A momentous event, with a huge build-up, took place in Delhi on Sunday. Besharmi Morcha, the Indian version of the world famous SlutWalk. I must admit that when I first heard of the event, I wondered what the heck it could be. SlutWalk. What an awful name. It conjured up all kinds of possibilities.
What SlutWalk actually is, is a walk to protest against sexual harassment of women based on how they dress. It originated in Toronto, Canada, after a policeman stated that to remain safe, “Women should avoid dressing like sluts”.
India has had its own version of that comment. I’m referring to the infamous incident in Uttar Pradesh when girls were banned from wearing jeans to college to control eve-teasing.
But back to the SlutWalk in Delhi, I had grave misgivings about what could happen if Indian women followed the lead of women elsewhere in the world and walked dressed in revealing clothing. What kind of message would it give out? And could the men attending the event be trusted to behave?
I needn’t have worried though, the tamed-down name of the event (Beshami Morcha equates to Shameless Rally) set the tone for the proceedings. Unlike SlutWalks in other countries, there was nary a skimpily dressed Indian woman in sight. Instead, kurtis and salwaar kameeze were common attire. Volunteers explained that the idea was to “shift the focus from clothes to the cause”.
That’s not to say that the event was devoid of “sluts”. The foreigner participants dressed in their usual revealing style. And the Indian media capitalised on this by showing them as the most publicised images, with traditionally dressed Indian woman walking sedately behind.
My friend Barns wrote an article about it: Indians, Foreigners And The SlutWalk Legacy. He ponders the question, “Did brazen foreigners and reserved Indians ruin Delhi’s Besharmi Morcha?” Not just that but did foreigners actually do a disservice to themselves and the event by dressing the way they did? He states:
It’s quite possible, then, that Besharmi Morcha – with its thinly dressed foreign women and their graffitied stomachs on display – has done less to combat sexual harassment of Indian women than it has to promote the notion of foreign women being ready for action anytime, anywhere and with anyone.
A Beshamri Morcha is being planned for Mumbai. I wonder what will transpire in this more cosmopolitan city where revealing dress is more common and accepted?
Photo: Hindustan Times.
© 2011, Diary of a White Indian Housewife. All rights reserved. Do not copy and reproduce text or images without permission.
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{ 321 comments… read them below or add one }
The woman on the right in the yellow kameeze and jeans would be the slut, because afterall….”India has had its own version of that comment. I’m referring to the infamous incident in Uttar Pradesh when girls were banned from wearing jeans to college to control eve-teasing.”
LOL! And the people behind her in jeans and skirts that show their ankles/calves. Chee Chee! Tsk Tsk! Shame! Shame! Besharam! Besharam!
Hence, “besharmi morcha”.
Yawn.
I’m waiting for the day India will return to its real “traditional dress”.
And where are these “thinly dressed foreign women leading the way” at New Delhi’s Besharmi Morcha? I’m searching the internet for photos and the few foreign women I see are modestly dressed.
India. We are like that only.
Here, here: http://www.gulte.com/index.php?andhra-political-news=delhi-slutwalk-photos-exclusive&page=news_updates&link=10627&pageno=2
She is both thin and thinly dressed!
What a shame, Indian ladies, you can’t even be ‘proper sluts’.
Hello Wikiteeth uncle,
I have seen Indian womans dreesing like the circus clown also. DO not be mistaking that only western womans do this. I have seen all angles of the compass and I know. You see I see we all can see you know. I also have seen size zero womans in western and eastern placings, in fact I am a Mr. man who is size zero except I do not wear a dress – that is che che for Mr. mans to do. I have 23.5 inch waist and 42 inch chest, yet you do not see me walking like a Mr. Man slut do you?
Ok lesson of the story is to eat healthy, yet do not become fat, and also to study, because brain burns 1/3 energy of human, and so if you study hard you will automatically lose weight. Are you trying to become thin wikiteeth uncle? Do not become skeletal, but be toned ok!
Haha! But poor Wikitheeks, what a disappointment hey.
Actually, when I was in India, I just could not keep my eyes off beautiful, young saree-clad Indian women. Jeez, women look so sexy in sarees. My yank Gori ex, wore a saree and I was totally bowled over !!! I told her I never realized that a woman’s belly button could appear so sensual when dressed in a saree.
Is admiring a woman’s beauty dressed in a beautiful silk saree , sexist ?
Sharell ,
Thanks for providing support to my own observation , which I mentioned in another comment in another , that there was rarely any “Besharam” in the ‘Besharmi Morcha”.
After hearing about the logical advice of that police officer in Canada , I realized that be it India or Western world , one of the solutions proposed to curb eve-teasing and exploitation of woman would invariably include advising women to “Dress-Properly”.
I think “SLUT-WALK” all over the world is , as Amit pointed out , a “HIGHLY EMOTIONAL REACTION” to the remark of Canadian police officer.He is being vilified all over the world as if HE support “crime-against-women” but in fact he was just advising , as part of his duty , on how to be safe in a world which is incredibly hostile to single girl and women.
In India , this problem has long been ignored as something related to “Crime” but I seriously think that it is a social problem.And solution of this problem is also hidden there in the old “Social Morals” of India which we have forgotten.
“”मातृवत परदारेषु , परद्रव्येषु लोष्टवत ,
आत्मवत सर्वभूतेषु , यः पश्यति सः पंडित ”
Means “who see other women as his mother , other’ money as scrap , consider others as himself , he is real pundit or a learned man.”
If all guys start thinking on these lines , most of the problem will be solved.But this is a very idealistic scenario where all people are living their life with prosperity.
Here is my practical solution.Most girls have brothers and Most guys have sisters back home.SO whenever a guy see a girl , he should think SHE is also sister of someone and if he misbehaves with her , it could happen to his sister also.
Also all girls should convince their brothers that because of their behavior towards other girls , they could also become victim one day , so they should start behaving.If we could say “Charity Starts at Home” why “Morality” can’t start at Home ?
What you say guys and girls ?
I say phew, I’m glad I’m back in Mohit’s good books!
And yes, all you lustful men, tumhare ghar pe maa behen nahin hai, kyaa?.
They do this to their maa and behen too, didn’t you know? Indian Oedipal Complex? Read Freud.
Barns has put it logically. The slut-walk would rather reenforce the idea of ‘Western/white women being sluts’, much more than it would help Indian women in their real cause. i.e, to combat the sexual harassment.
Men need to be educated from a young age to be respectful. Once they’re grown up, it’s too late!
Here’s another great post that Barnaby wrote that prompted quite a debate — of course attracting comments by Indian men that it’s not really an issue.
http://www.the-nri.com/index.php/2011/06/eve-teasers-harassing-women-india/
Define “Dress-Properly”
Sonu ,
Ask that Canadian Police officers.
Hello Mohit Gupta,
I finally came to that exchange about the Delhi Slutwalk, and didn’t plan to let some comment (enough for today, that’s what I thought !), but I read everything about the “unless they are willing to walk nude”‘, as you will remember – you were right !
But what I would like to tell you is that I really appreciate a lot your comment above (“Most girls have brothers and Most guys have sisters back home.SO whenever a guy see a girl , he should think SHE is also sister of someone and if he misbehaves with her , it could happen to his sister also.”).
I have always wondered how boys or men could forget such things, even in close relation with a woman : that these women could be their sisters.
This not only matters in the streets, in cities, on the outside, with people you just don’t know, men you pass by… it is often very true between men and women, as I experimented it when I was younger. And I am talking here about men who live in my own country. As well as what I hear that happens in other countries, all around the word. With women being stoned to death, in the very extreme acts.
All these words to say : that is something I’ve never heard a man talking about, and I don’t need to ask your wife, your mother, your sisters, nor your female clients ! That’s a very respectful position, and I keep it in mind (never will accuse you anymore
)
I didn’t really understood what you said actually (My fault ) but would like to say -THANK YOU
I was in Paris in February. What’s up with those guys coming to us with a question”Do you speak English” and giving us a Pamphlet if the answer is YES. It was mostly at tourist spots.
Most likely they are beggars from Eastern Europe.
Mohit Gupta, I don’t know who you are, but you are one of the reasons that I fight so hard for Women’s rights. And you certainly fit the stereotype of a chauvinist (Indian) man!
All I have to say is, when are men going to have to pay for the way they treat women?i am so tired of hearing that “IT’S THE WAY WOMEN DRESS!!” The men need to be accountable for their actions.
I hear all the time, that “prevention is better than a cure.” It’s such a load of crap. If you look at rape in general, rape is about POWER over women, and it doesn’t matter how a woman is dressed, because it has nothing to do with sex. Now does that mean I go around with my ass hanging out of my shorts, or my breasts hanging out of my top. NO! And I wouldn’t let my daughter dress like that either. But do I think that a pair capris that go down to my calves and a loose t-shirt allows anyone to grab my ass, tits, or any other part of my body…HELL NO!
Keep your hands to yourself. I don’t even care if you look, just do it subtly, don’t stare at me like you’ve never seen ankles before! Geesh!
A friend of mine was walking down the street in Hyderabad, wearing long pants and a t-shirt, and looked modest, and she was carrying grocery bags in each hand. An Indian man came up behind her and cupped her breasts. Now Mohit you’re probably thinking with your small little brain, that her t-shirt was too tight, or perhaps she was showing her ankles. But what about the guy? When will he be held accountable!?
This stuff just makes me sick. And Sharell, the picture you showed of the girl with the black pants and tank top rolled up, did not look like a slut, as I see many Indian women wearing skirts and short tops showing their navels at wedding functions. So I mean come on, I thought I was going to see some really slutty outfits.
I am just proud that Indian women are out there standing up for what they believe in. If it means that a woman can wear jeans comfortably down the street without having their ass grabbed, then more power to them. You don’t have to wear mini-skirts and tank tops in this country to be considered a slut…tight jeans will do the trick. I really hope that changes for women in this country.
Shelly ,
The only advice to you from my side is !
READ AGAIN ! READ AGAIN ! READ AGAIN !
I am so damn lazy I can’t really explain or defend my Characterization as a “Liberal-Minded-Law-Abiding-Women-Respecting-Wife-Lover-Logical-Thinker-or may be Next-Prime-Minister-of-India”
One more suggestion for you.
TALK TO MY WIFE ! TALK TO MY MOTHER ! TALK TO MY SISTERS ! TALK TO MY FEMALE-COLLEAGUES , TALK TO MY FEMALE-CLINETS, TALK TO MY FEMALE-VENDORS, TALK TO MY FEMALE-FRIENDS..
Or Even better ..
READ MY ALL POSTS ! Dear Sister !
The way women dress does have an effect on instigating crimes against them.Tell me why do women dress up scantily? Obviously to garner attention and unwarranted attention leads to safety issues.Yes,I agree that men need to be accountable for their actions! But do you seriously believe that you could educate an intellectually challenged criminal about women’s rights and men’s accountability.
The best you could do is to take precautions in avoiding unwanted attention.
And what about this statement from you ”Rape is not sex but about power”.Even to the indiscernible eye ,rape stands as sex
emanating primarily from lust.Though in lesser cases it might arise in situations of forcing power upon the weaker sex.
It is similar to a situation of preventing burglaries at one’s homes.You can either lock your home to try preventing it or we can start a ###WALK to highlight our rights in leaving our homes unlocked and to teach the thieves of their accountability.
The Toronto police officer is justified!The slutwalk would have been justified had it stood for highlighting other sensitive issues concerning women.
Vikas, I’ve been all over India and not once seen a woman “scantily” dressed anyway, not even in Mumbai. So what do you mean by that?
”Scantily” dressed is a relatively perspective opinion.If you say that you haven’t seen them even in Mumbai then I guess it in your opinion it starts with the bikini.
Wikitheeks,
Being a nude beach addict in California, I think we should team up and open up nude beaches in Bombay, Kerala, Goa, Pondicherry, etc. Wonder if the hindu taliban , the muslim mullahs , the goody, goody, conservative christians of india would freak out and start whole-scale riots !
That sound slike a lot of fun!!
Leave aside “Hindu-Taliban” , ” Muslim-Mullah” , “Conservative-Christian” because both of you and your nudist-partner wikitheeks would be chased by ‘common’ men of India.It seems that somedy is having an issue will all Indians living in India.
Ahh, Sharrell…I just read Mohit’s response a little better… I think I might have over reacted and mis-read his response. Sorry Mohit.
But the sentiment stays the same.
Mohit has been shouted at a lot lately, he’s probably getting used to it.
Yeah , Yeah !
And at home too
People only talk about women rights, Nobody talk about Men’s right.Bohoooooooohoooooo
LOL @ Mohit, “After hearing about the logical advice of that police officer in Canada , I realized that be it India or Western world , one of the solutions proposed to curb eve-teasing and exploitation of woman would invariably include advising women to “Dress-Properly”.
I did an experiment on that one week and actually got eve-teased MORE when I looked like a behenji.
Also the humor of “slut” and “besharmi” has went straight over your head (the big one and small one both), which amuses me because bhaiyas usually have good sense of humor.
Clothing does not affect eve-teasing in India and you know that, bhaiyaji. Women in India dress very conservatively as a general rule and eve teasing is rampant there. In fact, in my experience it was more rampant in the interiors than in Mumbai or Bangalore where Indian women dress slightly less conservatively, but still modestly.
Besharmi morcha is a blip in the PR exercise to create awareness. But the real issue is that most men know eve teasing is bad.
Eve teasing can vary from staring, following, waiting for someone to walk past and then passing lewd comments and touching/ groping.
The point is we have another BIG perception forming communication going on for years in the Indian culture -
- that would be movie which glorify eve teasing and most of the flings between hero and heroine starts with the event of teasing, where the man puts the seemingly modern brat in her place.
- Good guys don’t get girls, not despite being friends for ages. Its always bad guy who comes in like a whirlwind and sweeps off her feet.
The fact is -
1) As a kid bodyguard for Didhis in the neighborhood, I have seem them enjoying the attention they were getting when military jawans followed them. That girly whispers and giggles, does it not reinforce that eve teasing is the right courtship technique for Indian culture!
2) Indian movies have been creating and reinforcing this image of eve teasing for years. I think they are one of the main culprits in propagating this belief.
3) There is no gender sensitization in the Indian culture. Even in engineering college, you would see eventually two groups – guys who befriend and move close with girls and others who make fun of them and consider themselves real men.
4) There is no mingling of the genders either, and women also have not created right direction for courtship instead of eve teasing becoming the courtship in the Indian culture. Their isolation is also one major reason.
5) You have to look at the overall culture and societal control which enforces a gender apartheid and dictates the terms of them coming together.
Of course there are always exception.
Veeeeh, do you think introducing and normalizing dating across all of India would help? Creating oppurtunities for teenaged boys and girls to mingle like school dances and such? Maybe even school classes about how to interact with one another and how to attract and keep a girlfriend?
A lot of women have the impression that if it weren’t for arranged marriage, most Indian men wouldn’t have a clue about what it takes to get a woman on his own merit.
The arranged marriage has been a big culprit in how the gender sensitization works in the Indian society.
The other Asian countries had the same kind of gender equations like China, Japan as they also had arranged marriages. Mao abolished the practice of Arranged marriage and it died natural death in the Japan. And you can see the transformation, where men needed to find his own woman, he did become gender sensitized.
But I don’t see things really changing in the Indian context, as its a place where they have a culture of societal control to keep culture and rituals alive.
Its both boon and bane , depending on the context. I have mentioned before as well that we are keeping lots of cultural traditions alive despite them being past their expiry date. We have some temple rituals which are as old as when human language was still evolving. I have seen documentary where Priests use language which seems to have been rendition of birds talking in their temple rituals in Kerala. This must be thousands of years old and also gives insight into one stage of language evolution.
The point that I am making is that its hard to break the yoke of traditions in the Indian culture.
The suggestions that you mentioned are more of the western approach to the gender sensitization. We need to evolve something that works in the Indian cultural context.
But one reason for intense sexual objectification of women in Indian culture is the cultural apartheid of genders. Once they see them as humans, things will change.
I would definitely argue to bring down the institution of the arranged marriage, as it will solve issues related to gender apartheid and also casteism.
The fall of arranged marriage was the main reason why caste system’s spine was broken in the countries like Japan.
Its only in the caste system that one qualifies on the basis of the caste, gotra, religion etc for unison of man and a woman.
Maybe they can do something like betrothal, where the marriage is arranged between a boy and girl at a young age and when they reach their mid teens they can start dating each other, and then when they reach adulthood they can get married.
To have a bunch of horny teenage guys and guys in their 20s when their sex drive is the highest it will ever be in their life but being forced to be celibate and virgin against their will is a disaster. Obviously choking the chicken is not enough to satisfy these guys.
Better to arrange their marraige to a particular girl, then have them court and date her through the teen years and then marry by 21.
This practice exists in India, child marriages still happen. And the ill effects of this tradition are well known.
this is even worse than arranged marriage of grown ups.
What happens if the boy dies early – child widow
what happens if woman turns out to be taller than man – you can imagine the awkwardness of that woman, and the inferiority complex of the man in the Indian context.
I don’t mean arranged child marriage as such, more like betrothal. The two are paired at say 12 and 14. Then at 14 and 16 they start dating and continue to date until they marry in adulthood. If one of them dies then the other just gets a new betrothal. If one ends up taller or somehow things don’t work out, they can cancel the betrothal and get betrothed to someone else.
There has to be some way to keep these eve teasers off the street and occupied. I think a little bit of romance in their lives would go a long way. They are clearly jonesing for female attention and company, so why not let them have it, but in a way that will eventually result in marriage?
But this is again arranged, and you are locking a man with a woman, when he clearly lacks decision making ability.
This is not a gender sensitization process as well, as the man and woman don’t get chance to know each other as human beings and grow to find the right mate for the rest of their lives.
I intend to oppose any “arranged” experiment of putting man and woman together and hope that they would grow to be perfect mates as they grow up.
The point is “man” and”woman” should be able to make their decision on living with a mate after engaging other in courtship, learn and evolve in that process.
Its high time Indian “men” and “women” are seen as grown ups and not requiring help of parents to find a girl for them. This is an Un natural process as well.
Why intervention in needed in something as primal as courtship and interaction between man and woman?
My mother in law turned out to be taller than my father in law (they got married very young), that’s why my husband doesn’t care that I’m taller than him. He’s grown up with it that way!
Bless your MIL’s heart. She is a smart woman it looks like.
Some Desis women would get so pi$$ed that desi men are looking for fair sklnned women…while they are busy looking for tall men.
What is the difference? Nothing! No difference.,.. But desi women will bitch and moan about the bigotry and racisim of deises because they are looking towards “fair skinned” but they are cluless that they are unashamedly have no problem with being bigots looking for “tall” or “taller” men.
“The fall of arranged marriage was the main reason why caste system’s spine was broken in the countries like Japan. ”
WOW! What wisdom. Do you have any wise words on breaking the Christian caste system in the US? Even after living together for 300 years. Blacks and whites hardly marry one another. Non arranged marriages does not seem to have cured them.
Maybe, just maybe, some arranged marriages may solve that problem?
Oh Lord!
LOL
Or better yet, export the congress liberal social engineering program of paying for inter caste marriage couples in India over to the US. (I am not kidding folks, In India tax payers money is paid out to inter caste marriage couples).
President Obama can announce a new program. If the whites and blacks marry bringing “Harmony” like its doing in India, we’ll pay tax payers money of $50,000!
That should work here in the US.
Hey Manny
As I told earlier, I would not get into your game, nor will emotionally respond to your supposedly “Christian and Distorted Left bashing”
US does not concern to me, India does.
Veeeeeh ,
“There is no gender sensitization in the Indian culture. Even in engineering college, you would see eventually two groups – guys who befriend and move close with girls and others who make fun of them and consider themselves real men.”
Only two groups ! Are you sure ?
In my college there were ten groups.I hope you understand why I said that.
