Anti Hindu sentiments are thrown in today like its totally acceptable like Antisemitism was so acceptable prior to the 40s.
Its uncanny, how an Anti Hindu is also an Antisemitic.
@Tamasha
Your trying equate abortion and ethnic cleansing. Looks like you do not even understand basic English.
India does have selective abortion which is female infanticide which is shameful but equating that ethnic cleansing is delusional.
Yours and your husband religion has murdered millions of people when they did not follow Islam or Christianity do not equate that eastern religions.
@ TAMASHA ..
““I don’t believe in India’s history one ethnic group never tried to wipe out another ethnic group”
————————————————————————————-
Your assumption is blatantly wrong from its starting. Because In India ethinicity was never more important than Religion , except for short periods in History.
Yes , There may have been some tensions between Biharis and Marathis , Kannadigas and Marathis , Tamilians and Hindis but it never went to the extent of Extreme hatred for each other as Most Indians are bound by Bigger Strings of Religion , that is SANATANA DHARMA or HINDU , as we say today.
The biggest bloodshed in the history of India occured in 1947 after the partition and that included Hindus and Muslims. Obviously these were two religious groups and not ethinic groups. Infact whole of the Punjab (Hindu or Muslims) were same ethnic groups but they buthchered each other.
It is true that history of India is not free from Blood. But if you go into the details , you will find , its was not a typical western “ETHNIC CLEASENING” but a OPEN AND FAIR game of WAR , in which one defeated another Kingdom by sheer power and Killer instinct.
One such instant in the History of India is “KALINGA WAR” where Emperor Ashoka fought a war with Kalinga State and won emphatically but with a very big bloodshed in the History of India.
These type of Warfare were existant in Ancient India for acquiring “VARCHASWA” means “ABSOLUTE POWER” but it never had even a small tinge of Hatred for any Ethnic Group of India.
And to those , who reptedly raises the point of Catse Sytem of India , should try to understand that IT INCLUDED AND CONSIDERED SHUDRA AN INTEGRAL PART OF SYSTEM and didnt suggest to kill or murder them on first sight as is with the case of Jews Holocaust , Australian Aborigins , Amerindians , etc etc..
@Mohit-
The campaign against the American Indian was deemed a ‘war’ (not genocide or ethnic cleansing) until recently. It was an erratic and definitely NOT systematic action.
The winners get to write history, much later usually.
Like I said the Tamils are claiming ‘genocide’ right now, AGAIN.
Not many genocides occurred as you say ‘to kill or murder them on first sight’. Starving someone or infecting them with smallpox takes a while. The Armenian genocide and the Rwandan genocide ARE examples of ‘murder on first sight’ and most definitely NOT western.
“The biggest bloodshed in the history of India occured in 1947 after the partition and that included Hindus and Muslims. Obviously these were two religious groups and not ethinic groups. Infact whole of the Punjab (Hindu or Muslims) were same ethnic groups but they buthchered each other.” So what do we call it, ‘religious cleansing’? COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ethnic cleansing “is a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas. (Commission of Experts Established Pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 780)”.[1]
THERE IT IS THE OFFICIAL FARGING DEFINITION OF ETHNIC CLEANSING WHICH INCLUDES RELIGIOUS GROUPS!!!!!!!!
I rest my case.
Amen. HALLELUJAH.
See , I was not justifying any killinG or bloodshed , wheather it was based on ETHINICITY or RELIGION.
My reference to the Partion-Bloodshed was to taking your attention to the fact that History of Indian excluded Any type of ETHNIC CLEANSING as it did not involve two different Ethnic Groups, technically.
And it was not a pre-planned or systematic procedure of killing.It was a riot out of anger and frustration. And riots are never planned.They just happen as the consequences of something MAJOR. And partition was a major thing.And Hindu-Muslim relation in India are not so simplified that you can call any Violent Encounter of these communities as ETHNIC CLEANSING.
In India Hindu-Muslim have existed for last 1000 years and they still co-exist. So , I or any real Indian will not subscribe to your theory that , at any point of time in India’s history , there was even a minor wave flowing in any ethnic group of India to wipe out another.
See , you have gathered much knowledge about India.Thats good. But to interpretate that in right perspective is also important.There is very wise saying..which goes like following..
“To know that Tomato is a fruit is Knowledge , but not to put it in a Fruit Salad is Wisdom.”
I hope you get my point. Everybody knows that , in theory US and NATO have killed more people than OSAMA or AL-Qaida has , but to call US and NATO , terrorist is lack of wisdom.
I also rest my case.
JAI SHREE RAM
JAI HIND……
@ TAMASHA ..
I have never seen a bigger Tamasha than you online.
You are so hellbent to prove the existance of GENOCIDE and “Ethinic cleansing” in India that you Include “Female Infanticide” and “abortion” as a form of GENOCIDE or “Ethnic Cleansing” JUUUUUUSSST RIDICULOUS………
I cant belive , to “prove” you ‘silly’ point , you can go from ‘mid-on’ to ‘deep fine-leg’.. and then just drop the ‘catch’ in the game..
Now , you will say that use of Condoms and Pills are also a systema and Purposefull procedure for a GENOCIDE.
I thought you was a sincere debater but now you seem to have a one-point agenda and posses lack of vision , wisdom and flexibility for a constructive discussion..
YOU HAVE PROVED , YOU ARE JUST A TAMASHA(Show-off.. )..
@ TAMASHA
For you , I have invested my precious time to find out GENCOCIDE in Indian History and now I am with Substantial proof that It were NATIVE HINDU POPULATION , which was always the victim of these GENOCIDE by MUSLIM INVADERS. I present my text slides..
1. “The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period.”
- Will Durant argued in his 1935 book “The Story of Civilization: Our Oriental Heritage” (page 459):
2.Prof. K.S. Lal, suggests a calculation in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India which estimates that between the years 1000 AD and 1500 AD the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. Even those Hindus who converted to Islam were not immune from persecution, which was illustrated by the Muslim Caste System in India as established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari.where they were regarded as “Ajlaf” caste and subjected to severe discrimination by the “Ashraf” castes.
3.Mahmud of Ghazni was an Afghan Sultan who invaded the Indian subcontinent during the early 11th century. His campaigns across the gangetic plains are often cited for their iconoclastic plundering and destruction of temples such as those at Mathura and he looked upon their destruction as an act of “jihad”.
Pradyumna Prasad Karan further describes Mahmud’s invasion as one in which he put “thousands of Hindus to the sword” and made a pastime of “raising pyramids of the skulls of the Hindus”.
4.Muhammad Ghori committed genocide against Hindus at Kol (modern Aligarh), Kalinjar and Varanasi, according to Hasan Nizami’s Taj-ul-Maasir, 20,000 Hindu prisoners were slaughtered and their heads offered to crows.
5. Timur himself recorded the invasions in his memoirs, collectively known as Tuzk-i-Timuri. In them, he vividly described the massacre at Delhi:
In a short space of time all the people in the Delhi fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground….All these infidel Hindus were slain, their women and children, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death.
6.Historical records compiled by Muslim historian Maulana Hakim Saiyid Abdul Hai attest to the iconoclasm of Qutb-ud-din Aybak. The first mosque built in Delhi, the “Quwwat al-Islam” was built after the demolition of the Hindu temple built previously by Prithvi Raj and certain parts of the temple were left outside the mosque proper.This pattern of iconoclasm was common during his reign, although an argument goes that such iconoclasm was motivated more by politics than by religion.
7.Another ruler of the sultanate, Shams-ud-din Iltutmish, conquered and subjugated the Hindu pilgrimage site Varanasi in the 11th century and he continued the destruction of Hindu temples and idols that had begun during the first attack in 1194.
8.Firuz Shah Tughluq was the third ruler of the Tughlaq dynasty of the Delhi Sultanate. The “Tarikh-i-Firuz Shah” is a historical record written during his reign that attests to the systematic persecution of Hindus under his rule.In particular, it records atrocities committed against Hindu Brahmin priests who refused to convert to Islam:
“ An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan. The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completely enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude.”
9.The Mughal Empire was marked by periods of tolerance of non-Muslims, such as Hindus and Sikhs, as well as periods of violent oppression and persecution of those people. The reign of Aurangzeb was particularly brutal. No aspect of Aurangzeb’s reign is more cited – or more controversial – than the numerous desecrations and even the destruction of Hindu temples.banned Diwali, placed a jizya (tax) on non-Muslims and martyred the ninth Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur.
During his reign, tens of thousands of temples were desecrated: their facades and interiors were defaced and their murtis (divine images) looted. In many cases, temples were destroyed entirely; in numerous instances mosques were built on their foundations, sometimes using the same stones. Among the temples Aurangzeb destroyed were two that are most sacred to Hindus, in Varanasi and Mathura. In both cases, he had large mosques built on the sites.
I can represent more Historical Facts about the atrocities on Populations of India. But I know , any amount of Fact will not alter the mindest of people like you who have been brainwashed by the follower of Most-Peacefull Religion in the World..
@WHATSUP, MOHIT, MANNY-
Really? I am not anti-Hindu, anti-Semitic (Semites are both Arabs and Jews), anti-Judaic, anti-Buddhist, anti-Zoroastrian or anti any religious or ethnic group. I am just realistic about human behavior.
Lets keep this SIMPLE.
I made the statement: “I don’t believe in India’s history one ethnic group never tried to wipe out another ethnic group”
ETHNIC GROUP MEANS PEOPLE OF THE SAME RACE OR NATIONALITY WHO SHARE A DISTINCTIVE CULTURE.
THE TERM “ETHNIC GROUP” DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN HINDU!!!!!
NEVER IS A VERY LONG TIME.
Dispute this;
This is taken from ANCIENT INDIA, by author Ramesh Chandra Majumdar, ISBN 8120804368, publisher Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, a standard textbook written by an Indian for Indians. From India’s history pre-Vedic , pre-Alexander the Great incursions, and pre-intrusion of Islam marauders:
“The indigenous peoples had to fight for their very existence… and laid down their lives in hundreds and thousands on various battlefields, but ultimately had to succumb to the invaders. The invaders destroyed their castles and cities, burnt their houses, and reduced a large number of them to slaves.”
NO GROUP CLAIMING TO BE “HINDU” EVEN EXISTED AT THIS TIME.
I never claimed Islam, Christianity, or any religious group to be without transgressions.
Have we all ‘learned’ something now?
Never ASSUME anything, it makes an ASS out of U and ME.
Who where those invaders. First let me tell you. Some of India’s universities like Delhi University and JNU etc have these far lefttists Maoists sympathizing writing nonsense on Indian History.
If you had been following the recent Ayodhia verdict and read the court briefing on these academia, you would have noticed how the high court justice exposed these JNU leftist academicians.
Here you go.
This pretty summarizes what has been going on for a long time in India. Dr Koenraad is an archeologist and historian and on the high court findings about Islamic Iconoclasm and the JNU leftist professors credibility in all these things.,
Dr. Koenraad Elst speaks about the Ayodhya verdict 1 of 6.Recent interview=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9FmXTKGPrg
…
Dr. Koenraad Elst speaks about the Ayodhya verdict 2 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR4jrHA7qAY&feature=related
Dr. Koenraad Elst speaks about the Ayodhya verdict 3 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2-EUwqI1MY&feature=related
Dr. Koenraad Elst speaks about the Ayodhya verdict 4 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWbqDky7-zs&feature=related
Dr. Koenraad Elst speaks about the Ayodhya verdict 5 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZvQr9m_ZMQ&feature=related
Dr. Koenraad Elst speaks about the Ayodhya verdict 6 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJQfdez9xIY&feature=related
Who were those invaders indeed? Dr. Elst has a great website. He’s supposed to be related to my mom somehow. Indians need a Belgian to tell them this stuff?
How bout those lefty academicians? Isn’t the American education system just rife with them? Every subject in American education seems to have become a politico-social platform.
Recent genetic studies suggest the “aryan” invasion might really have been genetically European males ‘migrating’? (I’m not sure what the ‘politically correct’ term for the ancient influx of INVADER Y chromosome genetic material into the upper castes currently is.) WE MAY BE COUSINS MANNY! Check it out:
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/
Does knowing who ‘invaded’ who matter? Is it really going to change anything?
Ciao for now!
If you are related to Dr. Elst,. I forgive you for all your sins!
Call me old fashioned. Yes reasonable account of history and truth matters dear!
BTW..thanks for that link.
“Recent genetic studies suggest the “aryan” invasion might really have been genetically European males ‘migrating’?”
Stop inventing your own theories and spreading fake information, to the many ignorant people of the world. None of the “World Migration Patterns” will support your theory either. I gave up replying your comments, because you were coming back with the same stuff that I posted or straying from the topic, but I can’t see you spreading incorrect stuff. If you really want to invent something, invent a “RELIGION”.
“WE MAY BE COUSINS MANNY”
Why is this a surpise?…We are humans and are related to each other, in some or the other way. According to your western theory, it is “Adam and Eve”…and if you interpret the correct theory from the Vedas, it is probably much more complicated and something related to the Cosmos. If you really think that Manny is your cousin, you can probably check “geneology.com” or any other related site. Recently, there was also news (from this site) that “Barack Obama” and “Sarah Palin” are distant cousisn…bwahhaha.
@ TAMASHA
The only thing worth mention in your posting , which I liked was the last sentence in which , you smartly and itelligently put up the definition of ASSUME.
