Assimilating to life in a foreign country can be hard, especially when the way of life is so different. India is a prime example of this. It seems though, that there’s a common scenario as far as many foreigners who come to India are concerned. And my experience has certainly fitted into it. It goes a little like the stages of having a relationship with someone.
First, there is the falling in love stage, where everything is interesting and wonderful. Then, there comes the criticisims. And, after that (hopefully) the acceptance. Yet, there’s one crucial omission in this comparison: the longingness to belong.
Many foreigners who come to India really do want to fit in here. We go out of our way to adapt and be Indian. Yes, you could call us wannabe Indians!
Like these foreigners, I’ve gone through the stage of passionately trying to become Indian — in my dress, mannerisms and habits. Admittedly though, it was initially forced upon me. When I volunteered at the women’s centre in Kolkata, I was told I had to wear cheap salwaar kameeze to lessen the division between me and the women there, and help them feel comfortable in my presence. I sat on the floor, ate potato and rice for lunch with my fingers, and became familiar with the infamous Indian squat toilet. I was also encouraged to start learning Bengali.
Since then, I’ve learned Hindi, wrapped my own saris, visited temples, participated in pujas, cooked Indian food, and touched the feet of elders (and even my husband!). I know the etiquette for mixing with people from all levels of society, and know how to behave in traditional as well as progressive homes. My spiritual beliefs are aligned with Hinduism. And I’ve no doubt seen more of India than most Indians.
But ultimately, the majority of people will look at me and treat me as a foreigner because they view me as one (although I, of course, view myself as white Indian). And heaven forbid if I dare say anything bad about India. What right do you have? You’re NOT Indian! If you don’t like it in India, go home!
So, foreigners like me eventually give up. We think “stuff it”. We start eating what we want, dressing how we want, and doing what we want. If we’re going to be viewed as a foreigner, we might as well behave like one! I’ve come to realise my white skin gives me certain power in India, and now I know how to use it to my advantage. If something is bothering me, I know people will listen when I complain. I know they will be less likely to brush me off, or give me the run around.
But all this is leading up to a very interesting article in Open Magazine, which I was recently interviewed for. It deals with the question: is it possible to become Indian? The answer it seems, is a resounding “no”.
And perhaps, there’s a good reason for it.
© 2011, Diary of a White Indian Housewife. All rights reserved. Do not copy and reproduce text or images without permission.
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I read a great article about Five Flag Theory (or Three Flag Theory) – Wikipedia has a good article on it called “Perpetual traveler”. Many people, Instead of aiming to become Indian, British, or a US citizen, aim to become world citizens. They throw patriotism in the bin, and focus on individual sovereignty rather than serving a country. Whether this is right or wrong is debatable. It is usually the upper echelons of society that operate like this.
Some people argue that once the world is under a single sovereign government, no one will have to worry about becoming Indian, US, or British etc., it will be one brand new world – from chaos to order, a new world order. Again that is just one view point and it is also debatable.
OK this is Dupree Singh, Kolapatty Rao or Fatty Bombalatty whatever your name is this time. You behave yourself or TamashaAunty will trounce your scrawny butt again. Got it?
Ha ha ha TAMASHA you are funny good lord, are you trying to flirt? You’re not doing too well. Trounce my bottom? Excuse me? I think it should be me saying to you that you should behave! That is the worst chat up line I have ever heard in my life. Who on earth is Dupree Singh both you and sharell have called me this now.
@Max/Dupree/Kolapatty-
If Tamasha wanted to flirt with you she would.
@TAMASHA/Dupree/Kolapatty (whatever all this means) please stop…I’d rather you didn’t keep flirting or obsessing about my bottom.
@Max-
Fess up. You’re busted. TROLL.
Dear TAMASHA!,
I really do not know what you are talking about regarding being a “busted” “TROLL”. Look, if it makes you happy, I’ll be a “TROLL” and the “three billy goats gruff”. Now, really, please…enough is enough! (Rhymes).