———————————————————————————
“Indian movies have been creating and reinforcing this image of eve teasing for years. I think they are one of the main culprits in propagating this belief.”
And when some actually want to object to the wrong trends in cinema , its ideas and subject and protest it , you call him a right-wing-nut-job.Because you hate societal control.
Your Ideas are so confused.In fact every guy who has negativity about India is confused.
You point out a problem in India and when someone tries to correct it , you call him fundamentalist and stop them from correcting thing and then go on with pointing out that problem.I want to ask that what is the escape route ?
In fact , the problem is that every damn Indian at hear support societal control.Its just that , to please some western intellect and to get their recognition try to become “open-minded’ in a closed circle.
Carry on India-Bashing and saying stupid things like “Arrange Marriages” are biggest problem in Indian society and that are to blame for eve-teasing , etc…How FUNNNNNNY ?
Then debate on the Merit without any preconceived notion that Mohit is right-winger , satrangi atankwadi or belongs to any gang , etc..those term don;t help in a discussion ..but you don’t discuss , you give judgement.
Its was my Ideal in life that I will never badmouth any women even if she misbehaves with me.But some very culturally insensitive comments from tamasha and wikitheeks actually forced me to break my Ideal.I am not a saint.Even Lord Krishna couldn’t control after 100 fault of Shishupal , I am just a Human.
Your responses are always sarcastic and you try to mention a hypothetical gang of which I , Nik , Prithvi , Amit , Manny are members.Almost all guys.Only you are left. Why ? Are you more liberal , evolved , cultured than all of these ? Ok , we can have differences of opinion sometimes and similarly of opinions but how can you club all of us in sort of a gang.And why is that your Ideas are never supported by this gang?Do we have any personal animosity with you? NO , we don’t even know you.so that is not intentional , its because of differences of opinions.Personal name calling is always wrong.
I never supported kala runt.And how could I? I didn’t even know the meaning of it.I just said I would check if it’s in racial tone or not.
My sister also call me bahiya , that is different yaar.Don’t twist the facts.
There have been a big political-social war like situation because of this word in Maharashtra and now you say its normal.I still remember you calling me regional chauvinist.And now you are defending a one.
All of what I wrote above came from heart as I am , as amit said , Highy Emotional guy but with a clear heart.
@ Mohit
I don’t know about you, and the perception depends from your view point and the perceived group dynamics between you guys.
And i know the perception would be formed on the basis of what you guys see in my comments.
And i also don’t understand your statements about asking the real persons areound you to form the right or truthful opinion. As we are forming perception about each other based on the communication process.
So I am not worried about the accuracy or inaccuracy of “How I am perceived” or “How close it is to the real me”
its just reflection of what I am communicating and what is the mind set of the receivers that blocks certain information and retains others. We are communicating here.
Like all, I have evolved, being fascinated by different ideologies….affected by social activist, Poetess and feminist Aunt…Have seen all the stages – interacting with grass root idealist comrade and an Idealist follower of a regional party leader and its ideology, An idealist follower of ABVP – all of them were passioante about making an impact and were driven by their desire to see better tomorrow. Nearly all of them were selfless, just differing in the path they had taken to follow thier ideals.
I respect all of them to follow thier ideals.
And as Amit says “All of them are right and all of them are wrong”
I consider myself as an independent thinker and I think about the issues that concern me or is stirred by the interactions.
This is not a blog about India, its an inter cultural blog. So be receptive to other perspectives, moral systems different from yours. Its a melting pot with diverse cultures and beliefs.
I have managed meetings with diverse thoughts and controlling groups at work. I know how to steer such meetins and cut the noise from discussions.
I dont see this as a place to see everyone through the prism of Indian ness, rather as a place of cultural exchange and getting different perspectives.
I am just trying to cut down the noise in my experience and communication process.
Hello Sharell
I know this is the wrong post to write this, but I was looking at your reading list; and had few recommendations of my own:
1. Khuswhant Singh – his short story selection; paints a picture of everyday people and life in India.
2. Ruskin Bond – A saip. (I find that word v.funny as it sounds like saanp to me) He has a wide repertoire of stories, like Ghost stories, etc.. but he also has many many stories about every day life and people. Should give a good idea about indians and life in India.
3. Malgudi days by R.K. Narayan – Another collection of short stories. Has many stories on personal emancipation, haggling, etc.. A realistic picture of simple small town india, minus anything sensational.
Happy reading !
Thank you!
Veeeh, I agree with you that grown adults should have the right to choose their own life partners. However we both know that that is not going to happen very easily in India with the arranged marriage system being so prevelent. Therefore I suggested a sort of interim period of “arranged betrothal and courtship” as a transition into self-determined dating and partner choosing. This transition period could last for a generation or 2, to get the culture used to the idea of young people courting one another. Cultural mores do not change over night. There are progressive stages. An entire village will not go from arranging marriages to “allowing” teens and young adults to date whom they please in a generation. The betrothal and courtship is a buffer suggestion. Betrothal and courtship is something that worked quite well for goras back in the Victorian ages.
Another issue is that the males will have to prepare themselves to compete for female attention. As it is now with the arranged marriage system most men are guaranteed a wife, regardless of their attraction potential.
Competition is key in an open market system.
(hello Mohit, as a non-leftist, non-commie “libertarian” you approve of open markets, right?).
There will have to be some training for the boys so that they can learn what attracts females. Everything from hygeine, grooming and fashion to communication and seduction skills should be taught.
@Wiki
I know that whatever I suggested is not practical in indian cultural context, though its probably a good solution for gender sensitization.
We have extremely high population and the younger folks are going to find things even more competitive.
And the courtship, mating rituals take hell lot of time, effort and energy.
That time would rather be used to sharpen your saw and get 100 marks in history and economics. For they would find cutoffs pegged at that level in a tier 3 college in near future.
I beleive in evolution, and lets wait and see if we sow seeds of destruction or something really positive for the future.
There maybe solutions in our history, but we need to dig them out.
Or be prepared for intense competition for strained resources and energy in the future. Future wars would be for resources.
Infact , probably there only hope would be Arranged marriage, unless they find thier soulmate in the colleges or workplace.
Veeeh, one can court or date and still study hard to make it ahead in school and life. We are talking here about all the guys who are out roaming the roads eve teasing women and girls. They are obviously sexually frustrated. A male’s sexual peak is between 17 and 23 thereabouts. Yet in India they are not married at that young age (outside of rural areas) and at same time they are forbidden to have any girlfriend.
I actually feel sympathy for the plight of these young men and would like to see them in healthy relationships rather than out on the streets degrading themselves in public by committing crimes like sexual harrassement.
@ Wiki
Sexual harassment is not a phenomenon limited only to India. Its there in every country and public harassing is probably one of the top fantasies of the Japanese male.
But then in Indian context, you are right that Males and females have very less effective sexual life. And the cultural conditioning prevents most of the females to be scared of intimacy.
But at this point of time, Indian population is facing many challenges. The action point on sexual harassment really depends on the activism and priority of society on this issue.
And I know how its not up in the list, where most will deny that this is a problem, including women.
But lets wait and watch as to how Indian society evolves. But yes the main reason for sexual objectification of women is due to the cultural apartheid. But the Societal control will only tighten when the younger population drives for change.
India has huge inbuilt resistance to change, but once its gets into momentum, It changes fast.
“Its there in every country and public harassing is probably one of the top fantasies of the Japanese male.”
If they’re merely “fantasizing” about it then they are not doing it. LOL. Have you lived in Japan? Is the situation similar to India where sexual harrassement is so rampant that travelling public transportation is a burden on the psyche of women for this reason?
Do women continuously talk and blog about this is a major and widespread societal issue Japan?
While all socieities have their problems, it is not true that they all have the same problems to the same degree.
Surely you are not suggesting that, are you?
oh No, I am not suggesting it.
I am aware that the scale of this issue is very high in India. And its challenge for a woman to travel , further compounded by the congested space, apathy and stigma associated with anyone raising voice against it.
Its really a curse, where an exploited woman would sink further deeper into the exploitation, rather than revealing the name of the sexual exploiter to the family members or law enforcement authorities.
I have heard of many stories particularly in the lower class, as my aunt is a social activist and a teacher. I come into contact poor people with unspeakable sexual harassment that defies prevailing middle class Indian sensibilities.
The problems and sexual exploitation of rag pickers or mentally disabled on the streets is unspeakable and filthy.
The sheer size of the population makes the absolute number sizable even is its single digit percentage.
The plight of the woman from the poor section of society is really bad as they don’t have proper sanitation, there is horrible level of invasion of privacy as well.
I am condoning or negating the scale of the issue.
I would still propose end of gender apartheid and taking the route other eastern countries successfully did. But I am also aware of the strong inherent resistance to the change.
The idea suggested by you already exists in southern states where cousins get married.
Yet sexual harassment exists to some extent. This is clearly not the solution as the courtship and romance still does not happen , despite man and woman being aware of their impending marriage, because of the social norms.
So , the Indian guys who are not married roam in streets harassing girls and women.And they are sexually starved. Hmmm ?
And we thought guys of age group 17-23 word hard to make their careers.yeah we were wrong , you know. lol..
Your Insight into India is crazzzzzily funnyy ! And that is when you have never visited India.GOD knows what if you ever visit India.
I might sound odd since i am kid, but this is just my thought.
If one’s mind is clear with no dirty thoughts, then it doesn’t matter how the other person dresses. After all, everyone has liberty to live their life by their way. Its just one’s thoughts and views that counts, that how he looks at the things.
If any women wears such blah blah short clothes, then either her intention must be to seduce some guy, or to just wear such clothes for fashion to look pretty with no intention. Now its on the viewer how he looks at that women from his view.
Its all like –
Nazar kahi, khayal aur kahi x:
Sharell, thanks as always for your support and for offering your considered perspective.
To the flamers in the comments going crazy, for God’s sake, take a break. I love this blog and the woman who writes it but I rarely read the comments because so many of them are inflammatory ad hominem attacks, and Sharell would need to employ a full-time moderator to control them. She has her own busy life; y’all could do yourselves a favour by getting out and having more of a laugh instead of staying in and spraying this invective.
Thanks Barns. I’ve gone through and deleted around 30 comments. Not my ideal way to start the morning I must say. Hopefully your remark will help get the message across.
men are visual creatures.women are not.
a reason why pornography for women never really took off.
Consider the message the movement is trying to send out: No matter what a woman is wearing, she is never “asking for it.”
In an ideal world, a woman should be able to walk down a platform at Churchgate and board a local train completely naked, without being touched or judged, the only thought in men’s minds being, “Where has she kept her pass?”
You might argue that the world is hardly ideal, hence the need for a ‘safe’ dress code.
I’m very sceptical about the efficacy of a movement that may well turn into a grabfest for the life-sized erection that is the male.
Women comprise almost HALF of porn users. Check the statistics. Again, X, what would YOU consider “properly dressed” and based on what criteria and why?
X, you asked a question about female anatomy and sexual response and I answered in a scientific way but Sharrell deleted it. That’s her perogative. However if you wish to discuss this further why not join me in the forums of the blog. I opened a topic “Sex in India” just to discuss this sort of thing. I think Sharrell wants to keep the blog comments themselves a tad bit more neutral
Yes, thank you. And everyone please tell me if there’s any offensive comments that need deleting that I’ve missed.
You have done a great job in deleting offensive posts , including many of mine , and I appreciate that because it helps in directing to fruitful discussion.And that is what the crux of discussion if “Societal-Control” is required.Well you yourself can seen how this blog is now looking like a BLOG now instead of a Nursery-School or Macchi-Bazar.
Keep doing this as far as your work allows to do.I am with you in this.
Thank you! Next time I will be billing you all for my time used in overseeing the nursery school.
Sorry , I won’t pay you for that because I have now been promoted to High-School in Class-First.
Oh and you know what, my husband has started reading my blog because of all the comments — he’s become addicted in the last few days. He’s more interested in what people have to say than what I write about!
After all he is an Indian and can’t curb his “Talab” for spicy and over the top discussion so he would definitely prefers filmsy commentators here than a subsided and simple Blogger like you.
Too true, he loved the masala so much, he though I should leave all your argumentative comments on the blog.
Women look better in short skirts and stilettos (if they have the legs for it). Being completely naked may result in men seeing their unsightly cellulite, other lumps and bumps and this would be a turn off just like men with big fat beer bellies is a turn off for women. In nature baboons have traffic light butts – bright red is the opposite of stop – it means GO, GO, GO!!! In the human world our bottoms do not light up bright red, so women wear kinky clothing to grab attention. So us dudes get turned on by long hair, curves, long legs, smiles and pretty eyes. A woman may not be as visual as a male, which is why some ugly minger men get dates with drop dead gorgeous hot women. Anyway, if a woman did not want attention, she would wear a burka and be done with it. Women who want to feel feminine, sexy, and attractive usually wear revealing clothes. This does NOT give dudes the right to act like DESPERATE morons with their tongue sticking out – dudes should be classy – but EVERYTHING in life is about sex. Why do people study to get a good job and a big house and fancy car? SEX! Why do people get married – SEX! Why do people buy designer clothes and crazy smelling perfumes? SEX! Women who want to walk like sluts should go ahead and do so – the pretty women who know they are hot usually avoid such walks – mostly the mingers go marching on slut walks – they are cheap and nasty not classy. Classy, attractive women never cheapen themselves – they wear clothes but leave a little to the imagination. SLUTS on the other hand wear clothes that SCREAM LOOK AT ME I HAVE SUCH AN UGLY MINGER FACE SO I TRY AND OVER-COMPENSATE by dressing like a hooker. SAD!
You have no idea what you are talking about. There are thousands of white people living around Delhi. Add to that, most tourists to India are white women.
I seriously don’t think this Slut Walk thing did much to improve the condition of women. As long as there will be morons out there thinking that women get rape because of how they dress things won’t change, maybe instead of blaming women we should just start threatening perverts from castration
As for this particular Slut Walk in Delhi, well I haven’t really followed it well, read a few articles here and there. What annoys me the most is that once again India is made to think desi women were dressed well and that the real slut of the walks were the foreigners!!!! Thanks to medias! SO SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK of hearing that we western women are sluts for wearing capris, short, skirts form fitting t-shirts and tank tops! I know quite a few desi women just wearing what I wear (capri and stretch t-shirt or short flattering kurti), does that make us slut? HELL NO, but that sure make any man who eve tease an utterly prehistoric, moronic, bad mannered dickhead (pardon my French) so why exactly should women be made to feel like it is their fault if some men will just think with their wee wee instead of their head I ask you?
Beside I’ve been seriously eve teased wearing the most baggy dirty sweat pants I own, a equally shapeless baggy hoodie jacket walking my dog in broad daylight, one idiot decided to follow me in his bicycle all around the neighbourhood and then corner me right in front of my house saying “Nice balls ma’am” to whcih I replied “WHAT???” and him to go again mimicking boobs with his hand and say “”Nice balls” coming closer to me, at which point I shouted for him to go tell that to my husband…or to the police station down the road, and the guy fled as fast as he could on his cycle as my shouting attracted some of my neighbours as well, who then asked me what happened. Puzzling how he saw “balls” under my sweater really, or anything full of shape and sexiness, so yup, a jerk is by many name still a jerk and nothing will change that, except maybe have more assertive women in society to give them a run for their money.
There is no such thing as a “slut”. Everyone has a different definition of it. If a woman has safe consensual sex with even 1 too many partners of someone else’s arbitrary cut off line (like 5 men or 50 men or whatever arbitrary number it might be), that person might think of her as a “slut” while someone else might think whatever number is low and moderate.
So there is no meaning.
And no matter how many CONSENSUAL partners a man or woman has, that does not mean I have a right to FORCE myself on them. That’s what these people don’t understand.
The thing that these public sexual harrassers don’t “get” is that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH expressing their sexual desire TO A CONSENSUAL PARTNER.
There is no force, no crime, no shame, no guilt in that.
So all they need to do is get a damn partner and they can engage in all the MUTUAL, CONSENSUAL sexual activity they want with her.
Why are they out trying to FORCE their sexuality on people who don’t want it?
“There is no such thing as a “slut”
Then why “Slut-walk” because that can be objectionable to both “sluts” and “walkers”.
wikifreak,
Oh, are you talking about some “relative slutism” or what? But you’re very very right.
I mean, for all those Sambas (ugh!coughing!) you have had, you may not have been a slut. You were a biatch for them.
For all those Mowglis you didn’t have, you could have been a slut. It’s cultural relativism.
We live in an *absolutely relative* world! Ask the Tarzans if you don’t believe me. They are still the ‘Lords of the Jungle’.
Three of my friends had attended this morcha and my full support was with them and it will always be. What men (Indian and all over the world) need to understand that women are not sex objects. You can read about so many rapes in news papers and not all of those poor women were in skimpy clothes. What will you say about rapes with minors. So all I want to say is clothes has nothing to do with it, Its only the disgusting mentality. The day they will understand that women are not sex objects; no matter what dress a woman is wearing, she will be safe. May be the proper sex education can improve things a lot.
All the morchas will not keep rapists and molesters away,what it needs
is a tighter rule of law and a little common sense,for eg dress code is diffrent in metros and vastly diffrent in smaller cities.India is a democracy and we have right to wear what we want,but we also forget that even in foreign countries nudist beaches are secluded aeras…this is due to limit of decency a society has defined .There is no justification of acts fof class mentioned obove but until our society is matured to that level of thinking its up to us to save our selves and a little common sense will do wonders
Kamal, you are asking women to be mindful of dress codes between metros and smaller cities. What about the sadhus and digambari jain monks who go throughout India naked? Must they also be mindful?
How is it that wearing a short skirt or spaghetti straps cause so much tamasha yet naked men do not?
Either have one standard for all or no standard at all.
If some women want to covert to “Jainism” or “Naga” sect of Hinduism and want to Roam through out India naked with those saints/monks , I seriously have no problem.
That way we can attract more people to be religious , hmmm ?
Some people think that it is fashionable for them to be Nude.And also that it is easy.It takes a Heart and Body of STEEL to roam around naked in winters/summers/rains without any shoes/chappal on hot/cold/wet roads and sleep on a hard floor.
How can anyone compare that with what women want to wear?
The whole issues of Rights of Indian women has been actually hi-jacked by “Non-Indian” women both in real and virtual world for their two minutes of fame.
I asked many of my female friend about what they think of this Morcha organized by Umang Sabarwal.Most of them simply disapproved of her Ideas.Actually everybody here wants a safe India for women but some want to cash on this issue for their personal issue.
I can bet this girl Umang , very shortly , would be seen on TV acting in some reality show/soaps etc.
argument for its sake dosent justifies anything.As much as iran iraq argued with america didnt help them much.As from ancient ages men have been physically stronger so strength with uneducation and envoirment and mentality makes them do things which other wise shouldnt happen.In my post i havent justified that trait but one should understand that ones own safety is paramount,and every precaution should be taken.As for nagas if they roam like that in other countries will they be allowed there…its basically accepted custom,in india there are tribal pockets in assam,ponicherry where male female live naked…so its a social norm
Sharell ,
The concept of “Slut-Walk” may be new or recent to western world.But it’s seeds were sown in India in 1974.Only difference was that then it was a one-woman show of Late Protima Bedi , a Model and Odissi Dancer and wife of Kabir Bedi.
And the desire to be free from clutches of “Social-Moral-Policing” was far more passionate than we see in Slut-Walks all over the world.
Cine Blitz a new magazine wanted to do something different for its launched in 1974. They got the idea to get a picture of an actress streaking. Protima Bedi was the perfect choice according to the
The first photosession was at the Flora Fountain. “But Protima was unhappy with the pictures. She said that her breasts were sagging and she asked for a reshoot.
And the classic and theatrical response of Protima Bedi to the question “Why she streaked” was extraordinary and out-of-the-box even for most-liberal western society.
She responded to the question.