See , Before any Christian and Muslim Invasion , 99.99% population of India was HINDU. So when we talk about the pre-islamic , pre-alexander History of India then INDIAN and HIndu are interchangable terms.
As you , yourself said “ETHNIC GROUP MEANS PEOPLE OF THE SAME RACE OR NATIONALITY WHO SHARE A DISTINCTIVE CULTURE.”
By this definition all Indians are of same Ehnic Group they have Same Nationality and RACE.So when all people are of same ethinc group , how can a question of Ethnic Clashes between them arise???
And you given the Excerpts from a historian.
“The indigenous peoples had to fight for their very existence… and laid down their lives in hundreds and thousands on various battlefields, but ultimately had to succumb to the invaders. The invaders destroyed their castles and cities, burnt their houses, and reduced a large number of them to slaves.”
Abobe proves what I want to say , actually.That those were the invaders , who tried to wipe out Indians and Hindus (the same indigenous people) and not one of any Ethnic Group of India.
Now , I come to your statement.
““I don’t believe in India’s history one ethnic group never tried to wipe out another ethnic group”.
The problem with your statement is that it faulters at using the right terms and their interpretation.
From your statement it seems as if one ethnic group of India tried and/or wiped out another ethnic group (you believe)..which is wrong..!!
The statement should have been like..
““I don’t believe in India’s history OUTSIDE INVADER or Foreign ETHNIC GROUP never tried to wipe out INDIAN/HINDU ethnic group”.
Dont object at the using of term Hindu.According to the supreme court of India , Anyone Living in INDIA is A HINDU as its not a religion its a Life-Style. So Respect the SUPREME COURT ..
@Mohit-
I said and I quote;
“I don’t believe in India’s history one ethnic group never tried to wipe out another ethnic group”
This statement does not tell where EITHER ETHNIC GROUP COMES FROM. Either ethnic group could come from Mars or Uranus but the ‘tried to wipe out another’ business HAS to take place in “India’s history”.
My statement should NOT have been:
““I don’t believe in India’s history OUTSIDE INVADER or Foreign ETHNIC GROUP never tried to wipe out INDIAN/HINDU ethnic group”.
Because this is NOT what I meant to say. Who knows where the invaders came from? They could have come from the Thar Desert, the Western Ghats, Khyber Pass, or Uranus or wherever. Whether they are an ‘OUTSIDE INVADER’ or an ‘INDIAN/HINDU’ is PURPOSELY NOT MENTIONED.
This has come down to being a misunderstanding due to a lack of knowledge of ENGLISH GRAMMAR, SYNTAX, SEMANTICS, AND VOCABULARY. I realize English is not your first language and English is a very difficult language to learn. I’LL BE THE FIRST TO ADMIT MOST AMERICANS CAN NOT SPEAK OR WRITE ENGLISH WELL! But if you are going to comment on a blog in English please be aware your translation of posts may be incorrect. Much of your posts are unintelligible due to the grammatic, semantic, and syntax errors as well as deficiencies in vocabulary. I mean that in the best possible way.
Peace be upon you, Bibi..from Nepal, the last Hindu kingdom to fall to modern insensibilities such as communism.
@ TAMASHA
hahahahahahaha.. let me lough first .. I mean , you are so adamant …
I mean , when you have nothing substantial content to prove your point then you bring in the SEMATICS. ha !
I mean , there in NO INTELLIGENCE in telling the world that English is not my first language. Everybody knows that !! No Indian has English as his first language.
But , to construct or interpretate a single and simple sentence of English , I dont have to be Shakespeare. OK.
And regarding my Apparent Lack of Grammar , Syntax , Vocabulary , I just want to say that this is just a blog and such mistakes are inevitable for Mortal creature like me and you. This is not a Literature Class where I have to prove my literary prowess to anyone.
But I can assure you, that whenever , you invite me to indulge in something like that , I can be proved too intelligent to be understood by people whose first language is English.
Bhagwan RAM TUMHARE BHALA KARE ..
and Please keep you peace with yourself and Muhammed Sahab. I dont need it. I have plety of it already ..
JAI SHREE RAM..
JAI HIND…
@Mohit-
Our genial host Sharell writes beautifully;
‘The combination of shiny silver jumpsuit, gyrating hips, and pumping pelvises leaves me transfixed and speechless.’
Note the placement of a comma before an ‘and’. Note the placement of verbs, nouns, and adjectives.
You said;
‘But I can assure you, that whenever , you invite me to indulge in something like that , I can be proved too intelligent to be understood by people whose first language is English.
This sentence structure is not English and is unintelligent.
So? Prove yourself intelligent to all, LEARN ENGLISH.
BAKWAS BANDH KARO!!!!
Hahahahaha..
My English Teacher and Preacher .. I have started loving you for your undiminishing passion to continue a non-existant debate ..!!! Lol..
And you say that what I wrote is not an English ..!!! Hahaha ..
THEN PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IT IS ???
Is it Arabic ? Langauge of your peacefull religion ???
I am surprised about the fact that you are actually classfying some casual comments on a blog topic as “UNINTELLIGENT” Its the first time I am seeing this type of classification for a piece of writing.
More suprising is the fact that you catually want to see intelligence in my writing when you have none of it in your brain. sorry I am rude..!!
And yes , I do not need to prove myself intelligent to anyone now, as I have already proved myself intelligent to a lot of intelligent people.Having studied from IIT (have u heard about them hehehe) is one of them..!!
Now I come to the grammar part of what Sharell wrote.!!
But before I come to any conclusion , I would say that just because Sharell wrote it doesnt mean , it is perfect.But Sharell is a good writer.
The comma used by Sharell and You before an “AND” is Gramatically wrong and I have the reasons for it.
This is called serial comma or Oxford comma and you can use it in two conditions.
Fisrts if there is a case of AMBIGUITY.Follow the example below ..
“To my parent , Ram , and God.”
Here a serial comma was required.If we dont put a comma before “AND” it would seem as if writer is implying thar RAM and GOD are his parents.
And Second if there are two independent clause to be joined.Example follows..!!
“Tamasha was very adamant girl in childhood , and now she is most adamant woman in the town.”
He two indepent clauses are beeing join by and “AND” so the usage of a comma is right.
Both Sharell and you have failed to find a proper place to put comma in the sentence. And you both are Native speaker of English. Alas..!!!
You know what every educated Indian is beeter than any westerner from an English-Speaking country in a sense that he is almost efficient in atleast in two languages , English and Hindi or his regional language.
But I have seen very FEW Educated Westerner from English speaking countries who know other languages.
I know better English than you know Hindi. So factually , I am more intelligent than you.So you should respect me ……hahahahaha..
AUR HAAN……
THODA TAMEEZ SE BAAT KIYA KARO ..
“BAKWAS” is not a very good word to use.Its used by persons of lower educational and social status or between close friends.And I think you are none. Its just an ADVICE.
And yes everybody has different writing style. I have my own. Sharell has her own and you have your own. There ia nothing Intelligent or unintelligent about it.
I write in simple words so that it doesnt become profound.Not that i am short of complex and literary words considering I got very high score in GRE.
PEACE BE UPON YOU ..!!!
MUHAAMED SAHAB KI JAI HO…!!!
Yes indeed you are the stereotypical boorish, ill mannered, ill spoken, rude, and partially educated Indian.
To improve your communication skills you may wish to check out this website:http://ec.europa.eu/translation/writing/clear_writing/how_to_write_clearly_en.pdf
I take my excellent grammar and composition from a 25 year career in professional writing and the book: “The Elements of Style”‘ by William Strunk, Jr.
I’m just trying to be helpful so that someone who is of such clearly superior intellect can be understood as such. Personally attacking me, Christians or Muslims does not prove your point. Meaningless counter accusations do not prove your point either.
We will keep this simple as you are prone to emotions clouding your rants.
Explain to me the plight of the Tamils, how is this not ‘ethnic violence’ or ‘genocide’?
Feliz Navidad y prospero ano y felicidad!
(I’m fluent in Spanish also.)
@Mohit-
The serial comma (also known as the Oxford comma or Harvard comma, and sometimes referred to as the series comma) is the comma used immediately before a coordinating conjunction (usually and or or, sometimes nor) preceding the final item in a list of three or more items. For example, a list of three countries can be punctuated as either “Portugal, Spain, and France” (with the serial comma) or as “Portugal, Spain and France” (without the serial comma).
Both are correct. Once again you are WRONG.
Tamasha (and shadow),
“India’s history pre-Vedic..”
A contemporary researcher , Nicholas Kazanas (google), asserted that the RigVeda was written before 3,500 BCE, whilst presenting his work in your home state CA during 2008. So where from this Majumdar got his references from, for him to confirm the ‘thousands’ of battles that took place some 5,500 yrs ago? And why should anyone deny them assuming they indeed took place in prevedic times. One ought to get the info from sanskrit, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek or Roman scriptures and thats about it. No documentation existed beyond these civilizations. Opinions are sold as facts by tabloid variety book writers.. You lamented that even last 500 yrs history wasn’t taught in Indian schools; yes we all know that, the corrupt politicians want to appease the vote banks.
where are you going with this hatemongering posts Miss? Your conditional religious conversion is not the result of a hindu ploy. It is the classic outcome of the works of an intolerant faith, your current one at that. I cannot elaborate on this, you ought to know better. Thus your misplaced anger is clearly unjustified.. Start at the very beginning- watch this Peter Brooks 6 hr Mahabharata video (in piece meal on youtube) that shows the origins of Bharat (a k a India).
Hope you don’t believe in the false propaganda doing rounds that bollywood, cricket, curries and cows is all that there is to hindus. Even animals must be treated with love and dignity, the above epic stressed. The following are the opening and last scenes of this greatest epic ever narrated by man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_SyaO3loKg&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcB-MuaU03k&feature=related
Read work of Nicholas Kazanas, a contemporary Greek scholar. And then read History of India by Francois Gautier, a Frenchman who is living in Pune. Meet him if you can.
Do you think Jerry Springer is all that there is to reflect american society? Whilst still living there go start over start afresh, it’s a different world as you already know it. Now explore the Brahman/ nondualism concept and ignore the cows for a moment.
Start thinking next as to why the cows and monkeys are NOT euthanized that they are a constant menace in hindu mandirs. Animal activists were writing some hindu tenets some millennia ago. Finally, you have a greater role to play as a muslim to clean up your own house. Liberate the beleaguered women. Google wafa sultan, ayaan Hirsi ali and faithfreedom.org ( all are muslims/ run blogs, So that you cannot blame hate speech there). Iam glad you do read and research.
What I am wondering is how modern Hindu’s have come to believe that martial prowess is as much a part of their tradition as non-violence. Why do the mostly Hindu population of India want to be a military superpower so badly? I can understand wanting to be an economic superpower. Military superiority seems anathema to the non-violent traditions and beliefs of Hinduism.
I can rant for days on the flaws, social evils, and transgressions of Chritianity and Islam. Do not get me started.
I never said I resented my conversion to be a Hindu ploy. If you take my posts to be angry, that is your opinion. Hate mongering was never my intention, implying some Hindu practices are negative should be also tolerated and is not a personal attack. I mention negative behaviors of Hindu’s, I am accused of being anti-Hindu.
I have said nothing anti-Semitic, yet I am accused of anti-Semitism.
The Christian bible beats the Koran spectacularly in sanctioning anti-Semitism. Why posters on a blog about ‘the Indian inferiority complex’ feel the need to bring up Hitler and the Holocaust is beyond me.
I choose to live in a primarily Hindu nation, Nepal. I choose to make my living selling Buddhist and Hindu art and ritual objects in my gallery in Nepal. Buddhist art has been my passion for most of my life, Hindu a close second. Almost daily I have to explain to western tourists why there is a Swastika in Buddhist/Hindu art. I’m not out supporting the communists nor the animal rights activists when they attempt to ban the blood sacrifices in Hindu rituals in Nepal. And they get pretty bloody let me tell you. Try explaining that to western tourists and not get snarled at.
Where you are going with your cows, cricket, Jerry Springer, curries, and Bollywood I’m not sure. Are you inferring I am so shallow that cows and curry are all I know about Hinduism?
Majumdar claimed his information was from archeological research and sites. Are archeological sites less reliable than documentation? One would hope at least SOME of the sites he visited gave evidence of the battles he alleged took place. Otherwise, I’m not certain of his agenda.
As far as ‘cleaning up my own house’ as a Muslim, I’m choosing to limit myself to observation just now. Modern Kashmiri Muslim culture is like nothing I’ve ever experienced. It is painful to watch, and almost worse to hear what the youth of Kashmir believe. Unfortunately like youth everywhere …THEY KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU CAN’T TELL THEM ANYTHING.
Namaskar, Bibi.
India is surrounded by a bunch of Lunatics.
To the west is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. To the North is the Dharmic country of Tibet that is occupied bu the Han Chinese communists. To the East are the Burmese Junta colluding with the Commie Chinese.
And you want India to not prepare itself?
Imagine a peace activist during WWII preaching non war BS to America. Do you not see the immorality of such a thing? I totally disagree with Gandhi on that front.
The Bhagwat Gita is about doing ones duty. All injustice is to be fought. There are righteous wars. So, No. Hinduism does not prescribe avoidance of war AT ANY COST!
@Manny-
We are down to 5 hours of electricity a day in Nepal. Let’s make this quick, you said:
“And you want India to not prepare itself? ”
DO NOT TELL ME WHAT I WANT.