May I have your attention please? May I have your attention please? Will the real Slim Shady please stand up? …
Hey Tamasha, do you think that who ever is behind this trio of characters (oh wait, wasn’t there one more… can’t remember its name though) should be medicated? Schizophrenia perhaps?
No no, Dupree Singh is not on earth, remember. He blasted off back out into space. Yes he did!
Oh Sharell ! Fitting in is never easy if you “look” very different. It wasn’t easy even in the 4th grade when we were kids ! Now if you look different but desirable (which you definitely are) most people will treat you kindly even though they do not feel you are one of them. If you look different but unfortunately not very desirable, then it is not going to be easy.
Personal story : Though my mother tongue is not marathi, and I come from a different religion that my husband I speak perfectly fine marathi and over the years (while we dated) even the slight accent I had while speaking marathi disappeared. Most people who don’t know I am not marathi will believe I am. However at some religious function at his house amongst the relatives, I was introduced as the girl who cannot speak and understand marathi very well… They just didn’t want to accept that I could be like one of them.
BTW, I hope you are showing up late to all events and cribbing about the maid constantly
Oh my goodness, that is crazy, those people behaving towards you like that. It really gets your point across though. And true, it is much easier to be nice to an attractive person than an unattractive one!
I must admit, I really struggle with showing up late to events — I still worry about missing out! Being on time is ingrained into me. However, if we’re just going somewhere casually, then yeah, I will often be late. Usual scenario: friend says come over early, we arrive an hour late, and friend still isn’t ready anyway!
I do crib about the maid too, because she doesn’t come when she’s supposed to and often takes advantage. Grrrr.
I don’t understand why any foreigner would expect Indians to accept them as more than guests. India is already quite divided on religions, caste, color and (Indian) languages. Ever seen how people from NE India are treated in Delhi or other parts of India? That will answer your question. They are rightfully Indians in every way yet treated as they are aliens and asserted that they don’t belong. The notion of immigration in India is non existent. So no you cannot be Indian. I don’t know why you would want to though.
Hey Shivani!
Long time! You need to post here more often! The more the merrier!
Hi Manny!! lol you remembered me
Yeah I do read the blog from time to time. Avoid posting comments because its so consuming 
But will try to post more often. Hope you are well.
Indians never came together demanding to be one country, it was a British administrative concept that then became a centralist socialist State under Nehru. Thus being Hindu and Tamilian/Kashmiri/Marathi etc. is more aligned with our individual identity than being Indian.
This primacy must be acknowledged, along with the inheritance of a people to their corner of India and their rights to enforce their culture within that space. Any commonality and camaraderie that arises between ourselves is an extension of courtesy, not an expectation, certainly not unpatriotic to act otherwise.
Just as Indians never demanded to be one country, Hindus never identified themselves as one group. Just as India is a British administrative concept, Hindu(ism) is a Mughal/Persian concept.
It’s quite an irony. If you claim that Indians or Hindus were never united, I’ll give you examples of hundreds of sub-castes spread throughout India who call themselves Brahmins and share a lot of things in common. If you claim that Indians were one country before the British concept, I’ll give you the examples of thousands sub-castes who share different beliefs, eating habits, heritage, and culture.
One can only see what he/she wants to see. Otherwise, he/she is consistently blind. The animals who are not intelligent usually have consistent vision. How consistent is your vision?
Correct !
In fact there are some instances when we try to identify our self as Indians but I have never seen or met anyone who will ask”Are you a Hindu” ?
The conversation between Indians mostly are like following !Consider that both are in foreign country.
A-Are you from India ?
B-Yes , and You ?
A-I am also from India , which place ?
B-I am from Mumbai , and you.
A-I am from Delhi very near to Mumbai ,you would have heard it , No ?
B-I know Delhi. But basically you are from ? I mean originally ?
A-Originally , I am from UP ..
B- UP ?? Where in UP ?
A- From Meerut ! My family lives there.
B- Oh really ? Actually one of my friends also belong to UP and her sister-in-law hails from Ghaziabad which is very near to Meerut.