“Society has a special way of turning a joyous expression into something ugly. Here I am in all my totality. Those who have leered at women, lusted for them and gone through discovering just that little bit more, I say to them: come, see me I was born this way.”
To find more on contents actual pics follow the below link.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/specials/proj_tabloid/tabloidhome1812.shtml
Just curious to know what happened to my comment which mentioned another such sexual revolution that happened in India in 1974 when Protima Bedi streaked though the streets of Mumbai fully naked in daylight.
I did post that because I genuinely thought it is relevant and related to the topic and was not abusive , indecent or offensive to anyone.I fact I mentioned it because I support cause of women’s liberation and freedom.
It is disappointing that I invest time and emotions to type a comment related to the blog post only to find that it has been disappeared from here.If anyone objected to that comment ?
To avoid this disappointment , I would seriously like you to laid out a code-of-conduct plan for what I can post and what not so it become easy for all of us and that way we can save time and electricity.
Sorry , I got that . It was just above my head here.
It might’ve been okay, I can’t remember. It could’ve been caught up in mass delete — sorry!
I can see the great barbarianism (of Germanic tribes, Hitler, etc.) alive and kicking inside you that’s causing you to get caught up in these ‘ virtual massacre’.
Sharell Germanic ??? No !
But her ancestors may have fought with those tribes before they migrated to down under from UK.
It’s called “same shit, different pile.”
@Amit Bhai
Calling someone Nazi/Hitler or something similar is highly offensive and it’s a sensitive thing, for many people in the world. So, when you call names, be careful with your words…just a suggestion, not an order, Amit bhai!
@Mohit Bhai
All Northern European tribes are all Germanic…Brits and Germans (including their respective languages) are West Germanic. So, Sharell is Germanic (considering that she has roots in the UK – probably Scottish).
May be, it is offensive. But that’s the point. What about calling people Talibani-backward morons, Saffron terrorists…etc? Do you think these words are not offensive or sensitive?
And more importantly, my comment was a figurative language – a comparison of two different things that are comparable metaphorically.
Sharell’s mindless virtual massacre (that is, mass delete of comments) vs. Hitler’s mindless real-life massacre. And since both Sharell and Hitler belong to a similar tribe, the comparison becomes more artistic, provided you are not a geek who only know high-level languages (java, c, c++, vb etc), that I’m equally aware of.
@ Sharell,
What’s the image of prashanth in your mind?
I actually know what he looks like.
How come ?
[Quote]Sharell’s mindless virtual massacre (that is, mass delete of comments) vs. Hitler’s mindless real-life massacre. And since both Sharell and Hitler belong to a similar tribe[Quote]
There’s nothing funny or artistic, when you compare someone to Hitler/Nazi, Mr.Amit.
[Quote]you are not a geek who only know high-level languages (java, c, c++, vb etc), that I’m equally aware of.[Quote]
I never claimed to be a computer scientist, like you did, Monsieur Amit…and I’m not a geek, but a freak..LOL..My job is my ‘Bread and Butter’…sorry ‘Idly and Sambar’ or ‘Masala Dosa’.
[Quote]What’s the image of prashanth in your mind?[Quote]
For Sharell, I’m one of those typical Indian idiots, like you or Mohit…and she has probably deleted more posts of mine, than yours…So, stop whining like a school kid!
I didn’t even compare someone to Hitler. My comparison was directed at ‘mindless (barbarian) massacres’. His name was just used to ‘connect’ the two different things I was comparing.
Now, come out the ‘prashanth – the preacher’ mode and go back to prashanth – the script kiddie’ mode.
Or even better take this comment to lawyer, and have him punish me for its ‘offensiveness due to the comparison to Hitler’.
@Sharell
The guys here would be shocked to see the dresses worn at certain parts of the country few centuries ago.
There was no concept of bra, blouse. Even now in the rural area I do see all old ladies walking wearing saree, without any blouse or underskirt or even undergarments.
Were they sluts?
I hear stories from my grandmother, how they used to walk to fetch water from the village pond and walk eating smoked meat or ground nuts.
And there was no harassment.
I remember seeing a documentry where sikh soldiers in Italy unearthed Paintings stored in one room by Germans. Those painting were of the nude women, and the soldiers were giggling like small kids when they informed thier British officer.
The problem is not with the dress , its just that people blame outside reasons like dress or attitude of women for their own pervertness.
Life in village is much simpler, as long as different castes in the village are at equillibrium. Women folk do so much work that anyone daring to sexually harass can expect to be thrashed.
I remember an incident, when i was working at Hosur as management trainee in one company. There was a panipuri stall and this middle aged woman well dressed, wearing powder and jasmine flower was walking past it.
One of the young man at the stall said “USthava” in telugu which means “aathee kya?”
She thrashed him like anything. And soon was supported by an older man, probably her neighbor who thrashed that guy for good.
The reason was that the woman was local and the boy probably from somewhere outside, staying and working in the industrial town.
This kinda proves that even mouse becomes a lion at its home. And this is applicable for girls too!
The dress code morality was again forced by the semitic interaction, look at how women dressed otherwise. They would have given run for money to all those bikini clad westrn models.
The problem is not with the dress, or woman – the problem is with a mind that is making excuses for its own weaknesses and pervertness. The original traditional dress of both men and woman was localized and climate dependent.
It also reminds me of the story of Ramakrishna Paramahansa, known for experimenting with religon. He was trying to learn tantric way from a woman, who asked her to sit on her lap, when she was nude.
Ramakrishna hesitated, for which she said “Sit on my lap as my child and imagine me to be your mother”
That was the incident which changed the perspective of ramakrishna about woman, he saw mother in every woman, including his wife.
A pervert and sick man will rape 80 year old woman, a 8 year old girl or a woman wearing burqua.
@ Sharell
There is another perspective to how simple things were before. Maybe it could be attributed to state of innocence as both men and women were simple folks and had not much awareness.
Its not hard to imagine women with belief that sleeping on the same bed with a man will make her pregnant.
This age of innocence, I would compare with naked Adam and Eve staying at the garden of Eden.
Once the knowledge comes after eating the apple (Sin filled awareness or knowledge), that innocence is lost and both men and women rush to cover their body.
Maybe we lost the simple lives and age of innocence. And the Increased aware of one’s own power and pervertness is causing all the sex related harrassment and crimes.
*Awareness of *
Indian Cultural environment has always been tolerant of how people dress. It allows Digambars, Swethambars to co exist, which is symbolic of how tradition of social tolerance had prevailed in the Indian cultural ethos.
You can find naked female and male holy seers.
The way ancient dressed is a testimony to our tolerance with the way men and women dressed. Its splashed all over the walls of the temples.
And as i mentioned earlier, I can still see old women in my village not wearing blouse or any under garments, which reflects how young people dressed as late as Pre independence era.
The dress code is again a Semitic culture driven.
There is nothing Hindu about dress code.
If the modern society is insisting on a dress code, then it should have been overwhelmed by a value system which does not have roots in India.
Strangely we seem to be sticking to the ritualistic traditions and not the traditional values. Our traditional values seem to be overwhelmed by the western and Semitic morality driven values, with respect to an expectation of a uniform dress code.
The formal prescribed dress code for all occasions is strangely being questioned in the west, the birth place of this dress related morality.
And since they are being questioned in the west, this tradition of enforced uniform dress code has to be Indian! And defended as an Indian tradition.
Do we need to look at west to either ape or oppose a value? What about our historical positions and experience?
Now everything falls in piece.
@ Sharell:
veeeeeh has summed it up perfectly. The kind of Indian men who ‘eve tease’ belong to a certain socio-economic class. These men live in a gender apartheid society where the only women they interact with would fit into what they call as the ‘aunty’ group. For these men, younger and sexually attractive women are akin to aliens from venus. Teaching these men to ‘respect women’ and expect them to follow it up is futile – given that there is little to no incentive for them to do so.
I would like to Know which “Socio-Economic-Class” Mr Straus Kahn Belonged ?
And which “Gender-Apartheid” he had to suffer?
The answer of this question simply wash away any pre-conceived notion of such a “socio-economic-class” which indulge in Eve-teasing.
As my profession require , I meet with many people from the biggest companies of World.And they don’t belong to a Specific “Socio-Economic-Class” and Few of them indulge in Eve-Teasing , Lewd-Comments , Lust-full Stare and Sexual advances.
This argument simply defies any logic and should sit pretty in the DUSTBIN.
Strauss Kahn was a deviant. What is he did is neither common and nor socially tolerated in his country. Hence, the news.
The socio-economic group of Indians that I was talking about is the middle class in parts of India where gender mixing outside immediate relations is a taboo and where strict codes of gender apartheid is a part of social control. In parts of India where these controls don’t exist and where men and women are free to mingle, ‘eve teasing’ is a non-issue.
But NEWS about Strauss Kahn was true. Ok.
Let me put this way !
1. Delhi is on the top for “Crime against Women”.
2. Also it is also fairly liberal as far as “Mingling of Women and Men” is concerned.
I don’t this Delhi is suffering any gender apartheid but still it is suffering from eve-teasing.
So I would put it like “Co-existence of Eve-Teasing and Gender-Liberty” is more likely to exist than “Co-existence of Gender-Apartheid and Eve-Teasing”.
I think , there is some problem in perception.As women are blamed for their “Inappropriate Dressing” being the cause of ‘Crime against women” , similarly people of lower socio-economic strata are UNJUSTIFIABLY blamed as a GROUP involved in Eve-Teasing.
I can vouch for the fact , that in rural areas eve-teasing is almost non-existent.Though , other women-related problems do surely exist.
Indeed. Most of the perpratators of these crimes against women are not the elites who get to ‘mingle’ with women but average Rajus from UP, Bihar or Haryana who have no experience with women.
Delhi is not as liberal and cosmopolitan as you make it out to be – the majority of people here live a lifestyle not very different from the rest of middle class India.
In rural areas, the lack of anonymity cover ensures that an eve teaser would get punished harshly for his antics.
I really don’t think that people from Haryana , Punjab , UP and Bihar don’t have any experience with women.
What is the basis of such perception ? People at every place , be it a village , town , city or metros , have experience with women.The quality and type of that ‘experience’ may differ only.There are lots of girls and women in Haryana , UP and Bihar and guys there would definitely have some ‘experience’ with them , No doubt.
So there is simply no reason to put the blame of eve-teasing in the cities on some ‘Raju’ who don’t have experience with women.
“Lack of something” has hardly been the reason of any crime in the history of Mankind.But “GREED of Something” and “Corruption of Mind” are usual reasons for any crime to be committed by any person, irrespective of his socio-economic status or the place where he hails from.”Crime” is done at a very individual level so its more of an individual thing and shouldn’t be blamed on some specific states of India.
There is a saying by Neitzsche (Renaissance philosopher) – “Man a man wait too long (for something) and evil and corrupt thoughts start to seep into his mind.” Thats the case here. You starve a man and he learns to steal, once he gets used to stealing he targets bigger.
Experience with who – their aunts and sisters? The existence of girls in a town doesn’t equate with experience with women. Not especially in parts of India where a man can be murdered, castrated or beaten up for doing so much as talking to someone’s sister or daughter.
Hang Him who RAPE.
This is the only and FINAL SOLUTION to this Menace.
I am sure , it will work.
And you will see that coming generation would not even recall what RAPE actually meant and more probably this word would diminish from the dictionary.
There is no place for rapist in civil society.
Vikas has a point here. Suggesting women to dress appropriately is not a violation of their freedoms, but more like suggesting that you keep your money out of sight in public places. Rape and molestation are crimes perpetrated by sociopaths – it makes sense for women to dress in a way that doesn’t attract the attention of these perverts. And a cop suggesting that is neither a crime nor a violation of women’s rights. No amount of whining, complaining, walks or protests is going to change that.
@Abdullah
Yes its right that its always good to be on the safer side. Again how women dress up is refection of the urbanization and the cultural tolerance for such dressing up.
There is difference between a woman getting into a vulnerable situation and being vulnerable by just dressing up.
Even in the conservative party circle of Chennai, you do find higher class girls and wanna be middle class girls. The girls are rebel teens and are to be seen in every culture.
They essentially live on the expenses of the rich boy and have fun time in the parties. They seriously lack self esteem and are vulnerable to exploitation by the sheer circumstances they put themselves.
Then there are girls who dress provocatively, because they are rich and are out of reach of the common hormone driven boy. Its another way of class war, a subtle one though, where they tease the lower class by being desirable and yet out of the reach of them
These girls rarely get into circumstance since they are insulated from the interaction from boys from other classes. they are endangered, only when they are vulnerable due to the circumstances at the parties or any such gathering.
The brunt of eve teasing is borne by the middle class women, because they get out from the secure surroundings of their home. They rarely dress to provoke and yet are subjected to invasion of their private space, leading to further degradation of the girl’s self esteem and lose of healthy sexual evolution.
And the problems that lower class women faces are totally different and can be attributed to sheer poverty and availability of any private space.
They not only face sexual intrusion from testosterone riding boys/men from their own class but also from upper class who sees them as objects with their class prerogative on them.
You can ask the girls who for door to door sales, how many sexually lewd comments they get to hear from men!
Interesting and rather sad.
Criminologists and other professionals have interviewed thousands of rapists and most of them did not even remember what their victims were wearing. Clothing has NOTHING to do with rape.
As far as “dressing appropriately” WHO DECIDES what is “appropriate”?
Take a look at the women in the photo above. They are covered from head to toe and dressed very modestly/conservatively. Yet there are people in India who think jeans are inappropriate and going without a duppata is similarly inappropriate.
Totally agree, wikitheeks. What a pile of nonsense has been written here about women’s clothing, when anyway the vast majority of rapes are committed by someone well-known to the woman. And comparing women to inanimate objects such as locked houses and wallets is utterly beyond offensive.
I am afraid wikitheeks, that is rather unconvincing, given the fallaciousness of your statement. Who are these criminologists and what was the method of their data gathering? Were the rapists expected to be honest about their crimes, motivation and the exact mental state when interviewed by these so called professionals?
I am no statistician but I know enough about surveys to know not to take them as facts unless backed up by their methology and the veracity of data.
@ Joanne: It wasn’t supposed to be a comparison but an example. The example meant to assert the common sense, “Rapists are criminals just like thieves and muggers, so your best bet is to avoid attracting their attention and being a target”.
There’s a huge difference between rape and eve-teasing. Just because a guy eve-teases does not mean he would rape. However eve teasing is a also a crime, although a lesser one than rape. I don’t know what guys expect to gain through sexual harrassement like eve teasing. Do they expect to get a date that way? A girlfriend? Would these same bhaiyas and lallus know what to do with a girl if they got her alone? Are they reknowned for their seduction and lovemaking skills?
You don’t know what guys expect to gain from eve-teasing? What kind of feminist are you?
For the same reason, many men have enjoyed bullying gay men or weaker men. Do you know why?
Come on, type in Google, fast!
Amit is right
Eve teasing is also a display of power on the weaker sex. Its a form of bullying.
Ask one of them. We can discuss this till we are blue in the face and still get nowhere, without some first person inputs. I do have a theory through, as silly as it sounds.
In Brazil, I observed courtship rituals following a pattern that would be considered molestation in India or a western country. Perhaps thats how the world evolved and India is still in the middle stage between the prudishness of Anglo-Saxon society and the permissiveness of the Dharmic society. Hence what was probably a courtship ritual turned to ‘eve teasing’.
Raises hands as the person with “first person” inputs.
I have lived an eventful life and have experimented alot with my life. I believe in the saying “try and forget”. I would try everything at least ones. A normal guy like me would eve tease in two different circumstances -
one is when boy is with a group of boys. He does many things to show that he has testosterone and do things like breaking earthen pots of anyone carrying it, shoplifting, eve teasing and doing things that boys consider as part of being the gang.
Second, is when is alone and is purely driven by his hormones and circumstances. This would be thing slike pushing the legs under the seat to measure the response of the girl. If she does not respond then push and do whatever your hormones drives you to. And one does take chance with docile looking girl only, who is above threshold level of attractiveness.
one does get into conflict with oneself but at times the hormones overwhelm the logical and moral reasoning.
Eve teasing in Indian context is not courtship. it either a titillation of masculine senses or display of being macho.
That is what I could say from my experience.
And all this before gender sensitization, it was only in the second year of the college that I got into the gang with girls. then the outlook of the life changed, hanging out at the canteens, going to movies together, or beaches or to each others houses especially girls.
“In Brazil, I observed courtship rituals following a pattern that would be considered molestation in India or a western country.”
Yet another reason for Western countries, especially mine, to clamp down on immigration.
You don’t have to clamp down on anything. Given how things are going in your countries, Brazil will soon have to frame policies to prevent the likes of you migrating to their country.
And by the way, once you get to understand the way things are in Brazil, it is one of the most wonderful countries in the world, culturally speaking. Of course, if you are an American, culture is…
@ prashant: Don’t use ‘Gospodin’. It sounds funny, ancient and very foreign – its never used by present day Russians. Use Mr instead, that’d sound less like a serf addressing a b’yar.
@ wikitheeks: Traditionally, European countries have been socially liberal and politically moderate. Feminism was never as radical in Europe as it is in the US. However, with the fall of CCCP, things are changing fast.
The strongest condemnation of Sarkozy’s burka ban came from American liberals and government. The few countries that tried to protect themselves from militant Islamism have been bombed to submission by US-led NATO nexus (eg. Serbia). And if Obama has his way, countries of East Europe that joined the NATO will soon have to accomodate African, Arab and other non-European immigration.
Americans (and their Anglo-Saxon sidekicks) have been trying to push their ‘white guilt’ on Europeans even though none of these countries were a part of America’s dirty past.
Traditionally? Who cares? We have to deal with the here and now and European socialism has been its own downfall. Handing out free benefits left and right has created largesse and laziness and these immigrants take full advantage of that. They don’t even have to stop immigration. If they stop handing out hand-outs these people will not want to come to their countries anymore.
@ wikitheeks:
Your ignorance surprises me. When it comes to work, immigrants are the ones who work the hardest for the least pay. They are not eligible for welfare and their ‘paperless’ status is taken for advantage by their shady employers.
@ Mohit Gupta:
I am not against the freedom and equality that Muslims enjoy; I am against them taking this hospitality for granted, by imposing their culture and religion on secular Europeans. It is like a guest in your house taking over your kitchen and cooking beef.
I got it that we can agree that muslims or other immigrants are entitled to freedom without disturbing the cultural fabric of host country.That concludes the discussion.
Abdullah, “Your ignorance surprises me. When it comes to work, immigrants are the ones who work the hardest for the least pay. They are not eligible for welfare and their ‘paperless’ status is taken for advantage by their shady employers.”
This is true in the United States wrt Mexican immigrants. They often do make sure though that they have an “anchor baby” as soon as possible that will permit them to receive benefits because their infant is automatically a US citizen. A law that needs to be revised in my opinion.
However in socialist European countries it is not true. Those immigrants are shamelessly living off the dole.
“A law that needs to be revised in my opinion.”
Does Obama really care a damn about your opinions which are full of exclusivity when you yourself are an alien to the country you are living in.
Why do you have such a ‘narrow minded’ approach while talking about immigrants.they are not crusader or invaders.Nobody want to leave his/her country.They migrate for money.And they work hard like anything.Just like Nepalese and Bangladeshi domestic worker work so hard as domestic aid and get lesser than an Indian in India.
Even if you take all the immigrants out of a country , there will still be ‘natives’ who will living shamelessly off the dole.So why blame all the hardworking immigrant with some ‘shameless’ people who don’t belong to any specific country or religion.
Chill Mr. Gupta. She is just being an American.
she is none. Actually she is a freelancer citizen of her hypothetical world.She becomes what suits her in any discussion.For example if its an issue about “Besharmi Morcha” she becomes totally Indian.When it comes to the issues of immigration she becomes American.When it comes to discussion about Caribbean she becomes India-Jamaican and so on. She is being an opportunistic citizen of every damn country in the world.