Preparing oneself and being a ‘superpower’ are two different things. you forgot to mention that Thailand is not the peaceable kingdom we once thought either.
@Tamasha
From what I read (so far), I wouldn’t call you “Anti-Hindu”..Even if you are anti-Hindu, you have the right to express your opinion. Its just that some of your observations are correct and some are wrong or biased.
You said that you are related to some “Koenrad Elst” and that some relative of yours, was sent to ‘Auschwitz concentration camp’. So, are you Jewish?…If you are Jewish and married to a Muslim, its really a wonder!
….and I hope Israeli’s and Arabs can resort to a better dialogue, ease their misunderstandings and resolve things, peacefully! 
@ Prashant:Tamasha, by her own admission here, was a Christian until an hour before her wedding to a muslim. She officially signed a conversion agreement in the presence of muslim cleric first and ONLY THEN her wedding contract was signed and sealed. I was curious to see if she had any different experience when she married a muslim, nope she didnt. She was not Jewish, ever.
@Prasanth-
Manyy is the one calling people ‘anti-Hindu’ and ‘antisemitic’ all the while referring to Christians and Nazi’s as “Jesus Freaks”. How offensive is that?
I said earlier my mom is Dutch speaking Belgian same as Dr Elst. I am not Jewish. I have 7 relatives that were sent to Auschwitz for being PACIFISTS and thus undesirable to the Nazi’s.
FOR YOUR INFORMATION: Mohammed the prophet had a Jewish wife.
Sheesh.
@ TAMASHA
“I can understand wanting to be an economic superpower. Military superiority seems anathema to the non-violent traditions and beliefs of Hinduism.”
—————————————————————————
Hinduism and NON-VIOLENCE ??? Are you kidding?? you must be..
JUST QUOTE A SINGLE VERSES FROM ANY AUTHENTIC HINDU RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURE WHICH PREACHES NON-VOILENCE AT ALL TIME.I WILL SAUTE YOU..!!!
RAMAYAN , MAHABAHRATA are Religious Epic and that are full of violence in the form of war, Even in GITA Krishna tell the importance of war !!! I mean how can you even state that HINDUISM means NON-VIOLENCE..
You are another example of a western “Intellect” who knows “Everything about India and Hinduism. hahahahaha..
Let me Tell you that Non-Violence is part of Bauddha Dharma and Not Hinduism.
Just Because one Mahatma Gandhi preahced Non-violence , desont mean Hinduism is all about cowardice Non-Violence.
So for westeners MAHATMA GANDI = HINDUISM .. lol…
In Gita its is said ..
“Karmanye wadhikarsate ma faleshu kadachan”
@Mohit-
Ahimsa (Sanskrit: Devanagari; अहिंसा; IAST ahiṃsā, Pāli: avihiṃsā) is a term meaning to do no harm (literally: the avoidance of violence – himsa). It is an important tenet of the Indian religions (Hinduism, Buddhism and especially Jainism). Ahimsa means kindness and non-violence towards all living things including animals; it respects living beings as a unity, the belief that all living things are connected. The Chandogya Upanishad, dated to the 8th or 7th century BCE, one of the oldest Upanishads, has the earliest evidence for the use of the word ahimsa in the sense familiar in Hinduism (a code of conduct). It bars violence against “all creatures” (sarva-bhuta) and the practitioner of ahimsa is said to escape from the cycle of reincarnation It also names ahimsa as one of five essential virtues .
This is not an important tenet of Hinduism?
I do not claim to know everything about India and Hinduism.
But I do know that you are WRONG.
You do prove my original point that ‘India is just as violent as the west’.
vaya con dios!
Common !!!!!
First try to spell the word right. It should be AHINSA and not AHIMSA as most westeners spell it. Because in अहिंसा the point(.) is used to get a sound of “n” not “m”.
Now I come to the point. You have not presented any HISTORICAL or DOCUMENTED PROOF to show that non-violence was the main essance of Hinduism. The use of word “अहिंसा” in UPANISHAD doesnt prove anything.Yes it was prefferable to avoid violence against innocent people and animals but COWARDICE NON-VIOLENCE in the emegency situation of war and conflits was not PREACHED.
I do not prove your any point.
You previous point was about EXISTENCE OF ETHNIC CLEANSING in India , WHICH WAS WRONG IS WRONG AND WILL WRONG FOR EVER.
I do say that Violence happened in Indian History.I also say that NONE of the Hindu Religious Scripture(RAMAYAN , MAHABHARAT AND GITA ) essentially preaches NON-VIOLENCE at any cost. But Having said that , I also say that none of the VIOLENCE was RACE or ETHINICITY RELATED.
So there are two different points. Dont mix them.
1. There was no ethnic cleansing in Indian History.
2. Hinduism doesnt preaches non-violence essentially.
And you say , you DO KNOW that I am WRONG.Then I tell you that Every American Think that whole world is WRONG.
So , what you think doesnt become a FACT.
Dont be foolish enough to proclaim that you know more about Hindusim than a guy like ME , who has got the best possible education of Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma at one of the best Organisation of Hindu-related education ,that is , Sanatan Dharma Mahamadal Simiti.
It will be foolish for me to claim that I know more about catholicism than a Student and Follower of VATICAN.
AND STOP DEMONISING INDIA ….
JAI SHREE RAM …
JAI HIND..
ALLAH HAFIZ….
@Mohit-
Please translate for me as you reinvent the English language:
’2. Hinduism doesnt preaches non-violence essentially.
and:
“I do not prove your any point.”
What language are you attempting to speak?
Please explain for me the plight of the Tamils. The Tamils themselves repeatedly allege ‘genocide’.
I am not demonizing India, I am pointing out that India has the same predilection for violence as western countries despite this tradition of nonviolence. “India”, said respected Chakravarti Rajagopalachari, leader of the Swatantra Party, “has totally lost the moral power to raise her voice against the use of military power.”
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!
@Tamasha, whilst agreeing with you that ahimsa is one strong indispenable hindu tenet, i must say in order to uphold dharma wars were resorted to in the two epics, ramayana and mahabharata. Ahimsa at the expense of dharma simply tantamounts to adharma. FF to 2010, ‘credible deterrence doctrine’ is adopted by Delhi. China is armed to its teeth and in 1962 yhey both faced off in a short war.Delhi asserts that the potential damage that can be inflicted by it should be unacceptable to any future enemy.
@Surya-
How can a behemoth such as China be deterred? What sort of damage is unacceptable to China or the ‘failed state’ of Pakistan? History shows casualties in the tens of millions (if not more) attributed to Mao, Stalin, and Lenin. Pakistan does not seem particularly concerned about the well being of it’s citizenry either. Sadly, Nepal is becoming increasingly antiIndian and proChina. Does India really need the nuclear possibility of world destruction to defend itself?
Merry Xmas!
Merry Christmas, Tamasha!, Surya, Mohit, Prashant and all!
I guess a behemoth like China can be challenged by another behemoth like India.
Or a ‘small’ nation like Japan.
Any war with a foreign power and its results have a different effect on the psyche of the people as opposed to a Civil war or political strife or revolution as the basic nature/existence of a country is threatened by the former while the form of governance, the governing people are changed by the latter and that, too by those of the same nationality.
A fine example is the effect of a war with Pakistan or, for that matter a cricket match with Pakistan has on Indians, be they of any state, religion or community.
I agree the damage caused by internal political strife may be larger in terms of lives lost, but the challenge and the potential loss of the idea of one’s nation, one’s freedom is always greater on the collective national psyche.
You compared Nepalis and Indians in terms of their behaviour once and put forward a theory that it might be due to the fact that India was ruled by foreign powers….
Some of India’s neighbours cannot be termed as ‘very friendly’ and on that account, India has maintained or tried to maintain its conventional as well as nuclear deterrence to protect her sovereignity, which has, nevertheless been threatened.
So, in my belief, not only is nuclear deterrence should be safeguarded by India, but she should also try to acquire and safeguard mastery over space exploration and warfare, which is now considered as the future frontier.
The problem is, the present murky political situation over nuclear power and its responsibility among the present and newer addition of nations capable of nuclear WMD production plus India’s rather potential trigger-happy neighbourly nations/groups plus India’s size, in terms of land-mass, people, economic and political well-being calls for some amount of deterrence, which frankly, conventionsl weapons have failed to provide and even nuclear weapons almost failed, too.
India has, as explained admirably above, not had a history of non-violence in terms of politics, excluding, maybe the instances of Emperor Ashoka, The Great, post-Buddhism and Mahatma Gandhi’s attempt at ahinsa.
India does have, however, the dubious right of not attacking another country in the recent few centuries. So, while India may not have the moral right to raise her voice against the use of military power to defend itself, it does reserve such a right to protest military invasion/aggression against a friendly/neutral nation.
Yeah, we’re hypocritic as Indians, and inferior as them. Thats probably the only two things that unites Indians everywhere, apart from being cheap as well. as you can see by my posts, im really hating it here. ive lived in india for most of my life, but i dont like it after seeing the better side of the west. call me unpatriotic, but if people in the US can be that good, that clean, that polite and that…evolved mentally, why cant we Indians? GOD
Because the vast majority of Indians are far leftists who can;t do anything for themselves..they are waiting for others to do things for them. Welcome to the Congress Party.
Why did you act condescending when I talked about how to teach myself things that my parents didn’t teach? You’re saying Indians wait for others to do things for them. When I’m working on empowering myself, you still act like a jerk.
At least you should give some credit to those that worked their butt off to get where they are today.
@ TAMASHA
“Much of your posts are unintelligible due to the grammatic, semantic, and syntax errors as well as deficiencies in vocabulary.”
————————————————————————————-
I have never seen such a poor teacher of English , who is making syntax errors in the very sentence in which , SHE is preaching about the same.
I have never seen a comma (,) before an “AND” .. as you used it in ur sentence.. so next time before you question the knowledge of Langauge of others and become judgemental , please CHECK YOURSELF ALSO.
and yes , ENglish is SIMPLEST LANGUAGE in the world and not difficult as you said. Even Rikshawala in Paharganj speak English. But I am yet to see a native English Speaker , speaking HINDI fluently except TOM ALTER.
JAI SHREE RAM..
@ mile772 & JAYESH-G:
I talked about ‘cultural connection’, not ‘existence’. I suggest you both cool your head, review what I have said and if necessary, look up the dictionary.
Jews do exist in India just like Parsis, Syrians, Copts or Anglo-Indians. They are as rare as snow in India, with too little cultural footprint. Most Indians would mistake an Indian Jew for a Christian or Muslim, either by appearance, customs or name.
They are not rare Abraham religions have their origins in India and there is a long cultural influence from India in the middle east.most people today might not know about that cause the people who wrote the history deny it.
Mr. Abdullah K., I guess you are little right and a little wrong.
Parsi cultural footprint is strong and the friendly ‘babaji’ has at least a comparable enough endearing and familiarity as the Gujju/Sardarji, in India due to their illustrious buisinesses and unique culture and history.
J. R. D. is a National Hero since he became the first Indian to fly a plane from England to India.
Their religious isolation, though, is of their own making.
The Jews, on the other hand, have more or less, kept a low profile all along.
But yes, they too have culturally mixed.
They had adopted in the local culture very well and marriages have taken place with Hindus and they do celebrate their own festivals and pray, even though in a heavily Indianised manner.
I will agree, that besides the pockets where they were in a large population, they are rather an unknown entity.
Their decision to go to Israel hasn’t helped either.
And yes, their names do sound confusing, especially with Christian names, but then, even Christian names might come as a bit ‘strange’ to many Indians.
So, you are right when considering most Indians, though definitely not all….
But then, back to your main topic, the holocaust might be a name of a foreign toothpaste brand, in India, for all its terrible history, the way its taught here.
I think, even the word ‘holocaust’ was not there in my History textbook.
At least I don’t remember.
Just a small paragraph that seem to convey the whole diabolical event in a way that Hitler had managed to killed of a few million Jews, on his way to have tea…. as compared to the detail the events deserved….
Hope the new syllabus has a more detailed account.
P. S.:- I was talking with a cool head, though I agree, I was in a hurry. Well, have to get back to studying….. yawn! I hope all cool on the ‘hot-headed’ front.
And Sharell, you have a WONDERFULL ‘Reply’ thingy!
Abdullah has finally initiated his religious hatred here, I was half expecting this since I read his shocking ‘ india invaded Goa’ comment sometime ago. This is the very reason I direct muslims to a blog run by their coreligionists- faithfreedom.org.
Its a good idea to discourage any religious acrimony on this blog, hindu bashing will explode out of control…
Did he really say “India invaded Goa”?
LOL
That would be like Indians Invading British India and French Pondicherri!
abdullah, it appears, had conveniently developed a selective blindness on this specific rebuff,
.. or probably he took a fifth (right to remain silent, an american expression as you know Manny)
Yeah , HE SAID THAT..!!! And STILL BEILEVE IT..!!!
And he did have a very long discussion on that with me.He also says that His father is not Indian , even when he was born in GOA.
He says Goa was given to Portugal by GOD (omg ! ) and India invaded it in 1962 and Kicked the portuguese in just 3 hours..!! Alas God didnt interverne..