A-Oh that’s great. I think we will have great time ahead.Btw as your name suggests are you a “Brahmin” ?
B- No , I am Baniya and you ?
A- I am a “Brahmin” .. Umm ok let’s meet again and have a dinner together someday ..
B-Yeah sure ..!
A-ok , bye
B-Bye ..
That is the essence of conversation of two Indians and you will see that Religion , especially “HINSUISM” would never form the part of a dialogue..
~ OMG, are you really from Meerut!? I passed through Meerut on the bus on the way to Haridwar and Rishikesh! One of the brides recently on Band Baja Bride was also from Meerut! (True).
But would that Brahmin really dine with the Baniya (what ever a Baniya is)?
No , I am not from meerut , smarty !
but its an ok kind of city like Bareilley , birth place of Priyanka Chopra One suggestion whenever you go to Haridwar by Road , do make it a point to stop at “Cheetal” brand of restaurant which is situated just after you cross Khatauli , a small town on the way..
What is “Band Baja and Bride” actually ? Never heard of it.Only ‘Band Baja and Barat” movie I have heard of !
“Baniya” come third in the caste hierarchy after Brahmin and Kshatriya. And they were called by Mayawati , CM , UP as ‘Tilak(Brahmin) , Taraju(Baniya) , aur Talwar(Kshatriya).. And they would happily dine with each other..
What is a Baniya ? I tell you ..Mohit Gupta is Baniya ..This is most simplistic answer I can give..
Band Baja Bride is a TV series where they give brides-to-be makeovers for their weddings. (The name is taken from Band Baja Barat). I guess it’s not the kind of show you’d be interested in.
Don’t worry, no more explanation needed about the caste system — I find it all too confusing!
The NEerners are no more treated badly than many South Indians.
NEerners are treated just like everyone else in India. Badly! If they were treated kindly and politely that would be unusual and kind of strange!
No Manny, they are treated horribly – especially the women are easy targets for sleazy men of Delhi. Besides I was just giving an example of someone who IS Indian in every way is not accepted as an Indian in a so called multicultural cosmopolitan city of modern India.
That is an exaggeration.And this is because of their distinct facial features and attire that they stands out among crowd and some ignorant people think that way.
Shivani,
I agree. I have seen plenty of discrimination between North/South/West/East Indians and not to mention between different states to know that we got an over inflated sense of self-identity running amongst us. Speaking in general of course.
If only the outsiders knew how North Indians look upon South Indians and the reverse.
Thank God for sound bytes like “Mera Bharat Mahan” and “India shining” otherwise its mostly us vrs them.
Hey, ppl currently tuned into this blog,
Want to know how the southerners treat you northies?
Well, I’ve been living in Chennai for about 5 and a 1/2 yrs. now and I’ve noticed quite a few things from these people ( tamilians in general ). First of all, a normal middle class Tamil (or a Tamil from any other social class for that matter) would nvr treat a foreigner or even northies (foreigners are considered more as a guest than other indians for obvious reasons) as alien or outsider whether they are here on a short stay or here to settle down permanently. They always make you feel like a guest and I’ve never really heard anyone being rude to Indians from other parts of Ind unless ofcouse, there is something going on between them. But otherwise, they would just nvr randomly attack ppl in the neighbourbhood for being non native. I dont know, perhaps Southies are more educated than the so called women-hating northern counterparts? And dont bother about the stereotypical depiction of northies in southern movies, we all have our stereotypes just lyk every other human on earth. U guys are always the rich businessman or another kanjus marvadi !
Most ppl in the south (Tamil Nadu for sure), will definitely treat you as a guest, be it at a shop, or someone’s house,or even the local booking office. Come here once, and you’ll truly get to know the meaning of the age old Indian mantra “Atithi devo bhava”. After all the satisfaction of the guest is equal to the satisfaction of the host
This comes from someone studying in a Chennai college for the past 1 and a 1/2 yrs. and still very much treated lyk a guest in a strict-beyond-imagination college!
guys…i noticed here in usa and in india that all people here in usa spend money in luxury cars and all..but in india why people run to get big properties or flats of 50-60million $ properties as an investment…i dnt understand the logic of buying so many houses..can any one explain me!!!
and those who think tat india is not rich we had shift here and ma dad gifted me a lamborghini here gallarado
Buying a house in an investment, buying an expensive car isn’t. A house is an asset while a car is a liability.