Mexicans coming over and dropping babies to gain citizenship suits me just fine.
I take schadenfreude pleasure in the fact that their land was grabbed from them in the first place. So its Karma doing its thing.
Moreover, I need my lawn mowed every week on the cheap.
Geez, growing up in California I’ve heard this story soooo many times. I can remember as a little girl in the 70′s (when dinosaurs & disco roamed the Earth) Spanish was banned in schools because THE MEXICANS ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER!!! Then proposition 13 making it unlawful to provide healthcare to illegal aliens at the state level but unlawful NOT to provide health services at the federal level to anyone who needs them.
The truth is the majority of people in the US receiving ‘welfare’ or federal & state subsidized healthcare are WHITE.
The US needs migrants for cheap labor & jobs Americans won’t do.
The same way most of the Muslims are brought to Europe for cheap labor & jobs Europeans won’t do.
California is broke. Europe is broke. Who’s going to keep subsidizing these people?
Manny, be a man and mow your own damn lawn!
Whats so manly about mowing lawns?
Moreover, that’s my elliptical and treadmill time!
tsk Tsk!
@ Manny, “take schadenfreude pleasure in the fact that their land was grabbed from them in the first place. So its Karma doing its thing.”
But then where on earth will Desis like you immigrate to if the entire world is taken over by third worlders? You will have to stay in India because the whole world will be like India and there will be no developed country to migrate too, not even for education and a 3 year stint in Silicon Valley.
This is the “schadenfreude” karmic revenge to people who think like you!
All the good countries you go to for education and jobs will be just as run down as India.
wikitheeks,
I love women with obscene minds !
So whey did you go to the west or got born in the west? To fk it up for the rest of us?
When I first went to the US, I was not expecting some brown arse like you there.. once I saw people like you there messing it up, I felt, Oh well! Might as well let all the Mexicans in!
If YOU can get in my dear, the rest of Mexico might as well get in.
“Americans (and their Anglo-Saxon sidekicks) have been trying to push their ‘white guilt’ on Europeans even though none of these countries were a part of America’s dirty past.”
Italy , Russia , Germany and even Poland all had their own dirt in their backyard of past so they need not to become part of America’s dirt.
Americas’s opposition to ‘ban on burqa’ is just not based on the principle of equality but it is reflected well in Federal Law also.The people of the United States have a firm 1st Amendment protection of freedom of speech from government interference that explicitly includes clothing items, as described by Supreme Court cases such as Tinker v. Des Moines.”
And speech of Obama is very convincing in this regard when he called on the West “to avoid dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear”, and he elaborated that such rules involve “hostility” towards Muslims in “the pretense of liberalism”.
Didn’t you once say that a muslim in USA enjoys freedom and rights of equality more than any country in the world ? Then why don’t you back USA on their anti-burqa-ban stance?
The very large US is very different from small European countries. The type of Muslim immigrants the US allows in are already middle-upper middle class professionals, as it should be.
You do not see hordes of niqabis clustered in a small geographical area or creating ghettos of non-assimilation like you do in small European countries.
How does one expect to get a job with their face covered? Do they expect to live off the government dole for the rest of their lives? Who will pay for it, tax payers? The economy cannot sustain that longterm.
If thats how you feel about Islamic culture, shouldn’t Burkha be banned in India too? (Personally as a libertarian as long as women are not forced they have a fundamental right to wear whatever)
Or are you one of those liberals who would speak on behalf of white christian nations to defend their culture from the horror of Islamists, but turn around and defend them in India?
[Quote]Traditionally, European countries have been socially liberal and politically moderate. Feminism was never as radical in Europe as it is in the US. However, with the fall of CCCP, things are changing fast.[Quote]
True that, Abdullah!
[Quote]Americans (and their Anglo-Saxon sidekicks) have been trying to push their ‘white guilt’ on Europeans even though none of these countries were a part of America’s dirty past.[Quote]
@Abdullah
I don’t understand this, as Americans are basically Europeans (specially, when you consider the fact that immigration to America, is a relatively recent thing)…and all countries (specially European countries) had their own dirty past. There is no developed country in this world, without dirty past (Holocaust/Wars/Slavery/Ethnic Cleansing) – including Japan.
Abdullah K,
You should read this excellent book . “Why I am not a muslim” by Ibn Warraq. It is a is a take on Bertrand Russell’s “Why I am not a christian”. He is a Pakistani apostate and like Salman Rushdie has had death threats from radical islamists.
If I were to write a book , “Why I am not a Hindu”, wonder if there would be death threats from the anti-secular, anti-liberal, intolerant, bigoted, fanatic Hindu taliban trolls here ??
Good question !
Most probably you will either be stoned or gassed in a chamber.These are the only two procedure which these anti-liberal Hindu-Taliban’s have been using for ages to kill anyone whom they don’t like or agree with.No?
@ Siddhartha Kumar:
I doubt it. Unlike Christianity or Islam, Hinduism is not a faith but what can be better defined as a dharma. From what I understand, you are not a Hindu because you declare your faith in the scriptures, but because you were born into the religion. And given that traditional Hinduism is very flexible, I’d wonder why you’d want ‘not to be a Hindu’ at all. You can be an atheist and still be inside the ‘fold’ (Bhagat Singh, Jawaharlal Nehru, etc.)
Excellent question. The problem with Hindu haters are not dissimilar with people who hate liberty! They have no answer. I mean, Hinduism is liberty of faith. It has no fundamental belief that one has to follow or face the wrath of the Hindu Priest.
Skepticism has always been a part of Hinduism. Our friend is so enamored by the middle eastern faith of Christianity and its dogma, he has given up on the skepticism of the Vedas!
“The Rig Veda questions the origin of the cosmos in: “Neither being (sat) nor non-being was as yet. What was concealed? And where? And in whose protection?…Who really knows? Who can declare it? Whence was it born, and whence came this creation? The devas were born later than this world’s creation, so who knows from where it came into existence? None can know from where creation has arisen, and whether he has or has not produced it. He who surveys it in the highest heavens, he alone knows-or perhaps does not know.” (Rig Veda 10. 129)”
To say “We do not know” is the purest of the pure of truths!
@ wikitheeks:
As I already pointed before, the impoverished immigrants in Europe are the types who don’t have the right papers to be there, hence they are not eligible for the doles. The biggest danger to European integrity does not come from these people who are looking for a better life, but from the more well off middle class Islamists who want to fulfill their dreams of global Islamic nation. They are the ones who have the money, political influence and the power to do the damage. They are also the ones who are more likely to be religious fantatics, because they believe they are on a messianic mission from allah.
@ prashanth:
They are Americans with European origins. They are no more European today than I am a Pharoah.
@ wikitheeks and TAMASHA!
This is how it is most likely to work out.
Kick out immigrants >> Employ American workers at higher wages >> Increase in cost of production >> Raise prices to sustain profits >> Increase food prices causing inflation >> Import foods >> More profitability in importing food >> Decline in domestic food production
I think Americans should go back to free slave labour. And companies like Microsoft and Google could fund a couple of fascist parties in Europe, so that we see World War 3. And hope for the best.
Women who go on slut walks are the following type of women:
1) UGLY (both inside and out) e.g. bad teeth, FAT, wobbly big bottoms, chip on their shoulder personality etc.
2) Have NEVER had a boyfriend, husband, partner – are so DESPERATE they come across as morons – real pathetic SCHMUCKS!
3) Have a MAJOR INFERIORITY COMPLEX
4) Are SOOOOO cheap and feel they must dress like hookers just to get attention. A real classy woman who KNOWS she is hot would never need to over compensate and act slutty.
5) Are dumb with no brain. Women who walk like sluts on this slut walk are usually mentally deficient and forgot to take their medication – they are wasters with no real goals in life and NO GUY would marry such a slut – they are useless wife material and would make crap mothers too. Only a LOSER guy would marry a walking slut! (Or a sitting down slut, or a lying down slut, or ANY SLUT for that matter).
6) Slut walk women are DUMPY HUMPTY DUMPTIES with a droopy disposition – they are sick, ugly beastie bugs who get NO HUGS!
MORAL OF THE RANT: ALWAYS REMEMBER TO WEAR YOUR CLOTHES BEFORE LEAVING THE HOUSE. AND REMEMBER BE CLASSY AND COOL, SOPHISTICATED AND SMART – DON’T WALK LIKE A SLUT OR DRESS LIKE A TART!
Oh Maximillian Winner, you remind me very much of one Dupree Singh. Has he reincarnated and joined us again by any chance?
Hey sheila nah dunno who that is – don’t know if I should take that as a compliment or not.
Sorry I meant Sharell – called you Sheila – sorry!
Well that’s what women are called in Australia — sheilas! And men — blokes. So you’re excused!
Hmmm, and I dunno if I should believe you or not.
You’re funny!
I think you should be called Maximillian Weiner.
Ok, ok YOU’RE FUNNY TOO!!! Don’t feel left out.
WHAT THE HECK IS EVE TEASING? I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THIS (opps sorry caps – looks like I’m shouting)!!! Eve is a nice name – just because a woman’s name is eve does not give anyone the right to tease her about it. – WHAT is this eve teasing – please explain!
Maximillian Winner = TROLL
Hi TAMASHA, what is a troll – never heard of that acronym?
Oh I see, I just looked it up on wikipedia – no I’m not a troll TAMASHA, I am just very opinionated – no offence intended to anyone, just my personal opinion is rather strong – some agree, some disagree that’s all.
So I guess you don’t like FAT people.
Do you make fun of people with cancer too?
NO I would NEVER make fun of someone with cancer, and I have friends who are fat. In the heat of the moment, my choice of words can be somewhat hmmm, haphazard, however, I come in peace and like everyone. Why did you ask such a question though?
What sort of SCHMUCK would post something like this?
‘UGLY (both inside and out) e.g. bad teeth, FAT, wobbly big bottoms, chip on their shoulder personality etc.’
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
@ TAMASHA!
Sorry to butt in Tamasha, but is there anyone who actually likes fat people? (Except in circuses)
Abdullah!!!
Abdullah that was nasty.
Making fun of people because of health problems is not cool.
Lots of people have problems that aren’t as visible- ie alcoholism.
Do you make fun of people in wheelchairs too?
For someone who works in the fitness industry you should know better.
Hellow Abdullah mr.mans.,
I am wery true your comment. Fat people, unless they have a GENUINE endocrine disorder like HYPO (HIPPO) THYROID problemings, they are FAT because…
1) THEY ARE EATING TOO MUCH due to idiotic brain not having self control or just being ugly greedy creature
2) THEY ARE LAZY PEOPLE not liking exercisings and like to just order take away pizza home delivery and also sit munching on sofa couch watching JERRY SPRINGER stupid people who are fighting
3) THEY get depressed and eat MORE instead of get off their bottom and work out more.
I have seen FAT UNCLES who have become 1/4 their sizings due to special forces style motivatings that I gaven them. I nickname by my friends is “THE SERGEANT” because I motiwate all my friends to become super fit like me. I vill NOT tollerate LAZYBONE behawiour ewer ok.
Goog, good, you are an intelligent Mr.mans abdullah.
@the honorable Dr Rao-
Listen Kolapatty, you have absolutely NO MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE & you are SHORT too.
So don’t go spewing your hateful non medical based judgements on obesity all over the internet.
Also TAMASHA! I have met Kolapatty Rao and he is pretty tall for an Indian guy he’s 5’11″ which is not as tall as a 6’5″ white guy, but is ok height for an Indian. What he lacks in height he makes un by the HUGE size of his personality (well that’s his nickname for it anyway so they say).
Dear TAMASHA!,
The first law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed – it can only be changed from one form to another. As a doctor, please explain how someone sitting sedentary ALL DAY LONG and munching on pizza and pepsi is not lazy behaviour and not their own fault?
Also as a side note I AGREE 100% with TOM CRUISE (I think he said it or someone else) that PSYCHIATRY is all a CON and is an evil ploy just to make money instead of teaching people how to use their brains and get rid of mind viruses that they put in.
Dear Max-
Take 3 different people make them sit & be sedentary & feed them both pizza & pepsi (YUK) all day long, one might get fat, one might stay average weight & one might get enormously fat.
Now what happened to your 1st law of thermodynamics?
Lots of fat people don’t eat pizza or drink pepsi & they exercise.
Dear TAMASHA!, I am genuinely interested in learning more about why one would get fat, one would stay lean, and the other would get enormous. Can you recommend any good medical texts or websites that will help me learn why this happens. The reason I ask is because all my life I have thought that fat people are just lazy unless they have a genuine medical condition, and if I am mistaken then I need to learn the truth and what really is happening to them, in which case I would never laugh at fat people ever again, and I would become sympathetic to them and be caring towards them. I really want to learn about why this happens, I don’t mind how complicated the subject is, I want to learn. If hormones are violating the laws of thermodynamics this is mind blowing to me – as a non-doctor I am fascinated and MUST learn why this happens – I just do not understand WHERE the energy is going? If the exact SAME energy is entering the body where is it all going? Why is one turning it all into fat and the other is not. I must learn this so I can tell others not to make fun of fat people – so if you happen to know any good resources, I’d be most obliged if you could pass them on as a link / text book title etc thanks.
Ps. I came across a chap named Ron Rosedale M.D. in the USA, and I did not agree with his recommendations re. carbohydrates. His book only got 2 stars on Amazon when I last looked. I prefer proper medical books (not highly marketed diet books)… e.g. like I read W.F. Ganong’s physiology and anatomy book recently, and another one Clinical Medicine by Kumar and Clark. They were nice, very well written.
Dear TAMASHA! I think Kolapatty Rao has a LOT of medical knowledge he is not an endocrinology specialist, however he HAS a LOT of medical knowledge that is a FACT! He is an accountant but his entire family are medical doctors in USA, India, and other places – when growing up he read all their medical books and his family also got irritated when he tried to talk medical speak to them – that is understandable doctors hate it when non-doctors try to talk medical speak. But he IS knowledgeable in medicine – just NOT to a specialist level – just to the level of a junior doctor which is impressive for a NON doctor I would say.
Dear Max-
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
@ Sharell and Tamasha:
My apologies for offending your sensibilities. However, I still stand by what I said. With the exception of the few who have to deal with thyroid problems or are extremely endomorphic; being fat is a manifesation of gluttony, sloth and crass consumerism.
I don’t make fun of people who are handicapped in any way because what happened to them is either an accident or something beyond their control. Alcoholism and obesity are not.
And by the way I don’t know where you got that information, but I don’t ‘work in the fitness industry’. I coach Olympic weightlifting, thats a sport, not an industry (not in this world, at least).
You coach olympic weightlifters? *WOW* Dude, please tell me your website, I would love to read your advice, hints and tips etc. I love anything to do with body building, power, endurance, strength training etc – awesome stuff man. Do you have a blog or website Abdullah?
@Abdullah K-
The reasons for obesity are complex & still largely unknown. Thyroid tests are woefully unreliable & terribly flawed, insulin & beta cell receptor irregularities unfathomed, estrogen & androgen ratios are not well understood either. Body weight is not a good biomarker of overall health. I’ve met ‘normal’ weight individuals whose blood lipids, blood pressure & fasting glucoses are awful, I’ve met ‘obese’ individuals whom are in perfect health.
Judge & you shall be judged.
Until I have all the evidence before me I certainly wouldn’t be so foolish as to stigmatize all obese persons as gluttonous, slothful & crassly consumeristic.
What sort of doctor would that make me if I judged patients like you do?
A CRAPPY ONE prone to diagnose patients based on some ill founded paradigm.
Even as a COACH of Olympic weightlifting I would think you would be interested in promoting a healthy lifestyle NOT stigmatizing individuals based on their body weight.
KEY TERMS:
- Fasting Glucose
- Thyroid
- Insulin & Beta Cell
- Estrogen & Androgen
- Blood Lipids
- Blood Pressure
Right I am on a mission to learn as much as I can about why people become fat, and how they can become skinny.
Dupree ,
You know that you can become a very successful and popular teacher.You have an interesting approach to the complex subjects.I am serious.
Thank you Mohit. In life I have found the best way to learn something is to try and teach it either to myself or other beginners. As a beginner trying to teach, one usually is able to use simple language and get the point across without complexity. Once one becomes an expert, it is harder to be simple I guess?
I disagree Dupree. I have found that you have to be truly knowledgeable and an expert on a subject to articulate a complex issues in simple terms. It takes a novice to complicate things.
@ Maximillian Winner
I am afraid, I don’t have a blog or site in English at the moment. If I *ever* get around to writing one, I’ll let you know. As of now, a good place for you to start off would be Mark Rippetoe’s program Starting Strength. Get a good coach to perfect your form, practice regularly and eat well, thats all there is to it. If it is not a part of your job, keep away from bodybuilding – it messes up your health in the long term.
Being fit is no rocket science, all one has to do is exercise well, pay a little more attention to the food they eat and have a disciplined lifestyle. It is a tragedy that common sense is buried under piles of flawed ‘medical research’ and apologetic gimmicks done by doctors funded by the multi-billion dollar food, drugs and fitness industry.
Chances are, these ‘normal’ weight individuals are ‘skinny fat’ people with poor diet and a bad lifestyle (which would explain the poor blood glucose and BP levels). And the ‘obese’ individuals who enjoy ‘perfect health’ now are unfit and headed towards a joint pains, diabetes and a host of other obesity related ailments.
Indeed. However, if I had your ‘insight’, I’d have ended up a CRAPPY coach whose athletes perform poorly for their weight classes because of some “complex & still largely unknown reasons” not yet unfathomed by American doctors.
I always promote a healthy lifestyle and being fat is NOT healthy.
@Abdullah-
I’m really SURPRISED you wrote this-
‘However, if I had your ‘insight’, I’d have ended up a CRAPPY coach whose athletes perform poorly for their weight classes because of some “complex & still largely unknown reasons” not yet unfathomed by American doctors.’
I thought you were more intelligent than the other males on this blog.
Oh well.
The problem with COACHES and TRAINERS and people who deal with ATHLETES is that y’all deal with primarily HEALTHY PEOPLE.
As a physician I deal with primarily UNHEALTHY PEOPLE.
Whether these ‘unhealthy’ folks are ‘unhealthy’ due to poor lifestyle choices OR other underlying causes cannot simply be determined by body weight.
Being ‘FIT’ as you define it does indeed include more than ‘exercising well, paying a little more attention to the food they eat and having a disciplined lifestyle for a LOT of people.
I’m sure you realize Mr Abdullah a person weighing 90kgs may be thin, fat, or average based on a number of other factors-height, muscle mass, fat mass, water weight, densely mineralized skeleton etc.
I am a 5’10″, 90kg, 45 yr old female with 24% body fat as determined by DXA. Bone densitometry has revealed that my skeleton alone weighs 48kgs, making the density of my bones equivalent to a woman that is 26 yrs old.
Am I fat? by most weight charts & BMI I am indeed obese- although my 24% body fat says otherwise, ‘obesity’ in women usually starts at 30% body fat.
I can’t believe you wrote this-
‘obese’ individuals who enjoy ‘perfect health’ now are unfit and headed towards a joint pains, diabetes and a host of other obesity related ailments.’
Sorry, obesity MAY be a ‘risk factor’ for diabetes & possibly joint pains but I can assure you that 40% of my diabetic patients are average to underweight, & 50% of my patients with joint pains are average to thin also. CORRELATION does not equal CAUSATION. Another example- 90% of my diabetic patients have brown eyes, am I to assume brown eyes cause diabetes? Be very careful, diabetes may look like one disease to the uneducated but it’s really a multiple disease state which is why it is so difficult to treat.
Then you wrote-
‘I always promote a healthy lifestyle and being fat is NOT healthy.’
I’m sorry Mr Abdullah stigmatizing individuals due to being fat or unhealthy is NOT PROMOTING A HEALTHY LIFESTYLE. I
It’s NASTY, unhelpful & BIGOTED.