@ Manny:
No offense Manny, you might want to recheck your sources. Hitler was a right-wing fascist, not a lefty. He actually persecuted the left wing Marxists. Neither is Max Mueller, whose ideologies belong to the right wing political school of thought. The left wing ideals appeared long after Max Muller. The Economist is a centre-right periodical. Perhaps you should look up what the terms “left” and “right” wing mean, otherwise you’d end up sounding like a pseudo-intellectual who uses ‘big words’ to sound intelligent (without really understanding what they mean).
Who said Hitler was left wing. He is right wing fascist. The ones who quote Max Muller are not just Hitler, but today’s Left wing “Intellectuals” as you put it from West Bengal and New Delhi.
@folks
To stop this ‘Reductio Ad Hitlerum’, I would like to present you some funny stuff. Here I go:
“Cats That Look Like Hitler” : http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com
Prashanth,
Is there are word for “Reducto Ad Castism”?
If not, we really need one, Don’t you think? I usually don’t bring up Hitler until I hear the “Cast thing thrown at me by firangies”. They look at me..”Ah..a Hindooooo”… hey dude what is this caste thingi… and I go… “Yeah..WTF is this Hitler Thingi…The Slavery thingi.. The American Indian thingi… The Lynching thingi… The Jim crow thingi.. the Rwanda thingi..
Otherwise I don;t mention it at all.
You get my point?
Manny (Ratnam),
Well, I’m with you on this and you would get my 100% support for “Reductio Ad Castism”. These days, I tread carefully when someone wants to (or when I want to) talk to me, as it almost always starts with or ends with “Caste” stuff.
Yo Abdyllah, (Manny, Prashanth)
Yap no surprise, your response is on expected lines, profane and diversionary…now that you mentioned nithyananda (and his ‘progeny’), then Im sure it wouldnt be out of place to discuss mohammad and his progeny here. As succinctly put by amil imani (an Iranian muslim and a PhD) in his book on mohammad, the man who married a 6 yr old ayesha and slept with her (read raped!) when she was only nine and also among others who married his own daughter in law, this illustrious role model serves a proud justification to a lot of men marrying pre/early teen girls without any sense of guilt. The minimum marrying age for girls is not legally established in many muslim nations. Now chief. To be the progeny from consenting adults is more preferable to the one that is an out come from force, don’t you think? Iam just responding to your progeny angle u raked up.
Its hilarious, you talk of persecution but you ignore the killings of nonmuslims by muslims that happens even in 2010. To remind you, Mohammad also served an inspiration to the yesterdays Varanasi bombers, last months would be washington’s somali bomber, last May’s would be New York bomber, last year’s Forthood, Texas massacre etc etc. Still not sure who your coreligionists are?
@ TAMASHA
hahahahahahaha , everytime I type your name to address you , I rolls on the floor laughing !!!! . now I become serious..;)
I will reply to every single query of you , sensibly and patiently..
You wrote…
“Please translate for me as you reinvent the English language:
’2. Hinduism doesnt preaches non-violence essentially.
and:
“I do not prove your any point.”
What language are you attempting to speak?
Please explain for me the plight of the Tamils. The Tamils themselves repeatedly allege ‘genocide’.”
————————————————————————————-
“Hindusim doesnt preaches non-violence essentially “means Non-vilence is not inherent , indispensible , fundamental or basic in Hinduism.It is something which is practicised in peacefull condition but the idea of non-violence is not rigid in extra-normal condition like War , Foreign invasion or anything which threatens your personal , regional and antional security.
Hope you get it now !!!
I said ” I do not prove any of your point ” BECAUSE
YOU SAID ..
“You do prove my original point that ‘India is just as violent as the west’.”
What is wrong in saying that ?? was that too complex for you to understand ??
And TAMILS !!!! WOWWWWW!!!! You one again prove that Americans have worst genral knowledge..
I mean the plight of Tamils and Genocide has ntohing to do with India !!
That matter is a part of SHRILANKA and not part of History of India..!!
Oh sorry !!! For westerners whole of Indian subcontinent is INDIA and Pakistan , Nepal , Bhutan , Myamar and Shrilanka are state members of Republic of India …. oh my god !!!!
Aye khuda mujhko bata , Tu rehta kahan kya tera pata ??
Salam Valekum..!!
@ Tamasha
This time I wont laugh , Because I am serious now !!
you said ..
“Yes indeed you are the stereotypical boorish, ill mannered, ill spoken, rude, and partially educated Indian.”
————————————————————————————-
I am boorish ?? why ?? Did I say any abusive word towards you ? If yes then quote !!
I am ill mannered ?? why ? I didnt behave badly with you, didnt abuse you or anything like that.
I am illspoken ?? why ? Just because there are some grammatical , synatx or typo error in my writing ?? quote anything which I said is ILL.
I am rude ? Yes .. this is partially right .Even my freinds say so.But I didnt behaved rude with you.
I am partially educated Indian?? why ? But I have cleared all my semster exmas years before and also got the degree .. lol hahahaha..
Yeah I am Indian ..so you are partially right..
Buy why did you bring my nationality in this ..??
you could have said “You are partially educated guy” ok leave it ..
And then you said …
“Personally attacking me, Christians or Muslims does not prove your point. Meaningless counter accusations do not prove your point either.”
When did I attacked you personally?? I am not beeing defensive but I cant digest anything which is not true.If I am wrong , I will accept it.But I have not said anything to you personally so how can you blame me??
Infact you have abused me personally saying I am boorish , illmannered , illspoken , uneducated Indian …!!! didnt you say that ??
In this blog , many people cross the boundry of decency and civility more frequently than the frequency of electric current in Europe.And Sharell is a witness to the fact that I have never crossed the limit.
————————————————————————————-
To improve your communication skills you may wish to check out this website:http://ec.europa.eu/translation/writing/clear_writing/how_to_write_clearly_en.pdf
If you are really sensible and genuine in this advice then I will check it.
“I take my excellent grammar and composition from a 25 year career in professional writing and the book: “The Elements of Style”‘ by William Strunk, Jr.”
A simple case of self-obsession and self-appreciation.
Hahahah , Self-proclaimed genious !! In Hindii we say “APNE MUH MIYA MITHHO”
“I’m just trying to be helpful so that someone who is of such clearly superior intellect can be understood as such. ”
Did you just say anything good about me.Thanks
“We will keep this simple as you are prone to emotions clouding your rants.”
I clearly didnt understand what you meant by this.Do you mean to say that I am emotional ??
“Explain to me the plight of the Tamils, how is this not ‘ethnic violence’ or ‘genocide’?”
I have already explained about tamils ,That is Srilanka and not India so we Indians are now least worried about it.
“Feliz Navidad y prospero ano y felicidad!
(I’m fluent in Spanish also.)”
Gracias !!
Le deseo un muy próspero año nuevo y Eid.
I may not be very fluent in Spanish but know a bit Italian , Portuguese and Spanish.!!
I am also fluent in URDU(written , spoken) , Punjabi , Sanskrit , English and Hindi. My count is 5 . Yours is ONLY 2. Still I am the winner..
Sorry if I hurt you ..!!
@Mohit-
You wrote and I quote-
‘More suprising is the fact that you catually want to see intelligence in my writing when you have none of it in your brain. sorry I am rude..!!’
(AN OBVIOUS PERSONAL ATTACK)
‘When did I attacked you personally?? I am not beeing defensive but I cant digest anything which is not true.If I am wrong , I will accept it.But I have not said anything to you personally so how can you blame me??
You can not even remember what you wrote? By your own admission you are RUDE and seem to be proud of it. I am a citizen of India also. Stop making India look bad by behaving like an ASS! You are BEING THE UGLY INDIAN!
You wrote:
‘I am also fluent in URDU(written , spoken) , Punjabi , Sanskrit , English and Hindi. My count is 5 . Yours is ONLY 2. Still I am the winner..’
Sounds like you are quite the “APNE MUH MIYA MITHHO” yourself! And as you say yourself ‘A simple case of self-obsession and self-appreciation. ” What a HYPOCRITE.
I never claimed ‘genius’just excellent English skills. However I am fluent in Spanish, Dutch, German, Hebrew, Latin, and Greek. I’m passable in Cantonese, French, and Japanese. I do not hear much Hindi in Nepal, except when I watch old movies. You are definitely NOT fluent in English.
I asked for your OPINION on the Tamil situation and India’s presumed condonement of the atrocities. I did not give the Tamil situation as an example of ‘ethnic cleansing’.
However can you deny the situation of the 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits (an ethno-religious group) purged or expelled by Islamic terrorists and the Muslim majority (an ethno-religious group) from the Kashmir valley? The Kashmiri Pandits claim ‘ethnic cleansing’ and ‘genocide’ themselves: http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/refugees/index.html
Are they lying?
That ‘ahinsa or ahimsa’ is not as you say ‘preached’ in hinduism is not the point. That ahinsa or ahimsa is beautiful tenet and a belief held as truth by Hinduism is the point.
I’ll end with a favorite quote of mine:
No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgments are wrong. Only racists make them.
Elie Wiesel
Shalom!
You previous point was about EXISTENCE OF ETHNIC CLEANSING in India , WHICH WAS WRONG IS WRONG AND WILL WRONG FOR EVER.
@ Tamasha
“More suprising is the fact that you catually want to see intelligence in my writing when you have none of it in your brain. sorry I am rude..!!’
(AN OBVIOUS PERSONAL ATTACK)
OK sorry !from the bottom of my heart ..
———————————————————————————-
“You can not even remember what you wrote? By your own admission you are RUDE and seem to be proud of it. I am a citizen of India also. Stop making India look bad by behaving like an ASS! You are BEING THE UGLY INDIAN! ”
I have short term memory loss,a disease widely popular after the release of popular Bollywood movie “GHAJNI”. And I am just a victim of Amir Khan’s cinematic perfection. I got into the character and am still in it ..;)
Marrying an Indian doesn’t make you an Indian. Though I do not suspect your genuine love and respect for India. Just like a Cuban wont become an American if he/she benefits from comical rule of dry-foot wet foot.
I said , my friends say that I am rude. I didn’t say that I am rude, actually. Its just that sometimes my friends misunderstand me as you have.In really I am sweeter than honey.
Proud of being RUDE? Is not it something very strange to assume ? what is in it of being proud? I didn’t say it.Don’t put your words in my mouth.
What is “ASS” you are referring to ? Is it donkey ? or is it the slang MOST CIVILIZED people use? whatever it is ,but it definitely goes to the extent of abusing me personally in the worst possible form.
I cant express these type of appreciation for you because.
1. You are woman
2. You are very elder to me.
India is functioning because there are people like me. And you are telling the world that I am giving a bad name to India.Why ?? Just because I tried to clear some of your confusion on the History of India and Hinduism in best possible way.?? Or because your understanding of “Ethnic Cleansing” or Non-violence doesn’t match mine.
Yeah I may be UGLY by face , but my inner beauty is impossible to match,thats why I got the attention of many of Delhi’s pretty girls.
———————————————————————————-
“Sounds like you are quite the “APNE MUH MIYA MITHHO” yourself! And as you say yourself ‘A simple case of self-obsession and self-appreciation. ” What a HYPOCRITE.
I never claimed ‘genius’just excellent English skills. However I am fluent in Spanish, Dutch, German, Hebrew, Latin, and Greek. I’m passable in Cantonese, French, and Japanese. I do not hear much Hindi in Nepal, except when I watch old movies. You are definitely NOT fluent in English.”"
Hahahaha Darling ! , what has happened to your sense of Humor. I was just kidding about this language issue.You took it so seriously that you actually started counting the languages ,you know.OK YOU WIN
But one thing is sure that when I reaches you age after 60 years , my count will be higher than you. don’t mind.. lol.
And how can you judge fluency of language by reading.I thing fluency is something which can only be judged by listening or having verbal communication. You must be having some extraterrestrial powers.
Anyway , to much of your amusement , leave alone English ,I am not even fluent in my mother-tongue, because of already mentioned ST ML(Short Term memory loss).But blame it on Amir Khan .
But if you become my teacher ,then there is chance of my becoming excellent in English.Would you be ??
———————————————————————————-
“I asked for your OPINION on the Tamil situation and India’s presumed condonement of the atrocities. I did not give the Tamil situation as an example of ‘ethnic cleansing’.”
REALLY ????
You said “Explain to me the plight of the Tamils, how is this not ‘ethnic violence’ or ‘genocide’?”
Anyone don’t have to be a genius to comprehend that here you are simply presenting this “TAMIL-GENOCIDE” issue as an example or the reinforcement of your earlier statement regarding GENOCIDE ,ETHNICITY and INDIA.
You are simply back-tracking from this after knowing that you have made a mistake.No problem it happens with humans. But first step to correct your mistake is to accept it.God bless !!
———————————————————————————-
“However can you deny the situation of the 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits (an ethno-religious group) purged or expelled by Islamic terrorists and the Muslim majority (an ethno-religious group) from the Kashmir valley? The Kashmiri Pandits claim ‘ethnic cleansing’ and ‘genocide’ themselves:”
Why would I deny a fact for which I am working for?? Yes , Hindus are suffering in valleys. This is a fact , I have already stated. And as I have told you that in all the incidents of these nature , victims are Hindus. But use the plight of Kashmiri Pandit s to prove your point , because of two reasons.
1.Whole Kashmir is not controlled by India.
2. Islamic terrorists are Outsiders Paki Mujahideen and not Indians.
So here is involvement of two nationality and not two ethno-religious group.