“Abdullah K.
Buying a house in an investment, buying an expensive car isn’t. A house is an asset while a car is a liability.”
Buying a house is an investment if you are getting a positive cash-flow out of it. If you buy a property and do not rent it out (or if the rent doesnt cover the mortgage in case you didnt buy it outright) then its a liability.
Buying a house just for the purpose of hoping to sell it in the future for higher than what you paid for, is playing the “bigger fool” game. Its not an investment.
Einstein’s world is relative. It all depends on the culture and the time/economy you are living in. Decades ago, the gold was considered an asset/investment in India. Today, it is not as true as the craze/demand for gold is not the same. But buying a land/house is still an investment in urban India as the land prices are bound to go up indefinitely.
Yeah , probably because most people owns a home in developed world and that is why market for house is not as big as in India where most people don’t own homes in Urban-India.The market is saturated in western world.But India it is always increasing and yet to reach a saturation point and never will because of always increasing population.
I think gold is still a good investment if current prices of it is any indication.It has gone from 20, 000 to 28,000 in just six month for 10 gram. That is a very healthy return.
Oooh, wonder how much my mangal sutra is worth these days!
Well , how much it weighs now ?
Mohit,
Yes gold would have been a great investment if you bought at 20,000 because we know that it has reached 28000. But going forward who knows?
JP Morgan has said that according to them, by the end of the year, gold could reach 2600$/oz (currently at 1800$/oz i believe).
but it could exactly be the peak of the gold bubble. I believe that when everyone is clamoring to buy something, its probably time to get the hell out. tech stocks aka year 2000 anyone.
If you look at 20 year chart of gold, you KNOW that gold has been a lousy investment over this period of 2 decade (last I remember, but I could have been wrong. fact check please).
Only time will tell if buying gold at 28000 is a good investment or not.
However, I do agree with most people that having some gold in the portfolio is a good thing as it serves some really good purposes. Good inflation hedge, negative correlation with stocks etc.
@Mohit-
Do most people in the developed world own a home? I wonder since the recent economic crisis so I did a little research-
Singapore has the highest rate of home ownership at 87%
Germany has the lowest rate of home ownership at 42%
The home ownership rate in the US has supposedly has held steady at 67-68% according to a survey in 2009, however over 80% of American homeowners have less than 80% equity in their homes.
That’s actually a good question for veeeeh, with all the foreclosure on homes since the economic recession started do you think the rate of home ownership has held steady at 68%? I think it would be dramatically less.
I chose to invest in platinum ingots in 2008 due to it’s commercial value over gold.
At its peak, UK home ownership was 72.5%. By 2021 it will dip to below 63.8% and in some places like London, below 50%. First time buyers are being priced out of the market and rental prices are increasing year on year.
@Mr Singh-
‘First time buyers are being priced out of the market and rental prices are increasing year on year.’
A lot of Americans are AFRAID to get back into the real estate game EVEN if they can qualify for the few mortgage loans that are available. I’m glad I sold all my houses in California in 2006.
This could be because of the volatile job market, which has created a trend of bearish thinking, and risk aversion. You’re wise to have sold. Stock markets, real estate markets, and currency markets are highly volatile, and will continue to follow a bearish trend for some months to come. The reason is because the first “bailout” related to the governments of the world bailing out industry – finance and manufacturing (e.g. AIG and GM, FANNIE MAE & FREDDIE MAC etc). However, in doing this, the government’s (US gov as well as other nations) trade deficit has increased, and has increased government debt.
To counter their increased debt, they have printed more money (quantitative easing) – this has further devalued their home currencies.