HA HA HA HA HA “my diabetic patients have brown eyes, am I to assume brown eyes cause diabetes?” That was a funny statement I am LAUGHING OUT LOUD SO FUNNY
Yeah Abdullah, TAMASHA! is correct when she said that “average to underweight” people can be diabetic – and India has a LOT of skinny diabetics unfortunately. Diabetes is higher in India–according to WHO World Health Org. it is 17m cases in USA and 31m cases in India (yr 2000 stats). I was shocked when I saw this. I always thought USA was capital of Diabetes until I saw the stats.
Maybe if Indians reproduced more with people OTHER than just Indians it would expand the gene pool and they would be healthier. And if some groups around the world STOPED marrying their OWN COUSINS it would also make the gene pool healthier.
Lesson to ALL Indians – just because you are GUJARATI does NOT mean you should ONLY marry GUJARATI just to keep mummy and daddy happy. Just because you are TAMIL descendent does NOT mean only marry TAMIL ok. Just because you wear TURBAN does NOT mean only marry SIKH SINGU-JI.
PLEASE start marrying OTHER people ONLY and stop trying to make your mummy daddy happy because you are all RUINING the world’s genes and making doctors’ lives misery by causing preventable problems. ENOUGH INDIAN BREEDING PLEASE. PLEASE start being OPEN MINDED and MIXING your genes with white people and chinese people and japan ok.
I am fed up of so many fellow Indians acting like monkeys only dating and marrying INDIANS just to keep mummy daddy happy.
I liked a GUJARATI girl with a small nose (not the big nose one) and she did NOT want to know me because I AM NOT GUJARATI and her mummy daddy ONLY wanted GUJARATI boy for marriage. I THOUGHT she is a stupid fool for inbreeding her genes like this – she is now most probably married to a distant relation for being such a stubborn idiot. Nowadays I am thinking of ONLY marrying a NON INDIAN to prevent my offspring’s genes being DAMAGED by INDIAN mummy daddy pleasing shaadi practices.
ALL INDIANS PLEASE MAKE SHAADI WITH NON INDIANS FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR CHILDREN AND THE WORLD. Look what happened to our Jewish friends – they now have to be tested for TAY SACHS disease. BUT NOW MANY JEWS like other people who are NOT JEWS also. MANY INDIANS are acting like monkeys by only marrying INDIANS and I am FED UP of INDIAS caste mentality and SIKH ONLY WANTING SIKH and GUJARATI ONLY WANTING GUJARATI for GOD sake be more open minded ok my INDIANS PLEASE!
YOUR GENES NEED HELP! SO PLEASE STOP marrying people of your same LANGUAGE AND GEO-REGION just to make mummy daddy happy. YOUR mummy daddy will be disappointed when YOU and YOUR SPOUSE produce a three headed alien with disease so THINK before you be narrow minded and keep rejecting outside people who may have STRONG genes.
INDIA YOU REALLY NEED GENE HELP!
INDIA you are acting like foolish clown in circus YOU ALL need to help your genes NOW! You have produced ONE BILLION people – how many are mixed race 0.000001%? Are you MAD? Are you mixing your genes enough? NO YOU ARE NOT! WHY? Just to please your mummy daddy? WHAT IS THE POINT? Mummy daddy will NOT live forever and YOU and YOUR SPOUSE WILL have to sweep up the MESS you made with your damaged offspring. SO PLEASE ENOUGH BREEDING ONLY WITH INDIANS and start dating white people and chinese, and japanese and others. You have been given the INTERNET and TECHNOLOGY and US INDIANS EXCEL at technology and IT yet you are all making it go to waste and NOT using the internet to date white people, instead you are only dating INDIANS WHY? I am very annoyed at you India for not educating your village people to marry outside people.
WARNING to all IDIOTS who MARRY THEIR OWN COUSINS – you are IMBECILES and should be locked away for damaging our society with your FILTHY dirty practices. You are behaving like inbreeding ants, rats, or cockroaches like a parasite. ARE YOU SO DIRTY MINDED – WHY? THIS IS DISGUSTING AND FILTHY YOU ignorant rats. STOP MARRYING your cousins NOW! You should be arrested for damage to the worlds’ genes. This makes me so angry when I hear of filthy rats marrying their own cousins – YUCK! GET A LIFE YOU MORONS and marry someone else. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS? It is so HORRIBLE and FILTHY!
I agree, the world is a big place. Why be stuck in a narrow minded mentality. There’s not a enough love in this world. We need to spread the love — spread it far and wide!!
Sharell Aunty we need MORE people like you and Mr. Sharell uncle in the world and more bloggs like this one. When I first came across this blog and read your story about marrying Mr. Sharell uncle I was SO HAPPY that people are MIXING THEIR GENES and not marrying ONLY ONE TYPE! My friend at uni wanted to marry his own cousin from Pakistan and I SLAPPED his face VERY HARD with a HARD “DISHUM!” SLAP and LUCKILY now he has married someone with totally different genes OUTSIDE his family. I am so PROUD of myself for saving his offspring from PERMANENT GENE DAMAGE. He has never thanked me and we hardly speak now, but I know that GOD uncle saw my GOOD DEED and is happy with what I did. Just one slap to my friend’s face has saved his entire family race -think about that!
Sharell Aunty, I think you will be VERY PLEASED to know that I use YOUR BLOG as a teaching EXAMPLE to all my INDIAN friends to educate them on how to MIX their genes and prevent gene damage from INDIAN ONLY SHAADI marriage.
I have now educated over TEN INDIAN friends of mine to date blondes, brunettes, and jews, and african, and chinese and japanese and pacific islanders etc. I have shown them the world map and the world health organisation statistics on damaged gene diseases. Before they only wanted to please mummy daddy with INDIAN ONLY people, now they are being more open minded.
YOUR BLOG IS NOW HELPING THE WORLDS GENES – JUST IMAGINE THAT AUNTY!!! THIS BLOG is the EPITOME of MIXING AND MATCHING – you should set up an OFFSHOOT website for MIXING MATCHING DATING AND MARRIAGE – please do this for the sake of world’s gene health!!!
ROCK ON AUNTY JI!
I’m glad you’re doing your bit too!
In my view, this “stick with your own kind” mentality is a huge problem in this world , especially with all the migration going on here and there, to and from countries everywhere. People still don’t understand and appreciate other cultures,and they don’t want to integrate. It just builds resentment and tension — which all comes from fear and lack of knowledge. If we’d all just blend, then everyone would get along so much better, as we’d all understand each other so much better.
@ TAMASHA
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I am some genius. I am not, I am just another imbecilic and pig headed Ruskie meathead who, by a stroke of luck (and helpful little elves), gets his work done.
You’re barking up the wrong bush, Tamasha. I never argued about body weight, but on being fat. I am a ‘heavy’ person myself, 107 kg at 202 cm (¬ 6′ 8″) which is 12 kg over the ideal weight. However an 12.4% BF level (DEXA) says that I am far from being fat. BMI is used only by doctors and ‘weight loss’ clinics; in my area of work, it holds very little relevance.
During my service in Dagestan, I was shot at the abdomen and leg by Chechen militia. After spending months in hospital followed by a year of convalescing (read lazing around) in Goa, my waistline started to show signs of expanding. Howevera, I chose to beat it and won. I have also seen a lot of others use my methods and get fighting fit themselves. Hence, I am NOT going to pretend that for the average person, being fat is like having a migrane. If THAT makes me an unhelpful, bigoted nasty, I can live with it. Peace!
@Abdullah K-
In case you forgot this is the statement that makes you an unhelpful, bigoted NASTY-
@ TAMASHA!
Sorry to butt in Tamasha, but is there anyone who actually likes fat people? (Except in circuses)
Yep, there’s NO EXCUSES for that sort of assininity,
NONE what so ever.
NO denying THAT statement was NASTY…UNHELPFUL and unabashedly BIGOTED.
HATEFUL.
HEINOUS.
DESPICABLE.
Who ever compared being FAT to a migraine anyway?
How does saying NASTY things to or about an obese person help them?
Please explain as this AMERICAN doctor (why it was necessary to bring up my nationality is beyond me also) how being nasty to a fat person helps them?
As my father used to always say-
‘You can’t hate people for their own good’
@ TAMASHA
That statement was a drunken light hearted dig, Tamasha. I didn’t know you were an American, but thanks for mentioning, it explains a lot. In my culture, it is normal to make digs or joke about fat people.
@ Maximillian Winner
No, I have had no Punjabi/Pakistani genes. My family tree has been a mix of Serbs, Copts and Rus. My father was probably the first in his family tree to ‘spread his seed’ outside the strictly endogamic Coptic Orthodox community of Goa.
Oh Serbs and Russians are very tall – that explains it yes. I thought Punjabi because Sikhs are also very tall and become even taller when they wear a turban. Oh you are from Goa? Goa is such an awesome place – I was there recently and heard that song Maria Pitache by Remo Fernandez and that is now my favourite song – so upbeat – so awesome – so Goan.
I do NOT like fish though – they smell and keep looking at me which puts me off eating them. I do not understand how people can eat such creatures especially the ugly ones like MONK FISH it looked like a scary monster. I also do not understand why people eat bottom feeders like shrimp and prawns and crabs – that is like eating land equivalent of cockroach and spider and ant.
For the simple reason that lobsters and prawns are tasty. people do eat termites, have guys chasing flying termites during the rainy season! I could never eat it though.
But now i can eat raw squid, Sushi and Sashimi , frog legs and even octopus. There ia huge scope of vegetarian food also from the sea in the form of sea weed. Koreans do make use of the sea weed in thier food.
You are TALLER than ANTHONY ROBBINS! *WOW* AND you are tall enough to play in the NBA National Basketball Leagues. Are you Indian / Pakistani or MIXED race? Are you North Indian like Punjabi? Somewhere in your gene line someone must have been CLEVER ENOUGH to MIX their genes with NON INDIANS you see. For the rest of us Indians who have NOT mixed genes there is no hope we will turn into cabbage.
Wow! I just looked this up-
‘Marriages between first and second cousins nevertheless account for over 10% of marriages worldwide.They are particularly common in the Middle East, where in some nations they account for over half of all marriages.’
Well, that explains a lot.
WHAAAAAAT? 10 PERCENT! and HALF in some places????? THIS IS DISGUSTING! This should be 100% illegal. In middle east it is illegal to kiss in public in some places, yet it is ok to marry a cousin? WHAT THE HECK is going on in this world. I want to leave planet earth NOW! STOP THE PLANET, OPEN THE DOORS AND LET ME OFF!
Get this-
‘Jammu and Kashmir is the only Indian state with a Muslim majority, with a Muslim consanguinity rate of 40%, while at the other extreme Haryana, though its population is 17% Muslim, has a Muslim consanguinity rate of only 1%.’
My poor little inbred Kashmiri husband.
And this-
In 2005, BBC News reported estimates that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins, and that British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with recessive disorders than the general population. This prompted calls from Labour MP Ann Cryer for an end to the practice of cousin marriage. Local doctors in Ms Cryer’s constituency estimate that three quarters of marriages in the Pakistani community are between first cousins. Ms. Cryer said, “As we address problems of smoking, drinking, obesity, we say it’s a public health issue, and therefore we all have to get involved with it in persuading people to adopt a different lifestyle. … I think the same should be applied to this problem in the Asian community. They must adopt a different lifestyle. … They must look outside the family for husbands and wives for their young people.”
Get me outta here!!!!
@ Maximillian Winner:
I just read your comment on your diet experiments. Most of what I’d have suggested is already talked about by Tamasha. I’d add a few variations, however.
To understand what kind of nutrition your body needs, read up on body types – ectomorphic, endomorphic and mesomorphic. Find out which body type you fit in, so that you can plan your diet and training accordingly.
Start lifting weights to gain muscle and strength (and increase your metabolic rate). Concentrate on compound lifts like squats, bench presses, deadlifts and overhead presses. Concentrate on your form and progressively increase your lifting weight. Lift no more than 3 days a week.
Do high intensity cardio for 15-20 minutes, twice a week. Look up High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT). Never overdo it though, or you wouldn’t end up burning muscle instead of fat.
Eat what you have been eating since childhood. Avoid refined foods and stick to whole (unprocessed) foods. Add protein to your diet in the form of whole milk, meat, eggs, etc. Drink a lot of water. Avoid soya and soy products.
And STAY away from steroids or fancy diets. Maintain an active lifestyle.
Thanks so much Abdullah and TAMASHA! for the advice. Well Abdullah, I have been training 7 days a week for 60 mins a day and maybe this is too much as you suggest only 3 days of weights.
What I have been doing is as follows:
1) 5am – 6am 500 marine push ups (the type of pushups that your palms are directly under your shoulders and elbows – not the wide grip push ups).
2) Then in the evening I do 100 pull ups, and 100 handstand pushups (where you do a handstand against a wall and push your whole body up and down in a straight line).
I have not been lifting weights just doing bodyweight exercises. I heard that I should not do machine weights only free weights is this good?
My diet is usually porridge oats wholegrain + semi-skimmed milk in the morning. Then in afternoon I will eat either chicken and wholegrain bread, or beans on wholegrain toast.
In the evening I will eat maybe wholegrain pasta and peas / beans. For snacks I eat maybe a banana or some nuts like peanuts and pistachio nuts / almonds with some raisins.
I also sometimes make 6-egg-white omelettes and I never eat the yellow – only rarely.
I have always found it VERY difficult to put on weight and for many years I looked like Mahatma Gandhi like a stick man. I want to put on more muscle.
My stats are as follows: waist: 23.5 inches. Chest: 42 inches. Arms around biceps and triceps are only puny 12.5 inches – 13 inches. Legs are VERY PUNY and stick thin – around thighs my legs are only 18 inches like a stick man. So maybe I am an ECTOMORPH??? My fat % is 5% to 8% year round but I wish it was 3%. So I would like to build out my shoulders, back, and V-shape lats but find it very hard to build muscle. I would NEVER touch steroids. Yes I heard that soya is bad for males and makes estrogen levels increase.
Thanks dude.
I am mainly vegetarian these days and so any suggestions should really only be beans and bread or eggs and milk etc. Cheers.
I am not sure, this is the place to talk about training. As a baseline, you should ease out on the bodyweight exercises and join a gym/club with a good coach on powerlifting. As for eating, eat what you have been used to, don’t drastically alter your diet. If you do join a gym, ask your trainer for diet recommendations. And make sure your trainer is male.
My mother keeps shouting on the web cam to eat more rice. If I have not cooked Rice and curry, the meal is incomplete for some reason, according to her.
I have come to realize, how traditions really affect health wise too. If you go to any rustic ceremony, you can see men eating mountains of rice, with each course of their 5 course meal!
Once these folks used to hard manual labor in the agricultural fields and needed high carb diet to make them stand through the sun and do heavy manual work in the sun. Most of them get proteins from daals, which are not really rich source of protein.
Meat, eggs typically are for special days and not really part of the regular diet.
My mom does not understand the meaning of low carb diet and other friends at work would complain that eating so much of lean meat is not good! My argument that boiled chicken is actually a diet food, somehow does not register with my Indian colleagues.
One can hear difficult times when my parents or their parents were growing up. There was scarcity of food and paddy was considered as something within reach of the rich well to do people.
the story of India is that history repeats itself, the riches of India were always meant for few communities and families. Most of them had tough cyclic life of shortage and abundance.
Indians have evolved with metabolic system that tends to store for the lean days. This is how Indians have genetically evolved.
And in the modern world of better access to resources and high carb, high fat diet coupled with Indian genes of storing, (I can somehow relate that to the great Indian “Saving” habit as well), its really become a nightmarish scenario. Indians have high propensity of heart disease, even with clean vegetarian habits.
And this is another example where traditions are hurting, a case why things should change with environment.
Dear V5(e)h,
You hit the NAIL on the HEAD dude buddy dude you said “Indians have evolved with metabolic system that tends to store for the lean days. This is how Indians have genetically evolved.”
SO PLEASE be a good world citizen and EDUCATE our fellow foolish INDIANS to MIX their genes with OTHER people – white, chinese, japanese, french, swiss, nordic, italian, brazilian etc. As an INDIAN it is YOUR DUTY buddy to help STOP this INDIAN mummy daddy pleasing shaadi marriage practices. PLEASE EDUCATE your INDIAN friends to NOT marry INDIANS and to marry NON INDIANS ONLY otherwise INDIA will end up being a damaged country of POT-BELLIED, SKIINY-FAT, DISEASE-RIDDEN, MOUSTACHE-WEARING, one-leg-standing, head shaking, dot-headed citizens instead of healthy people. You must do this to help protect the world’s genes man ok. PLEASE OK.
@veeeeh-
‘Indians have high propensity of heart disease, even with clean vegetarian habits.’
Unfortunately the Indian ‘clean vegetarian habits’ usually include FRYING the vegetables in oil/fat til they’re unrecognizable.
I do wonder though what kind of rice most Indians ate ‘way back when’, I bet it had more fiber (like brown rice) than the white rice preferred today.
Most peoples of the world have evolved through famines and lean cyclic times, that’s why there have always been ‘fatter’ people to survive these times of scarce calories.
@ Tamasha
I agree Tamasha, oil is a necessary evil to dissolve fat solutble vitamins in the veggies, perhaps that why integral part of the Indian cooking.
I do hear stories about olden days in the rustic parts of the world where i come from. Some of the stories are very interesting.
We had three branches of the warrior caste from where I come from – One branch or sub caste was body guards and guards at the palace, the other regulr fighting soldiers in the army and third one was supposed to inflitrate enemy land to steal cattle and destroy crops with intention of hurting other king’s economy.
But when British came, these people were suddenly jobless and British also saw them as a threat, for the class I came from was specialized in plundering. They were driven to forests and areas where they could do the job they knew – Rob people, merchants and steal.
Some of them did venture into agriculture but they were forced into geographical areas which were not conducive for agriculture. And british were quick to classify them as criminal castes with every male member going to the police station in the night to sleep.
I still hear the stories from old timers as to how they still used to rob goats and merchants. Their life was tough and they actually ate things which they would never in the present world – like field rats, foxes to supplement for diet. In due course thier apperance too had changed.
I understand that food habits were totally different from what we eat today. Most of the vegetables which are critically important for indian food actually came into india with europeans like Potato and tomato – both with origin in the American continent.
I have heard of rice species of different colors – like gray rice. There were no rice mills, so i don’t assume people to be eating processed rice. it sure must have been fibre rich.
Like many things our food habits has also changed drastically by outside. Ask any woman to make a curry with tomato – she will protest LOUDLY. And it is recent arrival on the indian sub continent actually.
I heard that this is also why the chinese, thai, and others eat rats, and octopus and beetles and insects because the tradition started during times of famine. THEY MAKE BEAR GRYLLS PROUD! Every time I walk past a Chinese restaurant I am amazed at what I see in the window, hanging. It is like a zoo with so many animals I never saw before. I also heard they eat cats and dogs in some places from my Korean (SOUTH) friend.
I have learnt from the elders that they would any animal including cat but still would not touch cow and dog. Westerners might find it strange though.
About korean food, I would say its one of the healthiest food i have come across. They do breed one species of dog for eating and dog meat is a delicacy in south East Asia and China. However interaction with west has changed the attitude towards dog meat eating in the China.
I think there were two distinct directions human evolution took. Early human group that migrated out of the Africa relied heavily on the sea food and even the migration pattern was along the coastal line. Most of the land where they inhabited is under the sea now.
This were the earliest settlers in the South East asia and china.
The group that went to Central Asia and evolved to the colder fluctuating climate was another group, trapped in that location due to the ice age. I think this group had evolved Enzymes to digest milk.
The group which took the coastal route never evolved genes to make lactase and are lactose intolerant.
They still rely heavily on the sea for the food – Koreans and Japanese. In the human evolution Fish eating was a big milestone that helped us evolve.