———————————————————————————-
“That ahinsa or ahimsa is beautiful tenet and a belief held as truth by Hinduism is the point.”
No doubt about it .But you don’t seems to flow a bit while looking at the variety of abuses you hurled at me. Gandhian Non-Violence includes physical , verbal , mental or emotional violence to avoid.
———————————————————————————-
“No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgments are wrong. Only racists make them.”
Then why did you convert ?? Please follow your own quote and next time when you appreciate me with a newly invented word please don’t put the name of my country as suffix.
@MOHIT-
you wrote-
“More suprising is the fact that you catually want to see intelligence in my writing when you have none of it in your brain. sorry I am rude..!!’
See the ‘I am rude..!!
Then you write-
“I said , my friends say that I am rude. I didn’t say that I am rude, actually. Its just that sometimes my friends misunderstand me as you have.In really I am sweeter than honey.”
See the “I didn’t say that I am rude, actually.” part?
Yes you did say that YOU ARE RUDE.
ASS- term of contempt, referring to a silly or stupid person.
I think you are referring to the word ARSE.
If you insist on being RUDE then indeed you are a behaving like an ASS and are indeed boorish, ill spoken, partially educated, and stereotypically ill mannered Indian. Donkeys are usually better behaved.
ABUSE is the improper usage or treatment for a bad purpose. My purpose is neither improper nor bad. I only wish to prevent you making an ASS out of yourself.
You said-
“But one thing is sure that when I reaches you age after 60 years , my count will be higher than you. don’t mind.. lol.”
Really? And how old am I by your omniscient estimation? Once again ASSININE behavior. If you are suffering “Ghajini” memory loss how can you learn anything much less a language?
If you can’t understand what you write perhaps you ought not participate in a blog.
If you can’t understand what other write perhaps blogs aren’t for you also.
The Tamil question was originally posted on a previous …..oh NEVER MIND that’s right you told me you suffer “Ghajini” dementia.
I’m proofreading a paper written by a Kashmiri Pandit in exile.
She seems to have a different opinion than you.
1.Whole Kashmir is not controlled by India. (THAT’S OBVIOUS)
2. Islamic terrorists are Outsiders Paki Mujahideen and not Indians.
The terrorists in question were TRAINED in Pakistan. Apparently most of “Kashmiri Muslim separatists” involved in Jammu were indeed Indian citizens of Indian-administered Kashmir. At least according to the young lady’s documentation on her paper that I’m proofreading.
You Wrote-
“So here is involvement of two nationality and not two ethno-religious group.”
So were you there? The Kashmiri Pandit lady says she was. Do you know something she doesn’t?
You said-
“Then why did you convert ?? Please follow your own quote and next time when you appreciate me with a newly invented word please don’t put the name of my country as suffix.
Suffix-An affix added to the end of a word or stem, serving to form a new word or functioning as an inflectional ending, such as -ness in gentleness, -ing in walking, or -s in sits.
To ‘put the name’ of your country ‘as suffix’ is not possible. Please explain to my (APPARENTLY BY YOUR ASSININE ESTIMATION over 60 plus years) self what ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
My Kashmiri Muslim nephew is 26 years old, has an exaggerated opinion of himself (just like you), and insists on behaving just as badly as you. I really have to ask, DIDN’T YOUR PARENTS TEACH YOU ANY BETTER?
Why did I convert? What are you an Indian ‘aunty’ now too? See previous posts if you really want to know.
You wrote:
“Though I do not suspect your genuine love and respect for India.”
You know, I really do not genuinely love and respect the RUDE way I have seen Indians behave. Especially the way I’ve seen ‘educated’ and ‘professional’ Indians treat other Indians.
Sorry, I just do not understand it. Seems pointless and defeating.
Well ,if nothing else your English does seem to be improving. I do not think you would want me as your English teacher.
I’d see a doctor about your ‘Ghajini’ induced mental deficencies. Being a gynecologist, I’m not much help
@ Tamasha
Most of your reponses are the same old irrational , cribby , abusing and senseless and are not worth for a reply.
But to put some things in perspective and maintain my selfrespect I will have to say something..!!
“My Kashmiri Muslim nephew is 26 years old, has an exaggerated opinion of himself (just like you), and insists on behaving just as badly as you. I really have to ask, DIDN’T YOUR PARENTS TEACH YOU ANY BETTER?”
I dont posseses any of the quality , most of the Young muslims of Kashmir do. Because the environment , conditions , political and social situations in Kasmir are very different from what I have witnessed here.So my views on the whole issue are FAR FAR MORE balanced then an agitating and educated Kashmiri Muslim Youth.Because what they think of India is anything but positive.
I can be rude, boorish ,etc etc but I can never be someone , who can explode himself just because my religion tells me to do.Nor can I shout anti-India slogans on the slightest provocation.No , even I am not always satisfied with social and political injustice meted out to its citizens.But the Idea of killing innocent people doesnt inspire me much.
So , I better be anything or anyone than A KASHMIRI MULIM YOUTH.So dont do the non-existing comparison.
Second thing is that it should have been better if you wouldnt have brought my Parents into all this.As you know , most of Indians are very touchy and sensitive about their parents.And I treat them like GOD.Infact better than that.
But now as you have brought them anyway, then I would like to tell you that they taught me everyhthing , Best parents in the world do.
But above anything , I learned that never loose your self respect without disrespecting anyone.
Its because of culture and education given to me that STILL I Havent used any ABUSIVE WORD for you.I could have used MANY , if you was a man or someone younger.
Next time , dont bring my Family ,specially parents , into any discussion and/or in any form, which degrade them in direct/indirect way or YOU WILL REGRET IT.
@Mohit
I agree with some of your points and empathize with it, but in some cases, I find you immature for using words like ‘BEWARE’ and ‘YOU WILL REGRET IT’, which make you sound like a aggressive kid or someone who works for a Hindu right-wing group. You also sound like a hooligan by warning someone of serious stuff, on an internet forum. Being an Indian, I know that Indians are emotional…but hey, ‘Talk to your intellect, rather than to your emotions’..and be sensible!
Prashant , I really do connect well with some Hindu Right Wing Organisations on some issues. There is nothing insane about it.
Most probably , you havent met any so-called right wing persons, personally.Most of them are anything but aggressive kid.
And , “BEWARE” or “REGRET” has nothing to do with any kind of physical harm or something. It was meant to make her behave and stop saying abusing things to me or she will get the Best of ME.
I dont sound like a Hooligan. I am actaully a “Hooligan” for those who try to be oversmart.
There are many type of Indians but surely I am not of the type , who will remain silent when someone degrade my parents.In internet or real world.It doesnt matter.
I will talk with my intellect till someone talk with same, but when she/he strays from the path of dignity then I take the path of right-wing activists.
Be sensible !! ??? you are saying this to me ..??
I was always sensible.Try saying this to her !!! And she will call you illmannered , boorish , and partially educated ASS.
@Mohit
I dunno whether it is my place to say. I am just sharing what I beleive in. There is a saying ” you can never win any argument with idiot”. I truly beleive the truth in that after reading comments and “gems” from couple of debaters here. It is better to walk away from those than to give weightage. Thatz we usually make a mountain of a mole.
I dont think that anyone takes that woman with empty grey matter seriously other than yourself. Who mocks or pass ill comments about sensitive issues like genocide and holocaust?
And for “Ghazini” – every1 knows that it was remade from “Memento” to suit average indian brain in tamil first and then to hindi.
http://meandmythinkingcap.blogspot.com/2010/12/hollywood-vs-kollywood.html
Indians are emotional? I don’t know..some people I’ve met aren’t comfortable with emotion or expressing their feelings *cough* Manny *Cough*
Or, maybe it’s okay for THEM to show emotion but it’s not okay for someone else.
Interesting blog. You all folks are missing out certain things that are essential. India was not India few thousand years back. A huge landscape with enormous potential and life has attracted a mass of people to move to this landscape and make their living. And they built themselves very well. I have been continuously asked by many people all through my travelling about the caste system and practice in India. Well if you are living in south africa and if you had experienced the Apartheid then you would preferably say that the caste system is far better than the apartheid. Caste system was not based on skin color or due to acquire economic dominance. It was purely a system given to a society so that the society can function in harmony. In my observance, no dalit indian think that they were oppressed or being discriminated. I used to have friends from all castes. When I visit a dalits friend’s home, my friends mother feels that its fine with them if I dont eat at their place while they are eating. Because they understand that there are certain food practices that they follow may not make me feel comfortable. Neither I felt being rude or being impolite. Never my friend felt that I am treating him low. The only understanding is that they respect what I feel and vice versa. When I came to South africa, I felt only onething very odd. A black person, a white person and a mixed race (coloreds) do all consume alcohol, eat all kinds of flesh, and live the same way as others. Yet the apartheid system did not make a sense as caste system does. As a brahmin, one needs to adhere to certain life-styles which are quite harder for another caste person to practise unless he/she determines to do so. The differences that exist in caste system embeds these variations in life-styles. The recent changes that has occurred in the political aspects of caste system has made it look like a worse system. Indeed it was not. One should not forget that lot of brahmins are not financially dominant in India. And it is understandable that no upper caste groups ever tried to suppress dalits in order to accumulate more money as in the apratheid system, only whites could acquire more wealth than other race groups. For all your information, the white south africans do not like Indians as they struggled harder to attain financial dominance amidst all the oppressions that they went through. You will hardly see any upper caste indian feels agitated if a dalit excels and acquires rich. Lot of dalit scholars and successful people were given all encouragement by their upper caste teachers who still live with the minimum salary that is being paid by the government. I was one of them when I was in India. Caste violence that has erupted in parts of India are not due to the reason that the dalits are becoming economically stronger or intellectually challenging. It’s due to the reason, mainly, a dalit men and upper caste women and vice versa involved. Each caste person has a respect for another caste. And everyone knows their boundaries and when the boundaries are invaded or crossed, the problems begin. Thats how most of the caste violences occur.
As far as muslims are concerned, I do not like the ideologies of their religion. Moghul invasions have destroyed the knowledge base of india such as Nalanda university. And even now the most of the muslims in India do not have the tolerance to accept the other religious groups. Hindu philosophies always preached the tolerance. There is no hindu scripture, to my knowledge, suggests that a set of people are infidels if they do not practise like hindus. Hindu philosophies are deep and accomodating every thought process about everything. There was no religious invasions that happened in order to spread hindu principles to elsewhere like islam,christianity and etc. Hindu philosophies suggest that whatever you do, do it with duty-consciousness. In south africa white doctors do not treat the patients from other race groups equally. What a shame to the profession! You will hardly hear a brahmin doctor giving a bad treatment to an untouchable and vice versa. The duty-consciousness in the indians is due to the caste system. I wish this system should have existed in the whole world that the people would have been doing their job rather than worrying whom they are serving for and doing their job with prejudices. Even a dalit leader like Ambedkar did not agree with Gandhi yet he performed his duty to this best. Thats the best part of the caste system. So please stop talking about the caste system without understanding it properly.
Personally I am proud of part of a society where such an organised social system existed and exists. A brahmin takes a bath if he is touched by an untouchable. He just takes a bath by admitting that its his fault being touched by an untouchable and no one else’s. Hence he takes a bath to purify himself. When the white settles came to southern africa, they raped black women and you will see a huge population of mixed culture people (they are called coloreds). Such an outrageous activity didnt occur between upper caste and untouchables though there might be few exceptions. So the caste system is not of dominance or hierarchy. It was built on respect for each other based on what they are doing and how they are doing.
I am feeling sleepy. will write more of my ideas later..
It looks like you made an interesting time travel. Which era are you from? BC or AD?
Exactly. Thats why I find it amusing when white christians bring up the subject of the caste system. Thats like a mass murderer being outraged about someone else shoplifting.
LOL
@Manny and Achary-
In my experience the ‘Caste system’ has not led to ‘social harmony’. Granted most of my experience of the ‘Caste system’ has been in the primarily Hindu nation of Nepal. I have witnessed extreme violence and especially rapes due to Caste conflicts. If anything the ‘Caste system’ has encouraged the foment of Communist groups in the Dalit communities in India and Nepal. I am currently proofreading a paper for a university student in India stating ‘Social Justice’ as a tenet of Hindutva:
“The acceptance that Hindu social structure “is ridden with castes and communities”, and that this has led to “barriers and segregation” and condemnation of “obnoxious vice of social inequality” and “untouchability”. The supporters of Hindutva have a positive outlook towards the Dalit community, which they aim to bring to leadership positions in their organizations.
I really don’t see the ‘Caste system’ being any better or worse than social injustices suffered in the United States.
Jesus repeatedly preached forgiveness and nonviolence. His insistence for Christians to ‘turn the other cheek’, ‘let he who is without sin throw the first stone’ and “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly.”
Are some Christians hypocrites? Even Jesus said “why do you call me, “Lord, Lord” and not do what I say?” Lk. 6.46 Yes they are and always have been.
As far as Islam goes to quote my Muslim father-in-law: “One can not equate the Muslims with Islam.” I’m sticking with Sufiism, that’s about all the Islam I can handle.
DONA NOBIS PACEM!
Obviously !! You cant see caste system beeing any better or worse than social injustices sufferred in the USA because ,still you are unable to dicriminate between chalk and cheese or you dont want to.
Though I dont agree with all of ACHARY’s point. but one thing is for sure that there is definitely much much much lesser or even negliblible element of violence in Indian Caste system than it used to be in North America during the slavery period or till 1960s.