The second “bailout” occurring now relates to governments bailing out other governments – e.g. Irish government and Greek government, and more recently Italian government being bailed out.
High government debt has created high tax rates (VAT / Sales Tax increases as well as higher income tax and fuel duty). Higher taxes, wage freezes and high energy and food prices have squeezed the average person’s disposable income, thus reducing spending, which affects the sales levels of industry, which creates more job cuts etc, etc.
The only way government debt can be reduced is by increasing manufacturing and exporting. The only way this can happen is by creating a flow of capital to industry. This in turn will increase jobs, increase disposable income, and increase sales levels. The problem is that it is not only people that are highly risk averse right now, but the banks are too.
Finally, the biggest stock market crash is still pending – it all centres around the huge level of pension deficit. As people nudge towards the age of retirement, and companies are forced to pay the pensions that they are legally obliged to pay, there is going to be a major problem – no money. As most pensions are directly linked to the performance of stocks and funds many people are going to suffer even more are billions have been wiped off the value of most pensions.
As the saying goes… “THE TREND IS YOUR FRIEND” right now the trend is highly bearish and volatile best to sell and wait out the storm. As the curve turns at its trough and picks up, there will be highly lucrative buying opportunities in real estate, stocks, and currencies. Now is the time ti sit tight and ride out the storm.
@Mr Singh-
I really don’t ever plan to return to the US ever. The only piece of property I own in the US is about 40 acres of vineyard (that I inherited) leased out to a large winery. I took all my investments out of the US in 2006 also (Boy, did I pay a tonne of taxes) I seriously doubt there will be anything left of the pension plans I’ve invested in or the US Social Security system I was forced to pay into by the time I am ‘retirement age’.
If I ever have to get a ‘real job’ again I think I’ll try my luck in New Zealand of Australia’s nationalized health care service.
Very true the NHS National Health Service business model is one of the best healthcare models – and true doctors get a secure final salary pension scheme – absolutely guaranteed by the government unlike people in the private sector.
Cool that you have a vineyard and are leasing it. One thing for sure is that even though property prices are volatile, land always appreciates in value. As the world’s population keeps increasing, land becomes even more scarce.
The US government and their taxes – oh lord! Now the UK gov has started emulating their big brother across the pond and is cracking down on Swiss bank accounts to get even more tax revenue. They have started taxing the interest on swiss bank accounts belonging to UK residents. The only way to escape high tax is to renounce one’s citizenship and become a citizen of a low tax country, and stay there. Most governments want to reform legislation relating to tax havens – basically making them pointless as they will put their paws into accounts offshore and tax that money too as long as someone is a resident of their country.
What I found amusing was the founder of PayPal is planning to build his own floating COUNTRY off the coast of SanFran for tax purposes – when it is actually up and running, Uncle Sam will be knocking on the door to claim more tax revenue.
Two things are certain in life – taxes and death. And as for social security or national insurance as it is called in the UK – that is the biggest con ever invented! Most people won’t see a penny of that most probably. Soon we will be taxed a “pollution tax” for sneezing, passing wind, and burping, and a “consumption tax” for breathing. Oh I better not give them any ideas!!!
Oh god – Tamasha is going to be in our part of the world FOREVER.
Well , anything which is true for over 50% of the population ,in my view , can easily be called true for “Most”. Specially when compared to Indian where 70% population is still living on a income of 1$ per day.
A house or property hardly get depreciated in value.But the price of a car is depreciated the moment it comes out of showroom.But the prices of a home or flat is increased sometimes by two-fold the moment it is sold or allotted in case of a Government Project.
Preference pattern of Indians and American in investment is different , but to say that Americans don’t invest in house is not a fact. Remember Sub-prime Crisis which was the catalysis of world-wide recession ? That happened because of desperate Americans with a negative credit history to own a House.
60 million dollar flat ?? 6 Crore Dollars ? Means 300 Crore INR ? Where is that flat and who own it.. ?
I can give you some insights from my banking domain knowledge. The housing market is different in US and India.