@veeeh-
Food is culture, what people will & won’t eat is just culture.
I’m used to eating ‘California’ style vegetables that are still crunchy, my Kashmiri family complains unless the vegies are cooked to mush. Sometimes I compromise like tonite I steamed the cauliflower & stirred it into the sabzi curry I made at the last minute.
I’ll bet the wheat/grains used by most Indians 100 years ago was much more fibrous also.
My mom’s family have all been Dutch dairymen for as far back as 1100′s and then some. They prefer cheese and butter to any sort of meat. Doesn’t seem to bother their health any. Although I have to say they are a tad inbred.
Sigh, I miss the fresh cheese, butter and milk from my uncle’s farms. I guess that’s why the smell of cow poo doesn’t bother me any.
@ Tamasha
I agree that food is culture. The food does reflect the deep social psyche too.
Indian veggie handling is more iriented towards blending flavors. It somehow transcends in the society as well, which has a core attitude of blending at the cost of indiavidual distinctiveness.
At the same time, in the west, veggie needs to retain its texture, look, natural taste. I am not suprised that Individualism transcends as the core value in the westrn society.
If there is another ice age then skinny Mahatma Gandhi stick insect runts like me will be wiped out and obese people will be laughing and surviving. I think Indians have high heart disease because of their narrow minded marriage mentality also. Indians’ gene pool is becoming stagnated and stale – you MUST start mixing with non-Indians IMMEDIATELY or you may all end up like mash potato with gooey genes. ALSO Indian’s eat the most DISGUSTING sweets on earth like GULAB JAMUN, JALAIBEE, SOAN PAPDI, HABSHI HALWA – that is totally deep fried ghee and sugar – YUCK!
“ALSO Indian’s eat the most DISGUSTING sweets on earth like GULAB JAMUN, JALAIBEE, SOAN PAPDI, HABSHI HALWA – that is totally deep fried ghee and sugar – YUCK!”
Ha Ha!
South Indian sweets are worse than North Indian sweets. At least N.I Sweets have some milk sweets which I like..like Badham Burfies etc..You know the ones where they put thin silver and gold sheets on top.
I
OH MY GOSH I HATE those silver coated sweets – the first time I got one of those sweets I started PEELING the silver off thinking the packaging got stuck on the TOP and people started LAUGHING at me. I HATE Indian sweets so much it makes me feel sick and bloated, and leaves a sickly sweet taste in my mouth.
I also hate boiled MILK taste of INDIA. I wish INDIA purifies the COW and makes pasteurised milk so that DISGUSTING BOILED taste will disappear. My TONGUE TASTE BUDS are too fussy to be able to live and breed in INDIA.
I agree! Why do people want to eat silver??
The only Indian sweet I like is gulab jaman. Which is great for me because I don’t have to worry about becoming a fatty! Ha.
@ Maximillian Winner
Serbs probably, Russians, depends. Russia is a huge country, so there is a wide variance of heights, ethnicity, size and colour. There are tall Russians, short Russians and all Russians in between.
As for fish, you either like fish or you don’t. Personally, I am rather partial to freshly caught fish, something pretty much impossible to find in Delhi.
@ TAMASHA
Europeans have spices and use them, especially Mediterraneans and Slavs. But yes, unlike Indians we don’t use so much of it that the actual taste and aroma of the food is covered.
@Abdullah
i would agree as i have tasted greek and turkish food. They don’t let the spice flavor overwhelm the natural taste of the meat or vegetables.
I would like to COMPLAIN and make a GLOBAL COMPLAINT TO ALL INDIANS IMMEDIATELY! To ALL my fellow INDIANS please STOP STINKING OUT THE PLANET with your smelly food. I was sitting on a budget airplane flight few months ago and two INDIANS came walking towards me and I WAS PRAYING TO GOD that they did NOT sit next to me. THEY SAW ME AND smiled at me as I am a fellow Indian, I immediately AVOIDED eye contact (I felt really BAD for doing this) and I PRAYED TO GOD that they would NOT sit next to me because I KNEW 100% that they would be SMELLING of FENUGREEK, GARLIC, ONION, CURRY LEAF, HING / ASAFOETIDA, METHI, and BODY ODOR.
I was ALSO WORRIED that if they sat next to me the white people would think that I WAS SMELLING instead of THEM. Luckily they DID NOT sit next to me, but UNFORTUNATELY sat behind me and kept BREATHING THEIR FUMES onto me from behind.
The two WHITE women came and sat beside me, and I was thinking that they will think that I AM SMELLING like an ARMPIT. I was so unhappy the WHOLE FLIGHT that the white women thought I was smelling and the INDIANS behind me were stinking the WHOLE plane out.
PLEASE STOP MAKING THE WORLD SMELLY. Same goes for Italians, and Chinese, and also Brits with their BEEF etc.
SMELLY FOOD is making me unhappy. I do NOT like smelly food that is smelling like the armpit of a sweaty person.
1) PLEASE STOP SWEATING.
2) PLEASE STOP SMELLING.
THANK YOU.
Whenever I visit my parents at Christmas or holidays they get annoyed with my for complaining that INDIAN cooking SMELLS. I am very angry at INDIAN COOKING for making the world smell. AL GORE is barking up the wrong TREE trying to lower CO2 emissions and CARBON FOOTPRINT. Instead Al Gore should be trying to LOWER INDIAN FOOD PRINT by reducing INDIAN COOKING EMISSIONS. There should be a Indian Cooking SMELL REDUCTION TRUST set up to combat INDIAN SMELL POLLUTION of the WORLD. I HATE INDIAN COOKING SMELL. There needs to be URGENT SOLUTION to INDIAN COOKING SMELL POLLUTION! PLEASE HELP! USE ARMPIT SPRAY DAILY (OR HOURLY) and REDUCE use of GARLIC and ONION and HING and METHI. Think of other people before eating such food – it is NOT nice to make people think that INDIANS only smell like this – I am fed UP!
HA HA HA HA HA ..
I think the purpose of your post has been completed , i.e. to get a laughter.. just have a bath baby .. because smells doesn’t come from onion , heeng , curry-patta or anything but because of dirty habbits of not taking showers .. and I have heard a rumor that ‘Frenchmen’ don’t take a shower daily … is that correct.. any french men here.. No offense , just want to get a clarification..
I shower TWO TIMES a day because of exercise smell. I do NOT eat garlic, onion, hing, asafoetida, methi, fenugreek, or curry leaf. They have SMELL chemicals that seep out of the pours in the SKIN – this is 100% FACT! INDIANS are DIRTY SMELLY people who eat this food. I think I am MINORITY CLEAN SMELLING INDIAN who AVOIDS this food. MY PARENTS GET FURIOUS with me when I visit them because I keep making FUN of their INDIAN COOKING – I have forced them to use HIGH POWER EXTRACTOR FAN when I visit them on HOLIDAY and CHRISTMAS otherwise my clothes and suitcase will smell of this disgusting food smell.
YOU can have 100000 SHOWERS or BATH a day and INDIAN cooking smell will come back and make you SMELLY and RUIN your chances with the WOMEN because women to NOT like BAD breath or ARMPIT smell.
WHITE people are thinking we all SMELL like armpits – is this what you want? Is this the IMAGE you want to give to the world about us INDIANS? PLEASE – come on yarr! I am NOT trying to be funny as you think – I am NOT making any JOKE – I am REALLY UPSET about INDIAN COOKING SMELL. It is giving me MIGRAINE HEADACHES EVERYDAY!
Eating the following food will make you UNHEALTHY (I am NOT a doctor and I do not know if it is TRUE but I think it is TRUE):
1) FENUGREEK
2) GARLIC
3) ONION
4) CURRY LEAF
5) HING / ASAFOETIDA
6) METHI
I think it is IMPORTANT to AVOID ALL the above foods IMMEDIATELY in order to be healthy and HAPPY!
Slutwalk to SlimTalk !
I agree. Given that Indians can be rather cruel to their fellow human beings and stray animals, the idea of them being vegetarians out of kindness doesn’t fly. It sounds more hip to say, “I care about animals” than something like “My religion forbids it; I don’t have a mind of my own so I just do what my religion tells me to”.
@tamasha!, abdullah K
Actually Vegetarianism is no worse for individual health and, more importantly, better for nature/farmland and a sustainable lifestyle. It has little to do with “poor animals” either.
Did you know it takes 10x more water, 16x more grain, 11x more fuel etc. to produce equivalent amount of meat vs vegetables? Apply that to all the shortages in the world. Here’s another – “The world must create five billion vegans in the next several decades, or triple its total farm output without using more land.” Read the wikipedia/peta articles on environmental vegetarianism.
The *only* reason not to adopt it is tastebuds/not-food-I-grew-up-with, which have an INERTIA of its own in any culture, and thus, is *hard* to overcome even for the conscientious. Killing animals, developing a cultural taste for meat, was a very easy route for human societies to take! But thankfully this was indoctrinated as a religious taboo, which shows the wisdom of the ancient brahmins and the interconnect between nature, religion, culture (cuisine) and the individual – a common theme in Hinduism.
Don’t try to be too clever by half by poking fun at religion, hypocrisy of Indians etc. and phrasing arguments to make us sound like tree-hugging weaklings – they don’t invalidate vegetarianism for one. If belief that you’ll “go to hell” for eating meat makes people respect Earth, their future, then by all means… As science catches up with Hinduism, people will realize that all these recurrent problems and solutions were revealed to us a while back. Sadly Indians have been entrusted to communicate
China and India face particular problems, since as people become rich they like to eat (more) meat, but our culture & cuisine could have overcome that trap. But the mocking of Hinduism and the atheist culture indoctrinated by the marxist/fabian socialist Congress sewer-thrash, not to mention McGlobullization have taken their toll and Indians are rejecting this great aspect of their culture to satisfy their greedy, pig-like impulses.
And they will pay, as Karma dictates.
Once upon a time I used to believe on those PETA stats. However, a little personal observation and reasoning made me realise that those stats are farce, propagated by vegan activists for moral superiority. Plant eating is far more destructive on the earth’s ecosystem as compared to meat eating. It takes more than thrice the quantity of vegetarian food to provide as much nutrition as beef, chicken or other meat. Not to mention, grain based diets require much larger portions since they are low in fats and complete proteins, hence less filling.
Religions, brahmanical or otherwise are rarely about wisdom but more about exploitation of the masses by planned and elaborate set of dogmas, rituals and myths. The societies where religion is the most influental, also happen to be societies that are the most backward and messed up. India and the Islamic world would be good examples.
No! Don’t ever make fun of PETA – they use attractive naked models and actresses to campaign their cause – just look at ALICIA SILVERSTONE in their advertisements she would make me want to be VEGAN 24 X 7 X 365! Vegans have stronger bones than meat munchers. ALso COWS produce more polluting gasses from their enormous bottoms than plants do from theirs.
@ Mr Singh & gps-
‘Actually Vegetarianism is no worse for individual health and, more importantly, better for nature/farmland and a sustainable lifestyle. It has little to do with “poor animals” either.’
That’s what I said in my earlier post with one exception-
DO NOT BELIEVE THE VEGAN PROPAGANDA!!!!
Veganism is not the cure for all your ills & societie’s problems.
To eat properly as a ‘vegan’ is not easy.
I have seen many vegans hospitalized with strokes & embolisms caused by too much vitamin K (in leafy greens), with liver damage due to too much vitamin A, and severe anemia & neurological problems due to lack of vitamin B12 & dietary iron.
The healthiest vegetarian diet is one that contains eggs & dietary products.
Vegetarianism is no worse for individual health?
I beg to differ, vegetarianism will keep you alive but not necessarily well nourished. Nutritional anemia is one of India’s major public health problems. Women bear the brunt of this in India, nutritional anemia causes severe maternal & fetal complications.
ALSO I 100000% AGREE with you that religions are about EXPLOITATION and I think they are all a load of MAN MADE NONSENSE like fairy stories. People who are brainwashed should have a shower and wash their clothes instead of just washing their brain 24X7X365 wasting their lives away and spewing nonsense to everyone else trying to make them to convert to their thinking. LIVE AND LET LIVE is best way.
New York calling Sluts….err Slutwalk!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/nypd-to-women-of-south-park-dont-wear-shorts-or-dresses_n_989539.html
Sounds like some New York cops pissed the feminazi hornet’s nest, so to speak. I have to agree with the cops though, women have to dress sensibly and not come off as a vulnerable target if they are in a place where crimes are so high.
Slut-Walk too slutty for Bangalore and the moral police it seems!
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/cities/bengaluru/bengaluru-slutwalk-halted-moral-police-back-626
*not condoning*
Even NRIs who are unable to compete in the open dating market and fail to attract partners to them on their own merit always have the option of falling back on arranged marriage, so I don’t think the traditionalists need to fear that arranged marriage will be totally wiped out. There will always be a section of society, due to shyness, awkwardness, unattractiveness, etc who will need the support of arranged marriage. Let them have it. I have no objection. I support it.
Regarding crimes like sexual harrassement and others, “The sheer size of the population makes the absolute number sizable even is its single digit percentage.”
YES. That is true.
Veeeh, which part of India are you from and where do you currently reside?
@Wiki
And its from my personal experience that the cultural setting for a growing Indian boy is different. He does not know the difference between fling and commitment.
Thats why I am of the opine that the average Indian man would still need the institution of the arranged marriage as he endangers himself getting off the track.
Speaking from the personal experience, got involved with an older neighbor girl who was in the process of separation with her husband. I wanted to be her savior and guided by stupid ideals of self sacrifice. Its good that I did not had sex with her or derailed my education to settle down and commit.
@Wiki
I am a hindicized Tamilian who is now staying at New England.
Good, let Brazil take the world’s poor, hungry, unwanted, unassimilatable, backwards, whatever that crazy Statue of Liberty qoute is.
And let Brazil take all the medieval minded Muslims that have flooded Europe and promise to destroy it.
Viva Brazil!
It is going to be more like West Europeans running away to Brazil while Islamists take over their countries. Just like what happened to the Portuguese empire during the rise of Arab ‘golden age’.
@Gospodin Abdullah
This comment of yours reminds me of “Ratlines”…Have you heard of that? It’s a route (Spain to South America) Nazi’s used to escape to America (specially South America), after World War II.
BTW, here’s the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II)
I hope for the future safety and progress of the planet that these “Islamists” do not take over. I hope the European people get their heads straight and stop them.
@ wikitheeks:
You try convincing those European people. Most of them are drunk on American style liberalism and feminisation of the society.
Many European countries are far more liberal and far more feminist than the US. They are not drunk on US anything. They are simple too kind and tolerant of hostile ideologies. Its almost as if they hate their own selves so they are allowing Islamists to punish them. They need to stand up and have some self pride.
Maybe I’m a stalker!
So , you are assuming that 20 Crore people of UP , 11 Crore people of Bihar and 3 crore people of Haryana are living a life where only Females they are usually in touch with are ‘aunties’ and ‘sisters’ and a guy is murdered for talking to someone’s sisters and daughter ?
If what you said is even a stereotype then too , I and hundreds of my friends from these states wouldn’t have been alive today for not only talking , but also dating and actually marrying someone’s sisters.And no , they all are not from big cities but small towns of UP , Bihar and Haryana.
Where do you get these ‘news’ from ? And which ‘Newspaper’ you have subscribed with lately ?Seriously it’s just enough to digest whatever you are saying here.
@wikitheeks-
Yes, California & Europe (with the exception of Germany) is broke.
You tell me? Who’s going to pick the fruit/vegetables? Who’s going to do all the hard labor that Californians & Europeans won’t do? Meth addicted white trash? Hardly.
California has tried restricting the illegal immigration of migrant farm workers in the past, I’ve seen crops rotting in the field due to this limited thinking.
@ wikitheeks – “Who’s going to keep subsidizing these people?”
The Chinese?
“These people”?
Really?
WOW!
Tamasha, good job.
This is one thing I agree with you on. Latino-Americans are hard workers with good values who do the jobs others won’t!
Tamasha, its not that working class Black and White Americans (who need jobs) won’t do these jobs, its that the greedy CEOs of these companies are not willing to pay them decent wages. Illegal Mexicans border crossers are willing to work off the books more than 12 hours per day for under minimum wage with no vacations. This is almost akin to slavery. The horrible slave-like conditions these people work under have been documented. This is not sustainable and it is certainly not humane.
With fair wages and fair hours there are plenty of White and Black “trash” as you call them or non-trash poor and lower income Americans who would indeed work these jobs.
In fact, it used to be common for students to make some money by picking fruit but not anymore when these companies can hire border jumpers and treat them like slaves.
Whats more, unskilled White and especially Black laborers are losing day to day jobs like roofing and other manual work to illegal border jumpers who are willing to work off the books for less.
Its these companies that need to come clean and do it legally by hiring their fellow Americans.
By the way, you said, “Geez, growing up in California I’ve heard this story soooo many times. I can remember as a little girl in the 70′s (when dinosaurs & disco roamed the Earth) Spanish was banned in schools because THE MEXICANS ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER!!!”
36 years has passed from 1975 til now. Alot has changed in California because the tide was not checked back then.
Many Californians are leaving the state they and their parents have grown up in because so much of it has turned into a third world like ghetto, complete with drugs and gangs.
What was once the most progressive and hip state in the US is changing drastically.
But you are living in Nepal, so what would you care?
Manny, elliptical and treadmills are for old women, effeminate gay men and old desi uncles.
If you are red blooded male with even a drop of testosterone in you, you should be exerting yourself outside in manly labor.
No wonder you can’t get laid!
@wikitheeks-
As I stated I grew up in California & am quite aware of the conditions migrant farm workers endure. I still own property in Sonoma. I left California in 2004.
Quite honestly ‘greedy CEO’s’ paying minimum wage to US citizens to do farm work still qualifies as ‘slave labor’ in my book.
Yes, California has changed. Look at photos of fruit pickers 80 yrs ago & California & they’ll be mostly white. In the 1970′s California grew 70 percent of the fruits & vegetables in the US.
Now 80 percent of fruit & vegetables are imported from outside the US.
Outsourcing?
If all the illegal aliens working in the US were to stop working & go back where they came from the US economy would collapse.
Who’s going to pay for ‘welfare’ & healthcare for them & all their dependents?
Manny’s US taxpayer $$$$”S!!!!
“If all the illegal aliens working in the US were to stop working & go back where they came from the US economy would collapse.”
If they went back in one day, one week or one month, yes. Not if over the course of about 2 years they were simply not hired and American citizens were gradually hired more and more and paid fair wages.
I don’t own a treadmill nor an elliptical. You have no sense of humor. You are a bore!
No sense of humor!?!?! I’m the one getting accused of “obscenity” here by stiff, uptight, anal-retentive uncle-jis whenever I make flirtatious jokes about pink chaddis and cougaring.
Raaaaarrrrrrrrr!!!!!
Now bend over and take your spanking!
Yes.. and we are all impressed!
Veeh,
I thought I would put in a few comments since as I can see now that you have put in a good effort at bashing of societal control and the system of arranged marriage.
Societal control is not all that bad and in India it has its own way of instilling duties and responsibilities in men and women. It would be foolish to think very profound and assume that everybody is enlightened and would know her and his responsibilities.Societal control encompasses a wide area and some of it may not be good like child marriages which has now become a rarity and with the passage of time may well be an evil of the past.But the pros outweigh the cons and can be well established by observations in the interiors of India.In times when the children neglect their aged parents ,society in the form of neighbours and relatives pour their jibes with good effect forcing the children into acting towards their aged parents.It also puts effective brakes in ensuring fidelity in marriages by controlling to an extent straying and cheating.Even in the much maligned north western provinces in Pakistan where the major populace is seen as backwards by the rest,societal control condemned as outrageous has ensured low crime and a almost zero intervention by the law.
In urban India where nobody has time for the neighbour with the hectic pace of living ,societal control diminishes in its effectiveness than in the interiors .It is established that the crime rate is higher
in the urbanized areas.