Original Caste System was not to DISCRIMINATE but INTEGRATE and SYNCHRONISATION of society for the wellbeeing of all. Yes , in the mean time , this system was spoiled and abused by some power-thirsty individuals and politicians.But still it does lesser harm than the LEGALISED DISCRIMATORY LAWS against blacks in USA.
Reported case of caste-related violence are mostly in very back-ward and rural areas and these incident can not be called systematic as the laws and procedure in USA were.
And who will define Victim? I am from the so called upper caste. But beeing from upper caste hasn’t brought any fortunes for me in life. Nor have I looked down on any Individual deciding by their caste.Infact I have seen many of my so called lowercaste friends beeing advanced thrugh one or more competetive exams even after getting lesser marks than me. No , I am not cribbing !! I understand and ready to sacrifice some of my “rights of equality” to minimize the apparent social unequality which spolied form of caste system has brought.
Uppar Caste is a luxury , you cant afford.!!!
Victims have changed their positions..But Its good to be noted that WE INDIANS are wroking together to bring the equality.And thats is something which put this whole issue of caste sytem MILES AWAY from the SYSTEMATIC and DICRIMINATAORY laws against blacks in US.
@Mohit-
You wrote-
“But Its good to be noted that WE INDIANS are wroking together to bring the equality.And thats is something which put this whole issue of caste sytem MILES AWAY from the SYSTEMATIC and DICRIMINATAORY laws against blacks in US.”
HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAVE YOU NOTICED THE CURRENT US PRESIDENT IS BLACK?
Read Surya’s post-
“We should totally ignore the Hindu caste system as lived in India today and, through example, show a better and more wholesome path for modern society.”
Note the ‘as lived in India today’ part.
Perhaps you might wish to ‘show a better and more wholesome path for modern society’ by observing some etiquette? Or do you still prefer to behave like an ASS?
Its been enough of you hurling abuse at me..!!!
In Indian our culture , its beeing said ..
“SATHE SATHYAM SAMACHARET ” in the call-centre language its something like TIT FOR TAT.
Lord Krishan in GITA has said that we are supposed to pardon three crimes of verbal abuse…but you have crossed that Limit ..
Now, if you , once more , abuse me saying an ASS or whatever , I will abuse you in most gruesome manner that either you will stop visiting this blog or go Hiding in Himalaya..
SHAME ON YOU ..!! you are telling me to show some ettiquette and in every post of yours you are abusing me like anything..!!!
YOU BEWARE … NEXT TIME .. !!!
@Mohit-
You wrote-
‘More suprising is the fact that you catually want to see intelligence in my writing when you have none of it in your brain. sorry I am rude..!!’
And-
’But one thing is sure that when I reaches you age after 60 years , my count will be higher than you. don’t mind.. ‘
And-
“any amount of Fact will not alter the mindest of people like you who have been brainwashed by the follower of Most-Peacefull Religion in the World.. ”
So YOU can ‘hurl abuses’ at me, mock me, and mock my religion, but I CAN NOT ask:
DIDN’T YOUR PARENTS TEACH YOU ANY MANNERS?
You wrote:
“Its because of culture and education given to me that STILL I Havent used any ABUSIVE WORD for you.I could have used MANY , if you was a man or someone younger.”
What a LIE.
And:
“TIT FOR TAT”
Do not dish it out if you can not take it.
Why don’t you take Prashanth’s advice and GROW UP!
“HAVE YOU NOTICED THE CURRENT US PRESIDENT IS BLACK?”
Have you also noticed that slavery still exists in ‘Deep South’?
@Prashanth-
You wrote-
“Have you also noticed that slavery still exists in ‘Deep South’?”
What an absurd statement. Please support that with evidence or retract it.
My father’s family lives in Louisiana, the ‘Deepest South’. As a teenager I lived in Louisiana for 5 years, and NO I HAVE NOT NOTICED SLAVERY EXISTS IN THE “DEEP SOUTH”.
Do not say it is because I’m white as my paternal grandmother is BLACK.
Slavery, Lynchings, Ethnic cleansing of American Indians are far far far far far worse than anything done due to the Caste system.
Its really simply..when you divide up the people into so many castes and subcastes, there is no single majority caste. the upper caste Brahmins are about 3% of the population. The backward castes are close to 50%. So its simply impossible for this 3% to physically harm the majority.
smoke that for a while.
@Manny-
You wrote-
‘Its really simply..when you divide up the people into so many castes and subcastes, there is no single majority caste. the upper caste Brahmins are about 3% of the population. The backward castes are close to 50%. So its simply impossible for this 3% to physically harm the majority.”
Sooooooooo who said the Brahmins are physically harming the majority? I doubt the Brahmins are physically harming the Dalits also.What about the other castes? And where are you getting these population percentages?
You’ve lied and said I post sites somehow linked to Pakistan before. OHHHHH MANNY WHY MUST YOU DEMEAN YOURSELF SO BY LYING?
No thanks, I don’t smoke and I don’t chew, and I don’t go with the boys that DO
Its the same moral relativism that you used to describe the antisemitic holocaust. like the Holocaust is nothing special…so many gypsies got killed too… so we are all same same in comitting horrors.
NO NO NO NO NO!
@Manny-
So you are saying that my relatives killed at Auschwitz were “gypsies” or are “nothing special”? Are Jewish lives any different in value than Dutch Mennonites’ lives?
Ponder this-
Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer: “The Old Testament describes the genocides of Amalekites and Midianites. As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited … encompasses the call for genocide in its canon.”
Such is the human condition. That’s all I’m saying.
Achary’s observations are pretty valid, although there are a lot of problems in the present caste system (Couple of hundreds of years back – Until now)….and these problems are probably because the caste system is pretty old and has transformed over hundreds of years, strategic undermining of Indians by colonial powers (using caste system), politics, etc. The best example for Achary’s post is the present chief minister of UP state – Mayawati (who’s a Dalit lady). Look at what she is doing…She has the power and is acting like one of those typical, stupid politicians…and spending a fortune, to create parks and statue’s, dedicated to herself. Did she learn anything from her background?..and is she trying to uplift those poor folks, in her state?..NO….Not Really!…This is also the best example to prove that foreigners were wrong in getting the hang of the ‘Caste System’. Anyways, I’m not a supporter of caste system…Maybe if I can design a ‘Back-To-The-Future’ car and time-travel to those old ages, I’ll think about that and consider supporting or not, but not now…and not anymore!
Prashanth-
Mayawati imbecility cant be linked to her caste. Jayalaitha when she was CM in Tamilnadu she did almost the same thing though she comes from uppercaste Brahmin caste. Don’t tell me that both are women. Lamer than dog ate my homework or Oprah and Ellen are twins bcoz both have 2 arms and 2 legs and 1 nose.
I felt Achary’s post to be pretty outdated. He really pulled a vanilla sky – not “Penelope Cruz/Cameron Diaz” vanilla sky but like Dr.Evil/Austin powers – waking up after being frozen for a century and talk about caste system today.
@Coolblogger
You are actually proving my point by saying that Jayalalitha did the same as Mayawati. So, this ‘Caste Card’ that many people play around here is not as bad as many people imagine, although there are certain regions in India, where people take it for granted. In my case, I was never got to know anything about caste related stuff, from my parents. I only got to know from some school mates who used to speculate about that….specially when the reservation for lower caste people was implemented, which made students from lower caste get into good universities, just by securing minimal percentage/grades. I thought that was ridiculous, but changed my opinion later, as I thought it gives that initial push for those people, to secure high-profile jobs…and eventually, it brings the change among their communities.
an ALLWHITE hindu monastery, himalayanacademy, based in Hawaii, USA has a very clear position on the caste system:
The Caste System Lesson 258 from Living with Siva
I am often asked about varna dharma–the social structure of four classes and hundreds of subgroups–commonly known as the caste system, established in India in ancient times. Is the caste system still valid today? Caste–or at least discrimination on the basis of caste–has been thrown out of the culture of India, but people still hang on to it as an ego structure. The high caste people love to hurt the low caste people, so to speak, by ignoring them, treating them roughly. That’s not the way it should be. In many areas of the world the caste system is distorted, and also very strong. If you find the high caste people in your society ignoring and not wanting to speak with and associate with the lower castes, those are nasty people, and those are people you should avoid. Spiritual people, even ordinary kindly people, would never think of behaving that way.
The original caste system was based on behavior, as it is now in countries where there is no overt caste system in effect. Those who beat their children, those who become angry and jealous, those who live in fear and those who feign humility are all of the lowest caste. Those who value memory and reason and use their willpower to benefit others–who control themselves and run an orderly home, support the temples and are respected by the lowest castes–are of the business caste. Those who protect the dharma and preserve the scriptures–who protect the temples and all the people, those who are respected by the other castes–are of the princely caste. Those who commune with the Gods and are priests in the temples–who are the disseminators of the highest knowledge and respected by all the other castes–are the priestly caste. These four groups make up a complete society anywhere in the world and at anytime in history.
The original caste system had these four divisions. The divisions were all based on the ability of the individual to manage his body, his mind and his emotions properly. If he stopped fulfilling the dharma of his caste, society would recognize that he had moved from one caste and was now in another. The original caste system was based on self-discipline through education and through personal sadhana. The original caste system was based on the unfoldment of the consciousness within each individual through the fourteen chakras.
People everywhere naturally divide themselves up into castes. We have the workers. You go to work, you work under somebody else–that happens all over the world–that’s the shudra caste. We have the merchants, who are self-motivated. That’s the vaishya caste. We have the politicians and the lawmakers and the law-enforcement people. That’s the kshatriya caste. And then you have the priests, the ministers, the missionaries. That’s the brahmin caste. Every society has these four castes working within it in one way or another. In today’s world, if one is not fulfilling the dharma of his born caste, then he changes castes. For instance, if a brahmin husband and wife are working eight to fifteen hours a day in a hospital under others, they are no longer of the brahmin caste, because they are not performing the duties of the dharma of that caste. They are workers, in the shudra caste.
We can see around us the deterioration of the system which has been abused beyond the point of recognition. Members of the brahmin caste are now beating their children, abusing their wives. Members of the kshatriya caste disrespect the laws of the land. Members of the business caste are deceptive and dishonest. All are confused, living in anger and in jealousy. No wonder their families break apart and their businesses fail. In the eyes of the Gods, most of those who adhere to the caste system that exists today are low caste. This is because they live in lower consciousness. They look at the world through the windows of the chakras below the muladhara. These undeveloped humans are struggling through the lower chakras, trying to get out of the dark worlds of the mind. Let us not be deluded about what the sapta rishis had in mind when they casted humans according to the soul’s unfoldment in one or more of the fourteen chakras. We should totally ignore the Hindu caste system as lived in India today and, through example, show a better and more wholesome path for modern society
I love this post! I am an Indian-American, I guess you would say, but I have just realized in a dramatic way how ingrained the self-hatred is in Indian, especially the “elite” class of “progressive” Indians. I unconsciously thought all things Western were good, and Indian were, so-so at best without realizing it, until my life was saved by Ayurveda (physically) when Western meds couldn’t do it, and by Hindu philosophy (emotionally and spiritually) when Western psychotherapy couldn’t… I’m not saying all things Western are bad, but there is a wealth of knowledge in Indian culture that we were taught by Maccaulay et. al. was inferior to anything the British taught us.
First Sharell let me congratulate on a excellent blog site. Its such a delight and honor to read your life in india through this site. Thanks for doing this since its helps us indians to learn more about ourselves and hopefully cleanse us of all prejudices and ugliness that clouds our minds.
I have pondered the source of this inferiority complex myself since I grew up in India,lived in the west for many years then moved back to india and spent half a decade in Mumbai and then moved back to united states.
In this globalized world i work with people in Europe, US, India and Thailand. To start with I have noticed and many of my american colleagues who have lived in singapore, thailand and other asian countries have confirmed that there is a general obsession with “whiteness” very wide spread through out asia. Many of my thai women colleagues openly comment and adore the white skin of my american female colleagues or the girlfirends of the male colleagues They consider it “pure” or “superior” and comment on how great their skin is and how “queen” like they look. In general thai culture is kind to polite to outsiders but with the adoration for whiteness comes a sort of psychological acceptance of its superiority and what follows is a sort of reverance and extra respect to the person of that race or color.
This is very fascinating to watch and sometimes I feel it (I am an indian myself) that people will act with particular deference to white people and in thailand. Now in a professional setting I get the same respect when I visit them from the US and they are nice to me but on the street I sense the same difference in how they treat me and my white colleagues. This is similar to what you mention in one of your other posts about you getting better treatment at times than your husband.
Now this is very fascinating for me because Thais don’t know me that well or have no reason to dislike me just like say other indians might (along the’ contempt by familiarity’ or ‘self-loathing’ reasons your mention above). I have also heard of situations wherein my thai or singapore colleagues are sometimes squemish to report to a Indian boss or non white boss (say pakistan or middle east) than report to a white boss. They don’t care even if the white boss is 22 yr old or totally inexperienced. They are impressed by just the fact that they are white and feel that their work experience is enriched and enchanced by associating with a white person.
Before witnessing this I had some theories about the causes of Indian inferiority similar to the comments above. I thought its something to do with colonialism orIndian caste system along the historic fact that India was ruled by foreign powers for over a 1000 years and manage to fractured indian society well by creating a elite layer that played upon these divisions of inferiority and superiority. Even without that the Indian society had the exploitative caste system that pitted one against other creating layers of superior and inferior.