In US housing market prices fluctuate in a wide range and most of the time the bull run is artificially stimulated like the sub prime loans given to create demand for housing and disbursement of loans to folks without any credit rating evaluation or capability to repay.
Housing too depreciates and typicaly buildings are depriciated on book of accounts. Any mortgage on building will be given on the basis of the depreciated assessed value of the building.
Its the land that does not depreciate.
In india real estate prices are manipulated by the politicians and the land mafia, couple this with high demand for housing and easy availability of high interest housing loans, it makes sense to invest in land and houisng in India.
I know a friend who gave 1 lakh advance to book an apartment. The price of the aprtment increased by feew lakhs, during the construction. He sold it for 22 lakhs and got himself a second hand independent house.
In India housing is a good investment option along with gold.
And US economy has been designed by the marketers for high consumption. They remind me of landlords of the villages who are so used to the lavish life style that they would borrow to lead that life style and without any means to repay it.
Americans are doing the same. They have lost competitive advantage in manufacuring, services. Only resource they have now is technology and capital. And if the trend of living lavish life style on borrowed money continues, they will soon end up like those landlords of the last generation.
Americans will not invest in housing as its prices are cyclic, unlike India where it is going up. And Americans consume, Indians don’t, they save and invest.
Its a cultural difference, created by marketers and the cultural emphasis of being less materialistic.
Veeh Uncle, I notice you have reduced your name from FIVE “E”s to only THREE “E”s this is sure sign of lazy bone behaviour you must IMMEDIATELY increase it to TEN “E”s. You sound like a very knowledgeable and smart investment banker man you sound like some sort of private equity genius – I 100% AGREE with your views on housing market in west vs India. After subprime chaos, houses are depreciating assets – not straight line depreciation but logarithmic line depreciation – the value of properties in UK in some areas have reduced by more than half. E.g. just 10 months ago a 3 bedroom flat I saw was £250,000, today the owner is desperate to get rid of it for £110,000. Housing market in UK and USA is like a fire sale.
For Veeeh’s a jolly good fellow, for Veeeh’s a jolly good fellow, for Veeeh’s a jolly good fellow, and so say all of us!
Veeeh Uncle, we need to hear more of your economic, monetary, accounting, and banking views – I like this – it is very smart, and very INDIAN! GOOD, GOOD!
Naah Dupree was selling Retail Asset finance and unsecured loans till 25 lakhs, one of my many career changes, before I got into software consultancy.
And was doing business planning and strategy as well. So can talk about Business metrics and your accounting too!
Have your tried selling used cars? I hear its a lucrative line.
@Ankit-
Those Americans spending money on luxury cars are mostly LEASING them. A car loan used to be the easiest type of loan to get in the US, but few Americans have decent enough credit nowadays to even qualify for any car loan at any interest rate.
Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck, the money is already spent before they get it. The ‘American Dream’ is bought with borrowed money. Many Americans have given up saving nearly altogether.
I sincerely doubt all the money I paid into the US Social Security system will be available when I go to retire in 20 yrs.
Sharell,
Very interesting blog !! I am going through the articles right now and loving it.
I cant imagine what its like to try to assimilate to a society that is so different than one is born in !! I am impressed at some of the non-indian posters on this blog (and others linked from this site).
I am a kolkattan born living in california. My wife was born and raised here. My wife didnt have to deal too much of adverse culture shock/interracial difficulties. My parents love her more than her own family (not exaggerating !!) so no adversity between the usual wife-MIL. since I live here in the US my wife says she got the best of both worlds – not having to follow/learn any customs/traditions etc while still being married to someone who is east indian. hehe
My wife doesn’t know how easy she has had it compared to day to day struggles with cultural differences one has to overcome when living in India.
Hi KetelOne, thanks for stopping by and commenting. I hope you’ll enjoy all the different articles on the blog — there’s a huge variety! I try and add something for everyone.
It does sound like you have a great set up, definitely the best of both worlds, and are enjoying life in the US (which is wonderful). All the customs and traditions tend to be overwhelming and the focus of life in India, whereas there’s much more scope for just living in the west. 