Casteism in the eyes of the intellectuals may be bad.The brahmins may be at the receiving end now and they may be ridiculed for the excesses committed by their predecessors hundreds of years ago.But many of their customs and traditions are some of the finest in terms of puritanical human values .
I once again maintain that profound thinking should not come in the way of accepting the ground reality that not all men and women are enlightened.Societal control has a way of balancing and reminding them of their duties and responsibilities.
You need to go see a Psychiatrist to deal with your personal issues.
Hey Vikas
There are three dimensions to what you are discussing. And those are Religious morality and code of conduct, Legal control systems to enforce law in the civic society and societal controls as a tool for few to control majority.
Its not the societal control that designs the moral system of an individual, its his experience, interaction with family, people around him, stories and fables that he listens to shapes his moral core. Most of the kids have the basic foundation of their personality and core morality foundation laid by the age of 7 or 8.
Societal control is not meant for shaping the moral compass as its predominantly used for adults. Its a control mechanism and its the fact that Man is a social animal. The complexities that group dynamics throw at makes men unequal, just like any other animal in the nature.
You gave me example of Brahmin culture , lets take the south Indian context. They have evolved a magnificent culture based on appreciation of arts and knowledge.
They managed to do it by the means of societal control and insulate the rest of the population from acquiring that knowledge or access to that life style. They enforced apartheid in the society, whereby they lived in separate neighborhoods called Agraharam where others were not allowed. they protected their asset of knowledge by bringing societal controls , defining sins and virtues, mainly to retain their control on the society.
We had a great tradition of Navy, ship building, metallurgy, ceramic technology and so much advanced that East India company learnt lots from Indian industry before destroying its backbone.
Who do you think was growing at the cost of strategic growth of the whole region, despite having the technology, other communities were not allowed to build in it or interact with other cultures and bring new perspectives.
Societal control intention is not the social justice but control of minority on the majority. And this has been done in every country and still happens.
I have myself said that caste system was good in the paradigm, when Indian economy was based on the self sufficient economies. Caste system ensured that this system does not break and creates surplus. It was the major reason for Indian being the developed world for most of the human history.
I have also argued that Arranged marriage is necessary in the current context because the huge population and competition, makes it impossible for men and women to spend time on the courtship rituals, for they have an opportunity cost involved with it. In that time they can focus on getting 100 marks in the subjects like history!
We never had an environment like china from Ancient times, there anyone could become a civil servant, if he cleared exams. That system had divisions but allowed anyone extra ordinary to grow.
Indian societal control systems, never did.
I am tolerant of the societal controls as long as they give a guideline for a good life and ensures some predictability in otherwise orderly chaos that prevails in my country.
But the moment anyone starts enforcing it and expects others to comply, it ceases to be any different from communism, fascism, talibanism as they are also societal controls with emphasis on enforcement.
Instead the civic society should let the legal system , the job of enforcement.
Societal control systems should be the reference guide, but that should not stop anyone marrying out of caste or doing things that actually does not infringe on others freedom in any way.
Most of the societal controls are designed to rob the freedom of the weak majority.
However, society can create conducive environment for traditions to still remain alive.
@veeh,
My viewpoints may be influenced by personal experiences.But this has also been one of the mainstreams of Indian culture without me having to generalize it.
Yes ,the true colour of the extended family comes forth in a crisis.And this institution is under strains with the modern times.
As for you bringing up the culture of bee hive and nest to relate with the ongoing discussion,I have to state that it is you who is away from the normal.My views and thoughts are borne out of the normal norms in the traditional Indian society.Now in the times that we live in,I see around me more who proceed with the not normal thinking of the society.The men in this small group are open to marrying women who are older than them and likewise go forth with actions which are not societal norms.They can see nothing wrong with their thoughts and with the times that we live in they are growing in numbers with not so good repercussions!
veeh,
Societal control,code of conduct ,morality are most of the times inter mangled and its hard to define or categorize which is which and what is what? Individual perspectives vary in their conceptualization.
It is not possible for the slow legal control system in our land to intervene in a micro level such as obligating filial duties to a son in a timely and effective manner.
As for arranged marriages,in our context it created a stronger bond in partners to stick together through thick and skin than going apart in the frivolous western context of ” we had nothing in common ” or ”we just grew apart”!
Man is a social animal and arranged marriages has a way of bonding and interlinking many in its group dynamics.It has a way of activating the individual of him or her’s participation in the group.
It may be noted that the individual may have been inactive and unawares in group dynamics until the stimuli of an arranged marriage .
This is also more advantageous than the modern
love communions where the extended family is bereft .The actors in the communion have an emptiness without the extended hand of the outer family and this is a vacuum. The satisfaction and joy which one gets when the extended family lends each other a helping hand in traditional activities is hard to describe to
someone whose group may have been limited to
a few.These simple joys and satisfaction give something which no amount of knowledge or awareness can compensate atleast to me!
Many of the traditions in the Indian context are embedded in the caste system and the possibility arises of it dying when someone marries outside of a caste.Added to it is the ruptures arising in the extended family context.No thinking man can dispute the freedom of an individual in choosing his partner irrespective of the societal patterns of caste and creed.But sometimes this freedom is misplaced in the larger context .The individual may be ignorant of the larger consequences which his or her choice leads to.In this situation the society
cannot be entirely blamed for interfering with the choice of the individual since it may look for the benefits in a much wider context.Finally it falls upon the individual to seek his or her own part and role in the wider context . It would be beneficial if he can rise above his insistence on his individual freedom for the culture and usefulness of the group.But love is a powerful emotion and its hard to argue with the parties effected.It is a difficult topic and discussions and viewpoints vary!
@ Vikas
Your view points are borne out of your personal experiences where you got into the prescribed route and got support of both the families when they allied together.
But don’t generalize this experience as it varies from person to person. There are always two sides of the coin and there is a reason why system of joint family is crumbling fast.
The true color of this extended family comes to fore at the time of any crisis and the scale of it.
Some actually prefer company of friends and community over the so called extended family.
Finally, it does not make sense to expect a thinking man to behave like a bee or an ant and live for the hive or nest.
For those who don’t want to think and take comfort in being the part of the nest and bee and do their duty towards the hive or bee, they have made their choice.
Likewise those who want to go free and form their own group and world, should be allowed to.
The choice lies with the individual not the nest or the hive.
@Vikas-
I am married to one of those men whom ‘are open to marrying women who are older than them and likewise go forth with actions which are not societal norms.’
I think veeeeh is being quite generous in his description of the Indian joint family as a ‘nest’ or ‘hive’.
There are several problems with the ‘normal’ Indian joint family I can see as an ‘outsider’ marrying in. My husband is the youngest of & children & the 5th of 5 sons.
The ‘normal’ Indian joint family promotes ‘freeloading’. I’m fine with supporting my husband’s widowed mother financially & I have employed my husband’s autistic brother but is it really necessary for my husband & I to support his ABLE BODIED LAZY ASS brothers too? I mean their entire status is based on being the 1st, 2nd & 3rd born males in the family?Why can’t his brothers contribute equally to their own Mom’s finances?
The ‘normal’ Indian joint family promotes a ‘pecking order’ not based on merit but birth order. My husband’s family tried for 2 years to pull the ‘choti bahu’ crap on me. There are still some members of his family that I refuse to acknowledge due to this rude behavior. I won’t pay the bills & be treated like crap, although I have seen 2 of my other sister in laws endure this unequal treatment.
The ‘normal’ Indian joint family does not teach it’s members to think for themselves. Indians are not being taught to think for themselves and be independently responsible for their choices. I believe this in reflected in all aspects of Indian society, from lack of civic pride to the election of uneffective officials. I watched the family gardener in Kashmir watering the flowers in the rain once, I asked him why he was watering the flowers when it was already raining. He replied he didn’t know, he never thought about it before.
Tamas ,
Being a ‘Kashmiri’ citizen how do you qualify to comment of Indian Joint families ?
What ever you have described may be true for Kashmiri Muslim Join-Family but its simply not true for general Indian joint family.
Just to enlighten you in this field I would just give some Examples of Business Empire which started as “Joint-Family-Business”
1.Tata
2.Reliance
3.Shapor ji-Palon ji Group
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-
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Infinity !
To say that persons in joint families are not taught about their individual responsibility is a gross generalization.I invite you to come at my place and will take you to meet progressive , successful joint families.I don’t know why Veeeh is so miffed at Joint-Family structure.Must have been really hurt by that system but shouldn’t judge by his personal experiences.
@Mohit-
You yourself said Kashmir is a part of India. Are you going back on that now?
There aren’t too many Tatas or Ambanis around are their?
I still see Kashmir as part of India but you don’t seem to accept that.And that is why you are always flaunting your non-existent ‘KASHMIRI CITIZENSHIP” even after telling you umpteen times that that is not citizenship but a “Domicile Certificate” to differentiate between original residence of Indian Kashmir from the rest of India because of that evil article 370.But these legal matter are too much for you to grasp , I think.
But to win some argument , we have to apply a strategy which , in Hindi , is called ..
“Miyan ki jooti , Miyan ki Chaand’
That is what I did to you. Did it hurt ?
@Mohit-
Nope didn’t hurt a bit!
Loving that article 370.
@Vikas
And who gets to define what is normal and what is not normal?
Who gets to define what is right and what is wrong?
The entire premise of Indian society is based on creation of a unquestionable system , which is aimed at fostering family systems and breed.
The reason that certain creatures live in social groups, is to breed and propagate their gene pool. They beat the competition and use the numbers for survival.
Traditions, customs, rituals, religion, governance are all man made institutions and born out of the social interaction between humans in the social group.
Any man made institution can’t be greater than the man himself.
Higher societal control indicates low development and is reflection of absence of legal control systems.
Why should it bother anyone, if other is marrying an older woman, other caste woman, other religion woman, other race woman?
Why is that you are measuring their marital bliss in terms of your stereotype perceptions and values!
How do you know that living in a society that has evolved structure to facilitate breeding is better than the one where the social structure encourages humans to do look beyond breeding.
Why do you think top management in any organization is paid high! Its because they take decision, and along with that decision, they also own the fruits or responsibility of failure.
Everyone is responsible for their decision.
We make traditions and society and had we maintained the traditions over the ages, we probably would still be living in the caves.
Change is the only constant.
@Manny-
To whom are you addressing this psychiatric recommendation?
@Vikas-
I’ve noticed the same ‘freeloading’ behavior in many Indian joint families.
As far as discussing my ‘family’ I haven’t posted anyone’s name & so I haven’t defamed anyone.
Sharell has shared some of her family ‘dirt’ as well such as pregnancies out of wedlock, yet you do not attack her. Discussing & sharing one’s family problems in a somewhat anonymous forum such as this is perfectly acceptable to Westerners. Often issues can be resolved by getting other’s input & ideas.
Do I consider myself a part of my husband’s family?
No. Quite honestly I wouldn’t trust them with five dollars, I’ve seen them rip each other off for less than that. I’ll support my husband’s widowed mother & I’ll support my husband’s autistic brother. I won’t put up with the malicious gossip & ‘choti bahu’ treatment I’ve received from the rest of the family.
It’s to Veeeh. Looks like the comments have all gone outta control again!
@Sharell
Oh yes, poor guys are trying very hard to hurt me and use the weak spot they have managed to find.
Perhaps it does show what kind of human beings they are! I am glad he is not asking me to spit on my parent’s face again.
I made a mistake of responding to some of the comments. I will go back to the ignore strategy.
They must be really smart or dumb to make judgement about other people and also their mental state. So no more response to the gang of four – Manny, Mohit, Nik and Prithvi. They do display high level camaraderie here.
@veeeeh-
Ah don’t mind this bunch of losers. Nik/prithvi are the same warped individual using different screen names. Manny’s some frustrated short guy that even thinks of sex in lefty/righty terms. Mohit just parrots off a bunch of crap he heard from his parents.
@Veeeh.
I do not take pot shot at your personal maladies of life. All of us have a share of those in our lives.
Your “weak spot” as you put it is using those maladies to extrapolate that to the rest of India and to beat up on Indian culture.
Many of us from the same culture don’t suffer those maladies…although we may have a different set of issues of our own which we try to manage it and take responsibilities for it as its our free will to take charge of our own lives.
Veeeeh !
This is my Intentional post to you because you never ever FORGET to show yourself as VICTIM and SAINTLY and a very righteous creature which you are not !
When was the last time I responded to any of your post ? Then why the hell do you call me “NAMES” and club me in some fictitious group of ‘Fantastic Four’ ?
When did I “TRIED” to hurt you ?
It was you who poked your nose once again and call the name of my Blog a RACIST one ! I didn’t say anything to you but just asked what did you find ‘Racist’ in the name of my Blog.?
You always take my name and you always take an oath not to respond to me.But EACH and EVERY time its YOU , YOU and YOU who come and take a shot at me and my posts.
And when Nik and Many gave you a taste of your medicine , you come CRYING and blame the fictitious gang and actually mention ME , ‘THE MOHIT’ who has nothing to do with a Childish Guy like you … do hell with you and you Bullshit “societal-parental-individual’ theory ! Keep it with you and don’t ever try to talk to me.
And one thing more , I visited your blog once and was very disappointed to see just one post there.Why don’t use your precious knowledge there and do some self-discovery …instead of Crying here like a baby !
Sorry Sharell , I had to say it. I was being falsely implicated in something in which I was not involved.
Tamas ,
“Mohit just parrots off a bunch of crap he heard from his parents.”
I just hope this is the last time you abuse my Parents.I am serious !
@Manny
Its my choice and decision to be not to be a part of a marriage union that did not work out for me. There are many loved ones around me who have done arranged marriage and are very happy with their lives.
You comments and vicious attacks using this aspect of life is recorded in the comments board. Your preconceived notion that my thought process is entirely affected by this incident is false, In fact I consider myself as liberated as I don’t have to live in a loveless life for the rest of my life.
I have learnt to take small stumbling blocks on my path of life with same enthusiasm as I take those events that bring joy and smile. I have lived long to see the cyclic nature of the life and is affair that life “changes”.
And it my decision alone and I take the responsibility for it. And I have spoken in favor of arranged marriage again and again, as a favorable institution in in the Indian context.
But at the same time, I have argued for the societal controls to be loosened for those who select their own mates.
I did not knew that Indian Culture meant “Arranged marriage institution”
If you so intolerant of people who do not do arranged marriage, what is your agenda on an intercultural blog? I am curious!
There you go again Veeeh. Cry me a river with your persecution complex.
Its none of my business what is in your personal life. But if you are going to bring that into a public domain/Blog and BS about your Theory on social affairs and culture of India and Indians., It becomes the business for the rest of us to answer.
Deal with it. You wussy chicken!
I am dealing with it, very well.
You don’t have to show your class again and again. Its better that you leave me alone and don’t expect any response from me in future.
And keep shouting from your lungs about you left right forces conspiring to bring India down.
Take care. This would be my last response to you and your kinds who OWN Indian culture. I still would call you names and degrade my self.
@Tamasha
The ‘normal’ Indian joint family promotes ‘freeloading’………Why did you have to say this?
You have used your immediate Kashmiri family to generalize it as a normal Indian joint thing.There are elements everywhere just as freeloaders in the Western welfare.
It is highly CONDEMNABLE how you thrash your
own family in a public blog like this if at all you consider them as your family .I have lost all respect for you!
Even I have issues inside my family but I never let them out even to my closest friends and relatives.I revere my family institution and will not want to have anything to do with anyone disrespecting their own family !
@ veeeeh – You haven’t dealt with anything well here. You go on long diatribes that no one reads and occasionally lash out at some “gang” that doesn’t even exist. You are a textbook case of a paranoid individual.
@ Tamasha – You are another mentally disturbed individual who takes pride in Kashmiri separatism. I think no one has pointed out the ugly truth of Kaashmiri separatism here so I will. It is really psychological malady and a form of racism. I will explain. Kashmiris try to refute the fact that nearly all of them were Hindu Brahmins who converted to Islam. They also try to hide the fact their version of Islam, which is closely linked with Sufism, has tremendous Hindu influence. Their daily rituals and overall culture have immense Hindu influence as well. The racism is virulent amongst them. I remember spending some time with Kashmiris with a Marathi friend of mine. They were very cordial to us (at least to our faces), and welcomed us as brothers. But the situation turned ugly when a few Tamil friends of mine arrived. They quickly started talking about “black Indians”, “dravidians” and “dirty kalas”. I have described myself here before, and my Marathi friend was very light skinned. The Tamils were very dark though. This attitude is common among Kashmiris unfortunately. They will shout about seperatism, but much of it is based on Pakistani interference and Kashmiri racism.
Hi TAMASHA, I have no idea, but perhaps you could explain to me what eve teasing is? What is it?
We live in the age of Google, grasshopper.
Eve teasing is a euphemism used in India and sometimes Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal for public sexual harassment, street harassment or molestation of women by men. Considered a problem related to delinquency in youth it is a form of sexual aggression that ranges in severity from sexually suggestive remarks, brushing in public places, catcalls, to outright groping. Sometimes it is referred to with a coy suggestion of innocent fun, making it appear innocuous with no resulting liability on the part of the perpetrator. Many feminists and voluntary organizations have suggested that the expression be replaced by a more appropriate term. According to them, considering the semantic roots of the term in Indian English, eve-teasing refers to the temptress nature of Eve, placing responsibility on the woman as a tease, as though the aggressive response of the males was normal rather than criminal.Eve-teasing has been a notoriously difficult crime to prove, as perpetrators often devise ingenious ways to attack women, even though many feminist writers term it as “little rapes”, and usually occur in public places, streets, and public transport.
Oh that is terrible! Men who do all that stuff above and wolf whistle at women just come across like desperate morons who do not have any social skills whatsoever. Men who do the things described above are not only clueless but really are horrid pests to society. Not to stereotype, but I notice a lot of builders on building sites do this. What do these clueless morons think the women is going to do – fall in love with them because they can whistle like a steam train or kettle – stupid fellows.
@Max-
I wish I could tell you ONE really great book or study that would explain ALL in regards to obesity.
I stopped eating carbs when my mom became an insulin dependent diabetic, it was easier just to cook the same meals for both of us.
There is NO ONE DIET that is best for everyone.
I was involved in a study at Stanford Univ. where a group of students were fed the same daily diet of 1,400 calories in rice, potatoes & lentils. The students were carefully monitored & given 45 minutes of cardiovascular exercise daily. After 1 month about 60 percent lost weight on this diet & exercise regimen, about 40 percent GAINED weight on this regimen.
Genetic testing was also a part of this study & genetic markers have been located that determine if you are one of these people who gain weight on carbs.
The test is available commercially at inherenthealth.com.
Throw in such modern atrocities like high fructose corn syrup & other super modified super sweetening mega carbs & you’re set up for catastrophe!
Anyhow, the calories in calories out model goes all to hell when you throw in hormones like insulin, androgens, estrogens, thyroid etc. Our knowledge of these factors is so limited it’s almost laughable.
Gosh it sounds much more complicated than I thought TAMASHA! I have tried eating very low carbohydrate diets and ended up constantly tired, sleepy, and lethargic, and I even passed out and fell down once and I couldn’t even exercise, but when I ate carbohydrates again, I became energetic. I tried high protein and ended up constipated, and high fat was tasty but made me feel sick. I also tried starving myself for 48 hours and did not drink even water for the first 24 hours and become irritable and just slept all day. I have experimented everything on myself in order to understand what makes people fat and thin. I guess others have different bodies and needs and require different diets as you mentioned. When calories in does not = calories out with all those hormones how do anorexics become skeletal-would limiting calories work even just a little bit for obese people? Or maybe they would just burn their bodies away and remain with fat only. When I was a child I never used to see this many fat people, it has been increasing every year – something is making it happen – or maybe it is because the worlds population has doubled, which means statistically obesity will be more prevalent? And I agree all food manufacturers should stop dumping sugar and salt into everything and taking fibre away they are poisoning us all.