All those reasons went for a toss when I first witnessed this thai behaviour towards whites. Thais were never colonized and in fact only country to never be colonized by east or west and remained fiercly independant. Where did they the get these racial prejudices I pondered ? I was hurt myself though it never happened to me. The Thais were extremely sweet to me and polite and overall I liked them.
But I have begun to formulate a theory in my head (I could be totally wrong about this) that there is definitely some form of racial hierarchy in this world and everybody in the world is subconsciously aware of this and it comes into play when they encounter a person of a different race. This racial hierarchy perhaps is something like this (again forgive me for this I am making this up based on my own observations or knowledge of history) : Top of the pyramid are Whites, Next are chinese race (to include japanese, koreans,etc), Next brown race (here i refer to Indians Latinos and perhaps other mixed races in India, brazil, SE asian countries ) and finally Blacks.
Now I Know I am overly crude and general here but this hierarchy aligns itself well to the way power and wealth is organized around the world. White nations are some of the richest and Black nations are the poorest. Now I have described this in a very ugly way and racism is not overtly practised anymore and honestly when I lived in india we don’t usually have race based experience within the society as much as we have caste based (which is a whole different topic) but somehow this race hierarchy seems to surface from subconscious mind when faced with racial situation. What I mean is that the collective experience of your entire race either historically, politically and economically surfaces subconciously tell you whether your race is above or below the race of the person you are talking to. Now in most white societies there has been complete transformation and reformation with certain amount of political correctness and equanimity in engagement with other races societies such as India have still not institutionalized or educated themselves in how their population engage with other races. As a result countries like India and Thailand use the prism of their own historic perception and their own cognitive perception of other races to engage with them. And this usually results in they placing themselves above or below the hierarchy I mentioned above.
This means the Indians develop inferiority complex when dealing with someone of a white race and that coupled with the caste or identity based existence that indian society has. Here I must mention that this fracturing of the indian self identity into various factions is partly through hindu social structure and but also largely through layers created muslim rulers and then later through the elite created mccaulayism to rule india. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaulayism) In fact the latter play a significant role in how Indians whose entire native systems have been subverted through imported systems of governance, administration and social obedience that till this day is seen both western and superior that they never fully own but at same time never measure upto.
Instead all things foreign is seen superior and locals incapable of formulating systems that works well. This inferiority complex is so deep that without knowing it consciously they swing wildly in between self-loathing and over-nationalism thwarting all efforts to criticize or recognize progress.
I concluded that a similar racial prism is being applied by thais and in their case they don’t have the colonial hangover so their response is far less detrimental to their own self-esteem but they too put themselves inferior to the white race but in a different fashion.
hi there..
well first off i love your blog..exspecially since we have more than one thing in common..
i am married to an indian as well..and we are about to move to hyderabad for 1 year with our daughter frieda ishani.
I often hear such comments too and they make me so sad..
eventhough in south india i never had the situation that the people address me instead of my hubby..but they ignore me..
like i am somethign unworthy to talk to..
theres one thing i would be interested in..have u told about your inlaws and their first reaction…i read about your mom and dads..but what about his parents..
in my story we had a small bollywoodlike drama..but now all sorted out
looking forward to read more
Hi Sharrell,
I have been reading your blog for some time and gave found it so valuable in offering me insight into what to expect with my upcoming move to India.
After reading this article from you about insecurities, I have to say that this mindset is not limited only to Indians, but also affects all cultures and races. I am an Asian-American married to an Italian, and I have had my fair share of stares and negative comments whilst in Italy visiting the in-laws. Not from my in-laws of course (they are absolutely lovely towards me), but other Italians who cannot wrap their heads around what my husband sees in me!
I do have a sense that I don’t belong and the long stares from total complete strangers (i.e. passerbys, waiters/waitresses, shop owners and etc.) reaffirms my feelings… Especially from Italian Women!!! And this was only Italy! When my husband and I went on a summer trip back to my homeland of Laos with my parents, the treatment we received was worst — my parents translated some of the whisperings and comments of hotel staff… They thought I was a prostitute!
So, in a nutshell, it doesn’t really matter where you go in the world there will always be ignorant and narrow-minded people who will try to impose their opinions and views about interracial marriages.
I continue to live my life with my soulmate and explore all of the rich cultures of the world… Our next stop is India, and we believe this opportunity to be an honour and a privelege.
I’ve learned to ignore it all and continue living my life with the love of my
Just one thing. The comments on the blog are too long. I can’t read them. You need to control the “longness” of it. What can I say I’m ADHD my attention span is 5 min. Some of these comments are longer than the actual posting.
Rupal ,
You must be belonging to some Elite class who always want rules to made according to them.What others think is non of your concern, right ?
Tomorrow , you can also say , while playing cricket , the boundry is way too long , make it short.Or this guy is bowling very fast , make him bowl slow. Or if you dont play cricket then ,while in plane , you can ask for a greater or lesser speed for the aircraft.
This is public forum for us , commentators and private property of Sharell.She authorise every comment to publish.If she is ok with it , then no individual has right to make or even suggest any constraint according to his/her taste.
This has become too long a comment to be read by you. Are you still awake ?
I dont know your personal experiences, but I think Indians are in fact aware that there are kinds of white people. In fact it makes me laugh when I hear the term “white people” or “Westerners”. What on earth is a Westerner? A Dutch person or Norwegian person is a Westerner, but I dont think Indians have an inferiority complex towards them. I can believe it if Indians feel inferior to Americans…its understandable and probably appropriate, because America IS a superpower. But I just find it hard to believe that any Indian would feel inferior to an Australian, when the average Indian military base probably has enough weapons to conquer Australia in about 15 minutes. What is more likely is that you could be identifying too much with Americans and the treatment they get and deserve as a superpower.
AB ,
Your name would have been completed if that was followed by “C” and “D”.That would completely describe a guy who is “Absolutely Bored of Constructive Discussion”(ABCD)
In fifteen minutes Indian PM can’t call his cabinet for meeting leave alone conquering Australia.
Sharell,
Absolutely loved this post, its so confusing to me as well! I am half white American and half Indian (I look fully white American) and am living in Bangalore with my Bengali boyfriend. I’ve spent most of my life traveling back and forth between India and the U.S. and share MANY of your experiences! I’ve read many books on Indian politics and economics, and just can’t understand why there are SO MANY books justifying India’s role as an economic power – THIS SEEMS OBVIOUS TO ME! Since India’s power and growth is so obvious, the way that so many authors feel the need to write lengthy justifications seems like another manifestation of this same inferiority complex. I can’t understand it – India and Indians should be so much more self assured and confident in the vibrant nation that India has always been, and the amazing changes that are still to come. Come on, India! Take Pride!
India’s liberal lefties love to self flagellate. They mock anything Indians do. They love India portrayed as slumdogs. Its their thing.
Recently Arundati Roy wrote an article in BBC titled ” India’s economic success a ‘lie’ ” Google for it.
This Biatch gets her panties in a wad when India does something good and heads in the positive direction. She like all other lefties of India are so perturbed that they have been proven wrong. Their socialistic ideology bankrupted the nation in 1992. India had to unshackle the Indians after that and the economy has recovered and heading in the right direction. All that was done was, the Govt removed themselves from the people and the people of India went on improving the economy. Now, this sorry lot is bitching and whining about why there are other poor people in India. They have nothing to contribute but stand on the sidelines and whine and whine and bitch some more. Thats the Left thing
The reason why Indians might feel ‘inferior’, is because the entire of human history is built upon racist lies and distortions of truth that place Europe as the centre. We are taught things that are not fact as fact. Cultures, ancient thoughts from all parts of the world are undermined as Europe essentially fed off of it for hundreds of years. Learning from it, and then claiming as it their own.
The reason why there might be an inferiority complex is because out of all the places in the world to have their ‘own truths’ be completely deconstructed by nonsensical rationalism based on Darwinian pseudoscience, India suffered the most.
That’s the reason behind it.
Thats exactly it Sharell. You see, Most reasonable and classy Indians would identify ourselves as Brown. No matter if we are from the north and very fair or from the south and very dark. Just like many African Americans would call themselves as Blacks. Imagine a black person identifying themselves as “light shade of black” (Other than in conversation specifically about skin tones). A African American who identify themselves as “light black” would be derided by most other Africans Americans. In India too most classy desis would not identify themselves as Blue Eyed or have a monicker “Lightskinned Indian”.
So whites folks self identifying themselves as white or blue eyed is just self descriptive. However, if a desi takes what a white persons self descriptive in the Indian context, that would sound pompous Indeed.
That’s why this desi person who self identified as “Blueyed Indian” is suspect. However, his/her reminder of the post confirmed it beyond a reasonable doubt for me. He/She trash! JMO. No wonder he/she got bullied in school
To tell you the truth, I am more tolerable towards unsophisticated persons who come from the village or poorer economic background who may not have had the opportunity to learn better social skills. But I tend to look down up on unsophisticated people who have had all the opportunity to be more classy yet remain trash in their hearts!
Sorry Sharell. I ekpt rambling and probably didn’t answer your Qs.
1) On “Beautiful Brown”. I don’t know if I can him “T$@#&” since he could be from the village or not even college educated. IF he is college educated then he definitely is one since he would have had plenty of opportunity to learn some basic social skills and have yet remained a peasant.
2) On the topic of some desis accusing of having “Superiority complex” because of your self title “White Indian housewife” (I know this bothers you a lot). You have been falsely accused of that sin. Like I had mentioned earlier, if these desis knew westerners they would have figured that these (Blond, Brunette, white etc) are common self descriptions and nothing more. But in India, referring to your “fair skin” as a moniker is not cool among classy desies. So their sin is one of applying the wrong cultural template on you. IMO, You are totally innocent in this matter. For whatever its worth!
Oh boy..I should proof read before I hit the post button! sigh!
Manny, please. You’re not reasonable and classy. You need a heart for that, and God didn’t give you one.
“No wonder he/she got bullied in school?” Would you stop the victim blaming? Such an attitude doesn’t do anything.
That’s it. I’m starting my blog for Indian abuse survivors, because we don’t need people like YOU lurking around.
When describing their skin tones, Black Americans refer to various shades of BROWN – not black.
Thank you for absolving me Manny!
What I was trying to mean was I’m not a foreigner, I’m a white Indian. 
It’s supposed to be a good thing, but you never know how minds work sometimes. Exactly, us westerners regularly use descriptions of our features to distinguish ourselves, because we come in a variety of colours/types.
Except for in the matrimonial columns!
I am blue!
I am a Na’avi now!
You are Indian, Sharell, a white Indian, but an Indian, nevertheless.
Oi!
Your reply thing is not working!
I thought I would be Blue!
I wanted it to be white like me!!!
No, seriously, something happened to it when I implemented the comment reply function. The blue went away. I don’t think it works with that function. 
You are the ONLY Na’avi around!
So obiviously you are The Toruk-Makto!
Where do you park the Toruk?
I was blue a few days ago, though!
Check the ‘Mother-Son’ blog.
I replied to your Newspaper joke.
Something weird is going on around here. Maybe I need to call in that pundit astrologer guy!!
http://www.whiteindianhousewife.com/2010/09/the-solution-to-all-my-problems/
Oooooooooooo!
Bhoot Blog!
Since you ask with your smug patronizing attiutude.
Here goes.
The American Christian caste system that ethnically cleansed American Arawak Indians. Including that bible thumping Andrew Jackson who resorted to the first biological warfare when a blanked with small pox virus was gifted the chief of the arawak that wiped out almost the entire arawaks.
The American Christian caste system that enslaved the Africans using the bible as justification.
The Lynching of “Christian untouchables” in the Bible belt
Even after 300 years of living together as christians, white christian caste and black christian caste hardly marry.
We all saw how the “Christian untouchables” were left to die during Katrina in New Orleans.
Separate churches for the white christian caste and black christian castes in the bible belt. When a black preacher starts preaching in a white church, its a matter of time before the white christian caste exits for the door.
2000 years of mental torture of a small tribe of people known as Jews. Even Shakespeare had his say on describe the “Shylock wanting his pound of flesh”. (BTW.. this was my first exposure to antisemitism).
Martin Luther the founder of the protestant movement rant about Jews in his book “On the Jews and their lies.” which culminated in the Holocaust killing 6 million Jews.
You know what, you are right. This is not the caste system. There is no christian caste system. The christian thing is a lot worse. Not in Hinduisms 4000 year history did its caste system ever go down this evil. Never! The caste system for the most part with some exceptions is a crime of giving slight or even being silly.
So before you tell us about “Evil caste system” take a look at your own backyard!
How do you like dem apples?
I find it amusing when American christian pontificate about the evil caste system, Pffft!
As far as “Do Presbyterians not marry Lutherans?” is concerned Do Vashnavaits not marry Shaivates?
Tamasha,
I apologize for calling you a rude arsehole. I should have stayed with just “Rude”. Tha Ahole thingi was uncalled for. Mea Culpa and sorry about that!
But as for the rest of the posts. I stand behind em
The source for most of what I have stated is from the book, “the Alternate History of the United States of America” by Howard Zinn.
Name calling Manny? Your inferiority complex is showing. Anyway I’ve been called worse by better than you. As far as Christianity goes there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Christian bible, Muslim Koran, or Jewish Torah that says slavery is wrong. In fact Jesus actually gives advice on how to treat your slaves. Does that mean slavery is not a SOCIAL EVIL? Are sati or honor killings silly or slight?
My father is from Louisiana, and he’s half black. Given the derelict and often nonexistent infrastructure in Louisiana I’m surprised the ‘Katrina’ situation wasn’t worse. It is interesting to note that the infamous ‘KKK’ originally set out to rid the US of ‘Catholics, Blacks, and Jews’. I’m not sure if they’ve changed their list since the 1930′s.
If there is any sort of ‘casteism’ in the US I’d say it’s economic. Race, skin color or religion doesn’t really matter anymore, money does. The type of healthcare you receive in the US, the type of legal treatment you may incur in the US, and any emergency aid you may receive are dependent on your economic status in the US. Ugly but true. I predict economics will overtake the caste system in India quite soon also.
I was reading an article in National Geographic the other day about genocide. There was a two page list ranking holocausts by the number of people estimated to have been killed. The atrocities of Stalin, Lenin, and Mao were ranked highest in deaths, the 6 million Jews were quite a bit lower on the list but amazingly nowhere was the annihilation of the estimated 13 to 20 million American Indians. I guess not all genocides are as relevant as others. I don’t believe in India’s history one ethnic group never tried to wipe out another ethnic group.
The US was once a British colony like India. Remember? Seems like everywhere those confounded English people go they mess everything up.
PFFFFFFFFT!!! Treat others like you would like to be treated. It’s good manners and good sense.
smugly and patronizingly yours,
The evil outcast that probably made herself more evil and more outcast by marrying a Muslim Indian.
You might try reading TWO books.
Being an outcast does not mean the outcast has to be evil or cannot do bigger and better things. That’s the point. You are just not part of that group. It’s neither positive nor negative.
The Brahmins are less than 3% of India’s population and the lower castes are somewhere close to 600 million. So who the heck is stopping these 600 million from doing bigger and better things?
Just cause the Dutch Amish people of western PA want to live by themselves and marry with their own kind, and would not marry black people or some yuppies of NY, doesn’t mean they are bad people. Brahmins are for the most part that way. And no, I am not a Brahmin and no I am not playing for “my team”. I am just saying the way things are.
Quit believing everything you hear from tv.
“I don’t believe in India’s history one ethnic group never tried to wipe out another ethnic group”
Do you have any evidence to prove it otherwise SHUT UP. Do not make up statements that pleases you. Even though you were physician but your ignorant of facts.
Manny thanks for facts
Manny, go back to watching ‘Borat’.
Tamasha,
You made the accusation that Hindus have a history of genocide. all I am asking you is to prove it.
Genocide and Holocaust etc are loaded words, A so called educated (Physician) from So Cal making such accusation cannot go unchallenged.
Jews have been targeted and Antisemitism at its worst by few groups.
1) The Arabs and Islamists. They teach their children to hate the Jews at every point in their lives.
2) Christian Evangelicals (and The Trojan horse “Jesus for Jews”) who follows that patron saint of anti semite Martin Luther and they would like nothing better than to convert all Jews to Jebus freaks so they can welcome the second coming. Preparation for the Rapture.
3) The Leftists of the world. For them Israel and Jews are the mass murderers and the Islamists are the victims.
4) The Self Flagellating Jews themselves. Chomsky et al who feel that the only way Jews can fee safe is by giving their neck to all the other tyrants of the world.
You know what. Hindus are the target of the 3 of those 4 people.
1) The Islamists who love to rewrite history and BS. Check many of the Paki websites about Hindu History..repeated here by the likes of Tamasha.
2) The Christian evangelicals and their lies about Hindu caste system so they can market their Jesus to all the “Persecuted people of India” ..persecuted by the evil Hindu Brahmins.
3) The anti Hindu Leftis of India (Arundati Roy et al) and their cohoots, the Lefties of the west.
4) The self flagellating Hindus in India The left Bengalies and Mallus.
As per this lot, Jews and Hindus are the evilest of the people…and Islamists, Christian evangelicals/Church and the Maoist and communists are the victims of these Jews and Hindus.
And one more thing.
Do you know that in India, they do not teach Indian school children about the Holocaust. That’s why many Indians are clueless about the Holocaust and Hitler for the most part.
The reason is, India’s far leftist government do not want to hurt the sentiments of the poor Muslims by making the Jews the victims of the world…. and neither does many of the Jesuit schools teach about the Holocaust cause they do not want desi kids to know the history of the church behind the antisemitism.. However, they do not have a problem of made up history like the Aryan Invasion BS theory.
@Manny-
Looking at my nephew’s history textbook in Kashmir, I have to agree what Indian schoolchildren are taught about western history and eastern/Indian history is slanted to say the least.
I am still wondering why the National Geographic’s Holocaust issue didn’t include the eradication of the American Indian. I thought the ‘National Geographic Society’ was very reputable. I wrote them a letter but have not gotten a response.
The term ‘ethnic cleansing’ really irks me. There isn’t anything ‘clean’ about it. Same with using the term ‘human trafficking’ for being sold into slavery.
I guess the Holocaust wouldn’t be taught in India because it isn’t a part of India’s history and isn’t very relevant to India either. Indians never had a cultural or religious connection with Jews as people. For them, getting a more general and inclusive idea of the horrors of the World Wars would be enough.
It is just like how people from Anglo-Saxon world never learn about the Armenian Genocides or the Ukrainian Holomodor. For them, these things never happened because in those times, Muslims and Jews were the ‘good guys’.
National Geographic is run or influenced heavily by by right wing American Christians. National Geographic subscribers are predominantly evangelicals all over the world including Africa. So is the History Channel on Cable in the US. So is the Family Channel in Cable, So is the National Geographic Channel.
Like a family who has had an incident of incest but refuse to talk about it so the family would not fall apart, India’s lefty secularists do not want to talk about the 600 years of violent Islamic history in India. However, like some family members would whisper one another about the incest and snicker, Indians do whisper to each other about the Islamic Iconoclasm and snicker…
But these things cannot be discussed in the “Secular” India. Neither can we discuss the Goa Inquisition by the Jesuits nor the Holocaust for we do not want to hurt the sentiments of the “minorities” of India!
The whole lefti history in India and in Indian schools are a farce.
I went to a good Catholic parochial school in India and I never knew about the Jews let alone the Holocaust until I was a sr in high school. My inkling to this was when I saw a Hollywood movie. Its funny because my father studied and was a professor at the Goetingen (spl?) University in Germany for 4 years and even he never told me anything about it. Its really strange.
“we do not want to hurt the sentiments of the “minorities” of India!”
But they never fail to attack the Hindus from time to time like their made up stories about caste system and others things….
@Tamasha
Most of these information you people read on the internet and come to know about in the media are biased.these people have their own agenda to spread such propaganda and many people think they know enough about India just by reading something on the internet.
Do you know, SRK and Rani Mukherjee of Bollywood once answered the question “Who is the person you admire the most” and these two answered “Hitler”. And no, these two are not bad people who enjoy ethnic cleansing. They are just clueless like many Indians who tend to associate Hitler with “discipline”. Since discipline is a trait Indians lack, its an admired quality in India and they look to Hitler for it? Sheesh!
The Secular left congressi govt did recognize Israel as a state until the 90s. Even Turkey recognized Israel in 48 when the state of Israel came to be. All because they didn’t want to upset the poor Muslims of India! Boo hoo hoo! Also the Catholic schools in India do not want Indians to know the Churches history of Antisemitism, so it is convenient for them to not teach it either.
And Yes..there are Jews (A small minority) in India. The Indian Jewish person I met in India was a gal by the name Ruth Benjamin..and I assumed she was a Catholic.
.
“Indians never had a cultural or religious connection with Jews as people.”
@Abdullah K.
Actually we do.jews were taking refuge in india because of christian persecution for thousands of years…adding to that hebrew is connected to indian languages there are also some theories that says jews came from india.
Damn!
I have missed this debate!
And can’t even continue it!
Mr. Abdullah K., please google:-
1.) Marathi Jews.
2.) Lost tribes, North-East India (something like that, you get the picture.)
3.) Jews in India, injustice.
4.) Bose and Hitler. (Well-known.)
I did not understand “Indians never had a cultural or religious connection with Jews as people.” We have had contact, though limited.
One of my best friends’s mother is a Jew (and most likely he is too, due to birth, though he technically follows both religions.)
Mrs. Tamasha!, guess what, have my OBGYN papers the next two days!
Hmmmm…. is this my shortest comment?
Sharell, reply thingy not working.
By injustice of Jews, I meant, reportedly, Jews have faced minimal or no religious persecution in India.
They have co-existed quite happily in India.
Were they not a microscopic community in the Indian populace, Jews wouldn’t have been spared religious persecution in India. They escaped what their peers underwent in Europe, mostly because of their cultural and religious obscurity. Otherwise, they’d have shared the fate of Christians and Muslims in India.
Here I have to disagrree with you Abdullah!
The only two groups who have an axe to grind are some Christians and Muslims in India.
There are many minority faithss in India. The Sikhs, the Jains, The Buddhists, the Zorastrians, the Parsies, and the Jews who have had no problems with Hindus for the most part. (No, the Sikh problem of 1984 doesn’t count. that was something the secular leftist Congressies who did that, not religious Hindus).
Christians and Muslims are evangelicals, they for the most part have a theological doctrine of “us and them” with their jealous god, this inevitably create problems. they have had problems even in Buddhist Sri Lanka and other Asian countries. Moreover, I am not even sure if you can call these two groups as minorities..these two groups are the Goliath religions of the world. These two have a larger brother hood with the Church from abroad and have monetary and other “Ummah” help (The Vatican for e,g,)
@Abdullah
I’m curious/interested to know your idea of “Religious Persecution” and the “fate of Christians and Muslims”. Can you please explain that and come forward with some sources of information, related to that?
Mr. Abdullah K., I rather believe that besides their relative ‘obscurity,’ another main reason would be that the Jews, unlike the Muslims and the Christians, did not seek to prosetylise, by force, the locals.
And the fact that they adapted well INTO the local culture and yet keep their separate identity, though heavily Indianised.
And, like Prashant, I am curious to learn of “Religious Persecution” of the Muslims by the Hindus (as compared to that of the Hindus by the Muslims) and the “Fate of Christians and Muslims” in India.
In a way, though, the Jews did face a similar ‘fate’ as the Christians and Hindus, when you consider their respective populations!
While the Muslims and Christians got to rule the entire country, the Jews got to ‘rule’ a small principality.
India’s unifying culture is called “Dharma”.
“You could call him Allah, Bhagwan, Christ, Buddha, or an infinite forms of invincibly Omnipotent goodness… ”
This is the Dharmic Mantra every Indian child is taught from childhood. Unity in diversity in Indian culture. Its condiered Dharmic.
There are some people from two groups with their Jealous god cannot accept this Dharmic culture of India. The evangelical Christians with their bigoted Nicene Creed, who would not accept anything but “Jesus is the only Lord and savior” and some Islamists with their “Ummah” and Kufirs. These two subgroups are adharmic and do not fit into the Indian culture. These two are the only ones who fight this Dharmic culture of India and have consistently had problems licing in India.
I think you should refrain from calling people trash. That’s just verbally abusive.
@surya:
No, not hatred. Just a justification of why the Holocaust isn’t such a big deal in India. I guess you need to stop dramatising things, this is an online conversation, not a religious riot.
Faith Freedom is a blog run by an ex-Muslim atheist, educating people about the dangers of Islam. Ali Sina is as much a Muslim “co-religionist” as you are the progeny of Swami Nityanand’s exploits. Just spare a few minutes reading the site, to see what it is about.
“These two are the only ones who fight this Dharmic culture of India and have consistently had problems licing in India.”
I get lice everytime I go also.
You have no idea Jayesh. Jews, once they gain an upper hand, tend to subvert the host culture with their own. The best example of this would be United States which, although a majorly Protestant country, lives on Jewish values. Most American males wear the emblem of Judaism (or Islam) on the part they treasure the most – their genitals. For most Jews, people like you would be nothing more than a gullible goyim (just like to Muslims, you are a gullible kaffir).
@Abdullah-
NOW you did it.
Let’s just wait & see how long it takes for Manny to start calling you antisemitic & therefore anti-Hindu & therefore worse than Satan.
I won’t disappoint Tamsha!
Jews may think they are the chosen people. pretty people may think they are pretty and smart people may think they are smart..dumb people may believe they too are smart. Brahmins may believe they are the best of the best. Muslims may believe their god is the only true god. The Christians may believe their god is the only true good.
Every one of us entitled to believe whatever… its a fundamental right to belief.
But the question is, do they use that to exert dominion over others? Jews do not have a history of using their sense of “superiority or chosen people” to exert dominion over others.
The only three groups who have done that consistently are Christians (Evangelicals), Islamists and communists for the most part.
Well Manny-
In response to your statement-
‘But the question is, do they use that to exert dominion over others? Jews do not have a history of using their sense of “superiority or chosen people” to exert dominion over others.’
Hmmmmmmm Palestinians seem to think so.
Abdullah K has a theory about that too=
‘Jews, once they gain an upper hand, tend to subvert the host culture with their own.’
‘For most Jews, people like you would be nothing more than a gullible goyim (just like to Muslims, you are a gullible kaffir).’
What’s the matter Manny, too chicken to respond to Abdullah?
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