@Max-
All you can do is experiment until you find what works for you.
Here’s what I’ve found works for me-
No dieting- just avoid carbs, I was one of the study participants that GAINED weight on potatoes, rice & lentils. Plus my mom was diabetic so why not ante up the odds by following diabetic recommendations anyway.
Watch out for liquid carbs!!! (these are my downfall) no sodas, no sugary drinks that I love like chai, liquid carbs go down fast & are uptaken FASTER.
Increase & maintain MUSCLE MASS- Lift weights & build muscle! Muscle cells burn more calories than fat cells no matter what kind of exercise you do, even resting. So more muscle cells means I can eat more- YAY!
Drink at least 1 liter of water daily- keep those ketones moving!
I have to agree that all the super sugary highly processed weird processed fatty salty crap they put in food nowadays probably does aggravate obesity.
Also the supersize portions you see in the US (buckets of pepsi, king size candy bars, satchels of fries, triple patty with extra cheese, mayo & bacon burgers on a high fructose corn syrup infused bun) ain’t helping the situation either.
Every time I go back to the US I am appalled at the food choices, it just keeps getting WORSE.
That being said the causes of obesity are many & not all known. There have always been fat people & there will always be fat people.
I had to look up the word “consanguinity” it means blood relation…oh don’t use complex words with me I get confused
It is a good thing you married a Kashmiri then to help educate Indians to stop inbreeding within their own country. 40% is too high. The world needs more people like you TAMASHA! AUNTY and SHARELL AUNTY.
I also heard that BBC report and was UTTERLY DISGUSTED that over HALF of UK pakistanis are inbreeding. At university I had to force one of my friends who was of Pakistani descent to NOT marry his cousin. I ridiculed him for weeks and called him an inbreeding FREAK and said he will produce some creature from the Lord of the Rings or Narnia unless he stopped the inbreeding immediately. Luckily he took my advice and married someone from UK instead.
I don’t know how all this inbreeding behaviour started even animals do not behave in such a che che dirty way. Luckily my parents come from totally different parts of India and speak different languages but that is not good enough.
My MOM FREAKED OUT when I said I am going to marry a white girl many years ago. After a decade of telling my mom I am NOT marrying an INDIAN she has finally said ok marry whoever you want but don’t complain when you get divorced. THIS IS EXACTLY THE STUPIDITY that really GETS ME MAD and that is preventing people from marrying who they like and just end up marrying who makes their parents happy.
LUCKILY I AM A STUBBORN DUDE – I am putting GENES FIRST and mummy daddy happiness re. marriage second!
I hope other Indians do the same.
@veeeeh-
I’ve often wondered if the ‘cow culture’ found in northern Europe (such as my mom’s Dutch dairy family) isn’t somehow distantly linked to the Indian ‘cow culture’.
I understand that Hindu’s don’t eat cows out of respect for the animal but it makes sense not to kill an animal whom is more valuable alive providing milk & dung. Societies that use animals for milk can wean their children off human breast milk earlier (allowing women to get pregnant again sooner) and of course milk is an easily digested & renewable form of protein.
I’ve also noticed and seen studies that persons with ancestry from ‘cow cultures’ (specifically Scandinavians & northern Europeans) are often ‘cow dependent’ requiring B vitamin supplementation if they don’t eat dairy products. I am one such ‘cow dependent’ northern European descent person. Even if I eat a ton of vegies with B vitamins & meat, I get deficient if I don’t eat dairy.
By the way on of the best sources of B vitamins is cow pee, I use it to feed the plants in my garden.
@ Tamasha
Indians used to eat Beef and all kinds of meat. It was reaction to that sheer violance towards others creatures that reactively resulted in the birth of religions like Jainism and Budhism.
Hinduism countered by making beef eating sinful.
I have always heard elders say that don’t eat curd if you eat fish. I wonder why both should be imiscible, even though curd can be used for marinating fish!
I always wonder , whats the reason for this tradition!
I would not like to go in the ABCD of genetic study but can only say that still there is no concrete proof of Aryans coming from Central Asia or Belonging to the Germanic tribe.
It is also noteworthy to mention that some accusation related to me and ‘Aryans’ have been contradictory in nature.One one hand calling India a “The Land of Aryans” is deemed racist and in the same breathe they also accuse us of taking pride in the ‘fact’ that North-Indians belonged to some master race in Europe.I mean if we don’t believe in AIT then obviously we consider our self natives of this country.Then from where the question of relation with Master-Race arise ?
1. People don’t want us to claim that we belong here.And if we do they say it ‘Racism’.
2.At the same time they accuse us of taking pride in that ‘unproved fact’ that we came from Europe/Central Asia which we didn’t.
That is complete non-sense.Its like Head is yours and Tail is also yours.Its not done.People have to take a stand.
Tamasha , I was seeing a documentary on discovery where they told that Buddha was fond of Chicken and it was his last fish before he died.
Apart from that , I was not able to find any reference to check the credibility of this claim.As this happened thousands years ago and no irrefutable records available , we may not get the truth ever.
Jews do not eat milk and chicken or is it milk and beef at the same meal – someone told me that doing so prevents protein being absorbed but I am not a nutrition & dietetics expert so maybe it is an old wives tale? I am interested also to find out why.
@veeeh-
I think the idea of not eating curd with fish originally came from the ancient principles of some foods being ‘heating’ and some foods being ‘cooling’.
My Kashmiri family goes on about this sort thing a lot.
It’s interesting the my Mom’s dutch family has a lot of the same ideas- my Dutch grandma would say not to eat fish with curd because they are both ‘cooling’ foods & you’ll get pneumonia (or some ‘cold’ related illness) be sick.
Also eating cherries with milk was a big ‘no no’ because they are both considered ‘cooling’ foods.
I still think there is a ‘cow culture’ link between some European groups & India. It’s not just a matter of eating beef but the high ‘reverance’ dairy products are given in certain parts of India & Hinduism just like in certain parts of Europe.
I mean we’re talking whole civilizations built around ‘cow products’ milk, butter, cheese, beef leather, dung, etc.
Contrast this with cultures based on sheep/goats like the Middle East or cultures built around marine products.
Actually cows originally came out of Africa (where some ‘cow cultures still exist also) -
so I guess the question may be did the people follow the cows or were the cow herded out of Africa by the people?
@Max-
Jews don’t eat cows milk or butter with beef, it is out of respect for the animal not to serve it’s meat in its own milk.
Rosh Hashanah’s coming up & I made a ‘dairy free’ recipe for an ‘Indianized’ honey apple cake to serve with the meat meals commonly served at this time for a friend’s food blog.
@ Tamasha
I would agree with you. The first wave of the human migration out of Africa happened when a group crossed the shallow water near Yemen and took the coastal route to india and beyond.
This group was marine product dependent.
But the second wave of human migration out of africa, on land, when ice age receded could have happened becuase humans followed the cow herd.
The same thing happened when first humans migrated from Asia to America, the hunters were following reindeers and ice age had opened a corridor from Asia to North America.
Another
BS story from our resident “Make up as you theoretician” that Hindu Brahmins became vegetarians on the account of Jains and Buddihists!
Pffft!
That should read ““Make up as you go BS Artist / theoretician” “
@ Tamasha
See this link, which would give you an indication of beef eating history and influence of Budhism and Jainism on the practice of beef eating. And I would expect the same voice to do projection and be vocal dissenters, as mentioned in the newspaper link.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2001/08/14/stories/13140833.htm
Articles published in ‘The Hindu’ should be the last source to refer for any fact-finding mission.If we go by what Arundhati Roy has written in the same news papaer about Anna then ANNA would seem like a tyrant , more dangerous than Taliban , more undemocratic and violent than Maoist , more corrupt than Kalmadi , Raja which is just NOT TRUE.
Actually the article doesn’t provide any concrete proof but make some ‘suggestive’ references in Vedas to conclude that Indians eat ‘beef’ , normally.To establish that Indian in present time also eat beef he gave us the example of only Kerala which is again a commie state.
Also it is NOTABLE that author actually believes in ARYAN INVASION THEORY when he says…
“A survey of ancient Indian scriptures, especially the Vedas, shows that amongst the nomadic, pastoral Aryans who settled here.”
You can see very well that he is ‘influenced’ heavily by some random theories propagated by British in the past and now very keenly adopted by anti-hindi leftists !
Theory , that animal-sacrifice prevalent in Hindu Society was the reason for creation of two religion Jainism and Buddhism is very laughable because the reasons for ‘Siddhartha’ to leave the luxuries of his palace and work for the mankind are known to the world in a very crystal-clear form and it simply doesn’t include his opposition to violence to Animal.The fact is that Buddha was a very keen meat-eater and ‘chicken’ was his favorite and last dish before he died.
Its very unlikely that in the times of Chandra Gupta Maurya , a practicing Buddha , when he literally ruled whole of present India including Pakistan and parts of Iran , Afghanistan and Myamar , Hindu-Brahmins would suddenly felt the need for making ‘Beef’ forbidden and stall ‘COW’ as mother.
The fact is that “Buddhism” in India was never in confrontation with Hinduism and why it has not been very popular in India is because it’s similarity in the belief-set which would appeal the countries in the south east Asia such as Thailand , China and Japan.
People inclined to leftist political view would always believe any theory which is even minutely endorsing the AIT and making a villain out of Brahmanical section of society.
@veeeeh & Mohit-
Buddha’s last meal was an offering from a blacksmith named Cunda. The precise contents of the Buddha’s final meal are not clear, due to variant scriptural traditions and ambiguity over the translation of certain significant terms; the Theravada tradition generally believes that the Buddha was offered some kind of pork, while the Mahayana tradition believes that the Buddha consumed some sort of truffle or other mushroom. I never even heard of Buddha’s favorite food as chicken?
Anyhow I think the dietary practices in India have evolved due to the stresses of population. Vegetarianism is far more sustainable & supportive of a large population in a temperate country than a meat based diet. The cow is such a useful animal that provides so many useful products to humans that it makes sense to restrict it’s butchering for meat. All the claims of vegetarianism being to prevent cruelty or bad karma or something untoward spiritually are just ‘smoke & mirrors’ in my opinion.
I can’t prove it but I still think the elevating of cows in India to divine stature harkens back to some nomadic ‘cow culture’ people that must have wandered into the Asian sub continent. It may have then followed that there was some sort of food shortage when all people had as a protein & fat source were milk/butter products. When all crops have failed the cow will still forage & give milk.
@ Tamasha
The theory of master race was propounded not only by certain groups in Europe, and study skewed to find the superior race evolved in the colder regions of the fair skinned and blue eyed humans who were destined to be the master race. There have numerous Europeans who twisted the evidence, like lawyers, to present their case.
Unfortunately, Europeans were not the only culprits, for there were and there are still sizable number of Indians who bask in the self glory and tacitly sanction the Aryan race theory to somehow associate themselves with the master race.
You know what this theory did in the Europe during the second world war.
Unfortunately, our genetic evolution history and journey of mankind is imprinted in the genes.
India was on the super highway of migration that started from Out of Africa.
These are the major mutation markers that are present on the human Y chromosome.
Y─ DNA Adam
Haplogroup A
BT
Haplogroup B
CT
DE
Haplogroup D
Haplogroup E
CF
Haplogroup C
Haplogroup F
Haplogroups F1-F4
Haplogroup G
IJK
Haplogroup IJ
Haplogroup I
Haplogroup J
Haplogroup K
K*
LT
Haplogroup L
Haplogroup T
MNOPS
Haplogroups K1-K4
Haplogroup M
Haplogroup NO
Haplogroup N
Haplogroup O
Haplogroup P
Haplogroup Q
Haplogroup R
Haplogroup S
Haplogroup H
In India and South Asia -Following Haplogroups are distributed, proving beyond doubt that India was located at a strategic location on the super highway of Human migration.
There are some mutations that happened within geographical location of India. These also proves the migration of people from India to the west to Europe (Romani people – with probably the youngest mutation marker)
The distribution of genetic markers are as below -
- First “out of Africa”
Haplogroup CF
Haplogroup C5
Halogroup H evolved in Pakistan
Haplogroup H evolved in India
Paragroup F found in Southern India
Halogroup G – small number in india
Halogroup H – Found mainly in the south Asia
Halogroup K1 found in Indian subcontinent
Halogroup L found in South Asia
Haplogroup O – lower frequency in south Asia
Halogroup R – Found in Europe, west Asia, Central Asia and Pakistan
haplogroup H – From India to west (Romani people)
The genetic marker R is supposed to be of the precursor of supposedly Indo European Aryan Race.
The R1A further underwent mutation and the western europe has the marker R2.
The distribution of this marker does show the migration pattern and distribution from the northwest India, Central Asia and the Europe.
But Indian subcontinent, this haplogroup is mostly concentrated in the Pakistan and North west India. Its not dense in the other part of the India, which I believe would be shock to many self proclaimed Aryans of India.
R2 genetic marker is relatively young in the human history.
You have groups with supposedly non Aryan gene marker speaking Indo European language. Language took a different evolutionary path in the babel world.
if you look at the behavior of nomads or hunter gatherers, you would see that they chase the prey or the herd.
That is how the human grew from brink of extinction to become the ruler of the planet Earth.
I agree with you about meat eating practices of Buddha. I was initially shocked to learn that Sri Lankan Budhist monks ate meat. This could be perhaps correlated to the Ashoka the great spreading his brand of Buddhism there.
Buddhism really start declining after 1500 in India.
@Veeeeh & Mohit-
I’m not sure how this thread turned to discussing Aryans or any ‘master race’ theory. I certainly didn’t bring it up.
But anyway here’s my 2 cents on the issue-
To my knowledge ‘Aryan’ is an English language loanword derived from Sanskrit ārya ( meaning ‘Noble’). The Greek words ‘aristos’ as used in the English word ‘aristocrat’ or ‘aristocracy’ has the same origin.
In scholarly usage ‘Aryan’ simply refers to Indo-Iranian languages (Indo-Aryan and Iranian), the Indo-European languages & more generally their speakers.
How the word ‘Aryan’ got perverted by the Nazis from a LINGUISTIC term to an ANTHROPOLOGICAL term denoting Nordic physical characteristics is beyond me. By the 1880s a number of linguists & anthropologists argued that the “Aryans” themselves had originated somewhere in northern Europe, which would imply that The Vedas & Hinduism started in Europe, a claim that reveals both ignorance & racism. A specific region began to crystallize when the linguist Karl Penka (Die Herkunft der Arier. Neue Beiträge zur historischen Anthropologie der europäischen Völker, 1886) popularized the idea that the “Aryans” had emerged in Scandinavia and could be identified by the distinctive Nordic characteristics of blond hair & blue eyes. The distinguished biologist Thomas Henry Huxley agreed with him, coining the term “Xanthochroi” to refer to fair-skinned Europeans (as opposed to darker Mediterranean peoples, who Huxley called “Melanochroi”).
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language states at the beginning of its definition, “Aryan, a word nowadays referring to the blond-haired, blue-eyed physical ideal of Nazi Germany, originally referred to a people who looked vastly different. Its history starts with the ancient Indo-Iranians, peoples who inhabited parts of what are now Iran, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.”
The word Iran is the Persian word for land/place of the Aryan. In present-day academia, the terms “Indo-Iranian” and “Indo-European” have, according to many, made most uses of the term ‘Aryan’ obsolete, and ‘Aryan’ is now mostly limited to its appearance in the term “Indo-Aryan” to represent (speakers of) North, West and Central Indian languages.
Northern India has a definite Iranian influence. Both linguistically & genetically. But the Iranians are not & have never been the Nordic, blue eyed, blonde haired, Germanic speakers so idealized by the Nazis & other ‘Aryan’ supremacist groups.
@veeeeh-
I think Indians just KNOW how to use spices to their best advantage as spices have been in the culture for so long.
European cuisine is sadly lacking in the spice department.
The crunchy vegies is mostly a ‘west coast’ California elitist thing I think.
My father’s Louisiana Cajun/Creole family serves vegies FRIED to mush with lots of cayenne, garlic and usually a rich cream sauce- looks terrible tastes great!
My mom’s Dutch family traditional serves vegies boiled or stewed to mush but with just butter & salt or a cheese sauce.
So crunchy vegies are a relatively ‘new’ thing.
I wonder if mushy vegies are more digestible though?
I can remember eating raw sweet corn off the cob & my grandma saying ‘You’ll catch yer death of cold gal!”
Raw corn is another ‘cooling’ food I guess.
“At the same time, in the west, veggie needs to retain its texture, look, natural taste. I am not suprised that Individualism transcends as the core value in the westrn society.”
ROFLMAO! Oh Lord Spare me! Another theory pulled out of someones arse…nal!
LOL
I have a theory (I can come up theories too..can’t I?)
Oh..nevermind!
How about Nizams and erstwhile rulers of India eating gold foiled sweets!
How else to show the wealth?
I am imagining what would the ruling species of Earth say after 50000 years , after they discover a fossilized poop, either confirm that there were huge deposits of gold that these humans consumed!
I love kesar pista kulfi!
Actually I like all kinds of kulfi.
My husband says I make the best nan khatai & malai burfi too.
Gulab jamun remind me of American donut holes, but instead if being ‘glazed’ with sugar they’re soaked in syrup.
It’s a mad world!
Have you ever wondered that why a sweet biscuit such as ‘NAN-KHATAI’ is called ‘KHATAI’ because ‘Khatai’ means ‘mango-powder’..
Kesar-Pista kulfi .. Wow .. my favorite …I think now I have to change my Gang.. who knows someday I may get a can full of Rasgullas and Malai-Barfi ..made by her ..
@Mohit-
Hmmm
I’ve never seen a nan-khatai recipe with mango powder in it. I wonder if mango powder in some combination was used in olden times in place of baking powder in nan-khatai?
I think NAN-KHATAI=NON-KHATAI .. = no mango powder ..
Nan-khatai is an Indian corruption of Persian words. The basic recipe came to Surat, Gujarat with the arrival of Parsis (Persians). There is no mango power ever used in nan-khatai.
Amit ,
You are right and now I have solved this mystery how this name got its present form.Actually ‘khatai’ in NAN-KHATAI is not the Hindi ‘khatai’ but a Persian word ‘Khat’ which means Six. And NAN means bread.. so nan khatai means a bread made up with six ingredient like wheat-flour, eggs, sugar, butter or ghee, leaven produced from toddy or grain, and almonds.
@Mohit-
NO EGGS EVER IN NAN KHATAI!!! NO NO!!!
Ghee/butter, sugar, flour, baking powder/soda, besan or rice flour, cardamom & or other spices, nuts BUT NEVER EGGS!!
Tamasha,
This is the funny thing. According to Persian records, there should be eggs in Nan-khatai, and again, accoring to Google records, nan-khatai is not Persian either. It’s from China. If you ask Chinese, they have no clue about what a Nan-khatai is.
The same can be said about any Indian thing, the things that come to India lose its origins. Now you know why my poor country is greater than your rich country!
@Amit-
I think the Persians or Chinese or whomever left out the eggs from the original nan khatai recipe to cater to the Hindu veg crowd.
Yes, that’s the first logical conclusion, that Persian or Chinese left eggs from the original recipe to serve the vegetarian Hindu population. Another conclusion is that the Parsis who is credited to have invented the Indian version of ‘nan-khatai’ named it Nan-khatai in order to attract the Mughal/Islamic crowd of India at the same time attracting Hindu crowd by eliminating eggs.
It’s much like Russell Peter’s joke: ‘Take a picture of a famous (Western brand), have that product modified or remade in (China), and sell that new pirated product in (India)’.
That’s not cheating or piracy, that’s evolution.
And out of curiosity, I bought “Nan Khatai” from the local Indian store. It has a big label “No eggs”
And I realized that its just another baked biscuit and has nothing to do with either Naan bread or Khatai taste!