Hi Sharell,
Do you know websites where one can learn Bengali (just some common words). I checked, there is no Rosetta stone for Bengali. I am trying to get her to learn Hindi instead because most of my relatives can speak hindi too.
Yes the traditions are indeed very burdensome. The only thing I ever forced my wife to undergo was to wear sari during our reception in India and also during wedding and reception of my brother. After that trip out goes the sari and in comes the jeans-tshirt. hehe
I think if I may broadly generalize (and please correct me if I am wrong), there are probably 2 types of women who are in relationship with/married to Indian men. One are what would be true “indophiles”. Most people in the blog sphere probably belong to this group. The second group are women who fell in love and married men who just happen to be indians. They don’t have particular affinity/attraction to Indian culture.
Am I in the ballpark or far off the mark?
btw, for God’s sake , ladies please stop traveling by public transport. I am not being an elitist about it. Even a lot of Indian women get harassed by hoodlums in a crowded bus. For a foreigner to travel (without male relative/co worker) is just rolling the dice here. In my days of living in India, I myself saw plenty of women getting harassed (groping, fondling) in public bus. and that was Kolkata. I would think its insane to be traveling alone in Delhi. Dont know much about Mumbai but cant be that much safer either. Now the desis can go ahead and start the flame war !!
I dont wanna rain on anyone’s parade but please please ladies, be “situationally aware” when you go out by yourself. Things can change in a few seconds and trust me when I say that even so called “gentlemen” and “ladies” wont come to rescue in a crowded market when a group of hoodlums decide to take it a notch further than plain harassment.
Hi again,
Funny you should mention it, my first and only groping was on a public bus in Kolkata.
I elbowed him hard in the stomach in return. I was so shocked too because he looked like such a decent family man. In Mumbai, the trains have ladies compartments for women only — but those women are vicious and happily trample others to get aboard. Men tend to be a lot more well behaved in Mumbai though. I’ve never been groped here. And taking the train is so necessary to go from one end of the city to the other because of the bad traffic. A distance that would take 2 hours in the car can take less than an hour by train. Delhi, I’ve never taken public transport by myself. I feel a little uncomfortable in that city.
As for your other comment about the two kinds of people who marry Indians — you are spot on. But there is a kind of in between. People who have met an Indian guy and still made a big effort to understand and appreciate his culture. It’s not easy for people who met their guy outside of India though. I think I’m soooo lucky because I met my hubby in India, and still I had a lot to learn. It’s so much more difficult to get a feel for Indian culture and its intricacies without ever having gone to India. I hear so many disaster stories. It’s even common for people to want to move to India for love — they think that just being in love with their guy will be enough for them to survive in India and be happy but it just WONT. I always strongly recommend that anyone who comes to India has another goal or interest for themselves here as a diversion to everything else that goes on!
Sharell ,
“Delhi, I’ve never taken public transport by myself. I feel a little uncomfortable in that city.”
I hope your experience in Delhi of a public transport was long before Metro , New fleet of Low-Floor-AC/NON-AC Buses , Hop-on Hop-off tour-bus , regulation on the fares of Autos and Taxi , etc came in to existence.
I hardly use public transport now but whenever I do ( around 4-5 time in last 3 years) , I am pleasantly surprised by the drastic change in the quality of service , staff and equipment.
Buses are sleek , comfortable and equipped with GPS with hydraulic doors operated by drivers.In one line , its now comparable to any Bus-Service in the world.And considering the use of environment friendly CNG gas , pollution has been reduced to a significant low level.
And I am still to know the reasons of your discomfort in the city.Any personal experience , apart from statistics of crime.
Well, I’ve never been on the Metro — but it sounds luxurious compared to the Mumbai local.
I have taken taxis by myself in Delhi, and that was okay. But Kashmere Gate bus station where we took the bus from to Haridwar was awful. Hate to say it, but my personal discomfort comes from some of the men in Delhi and the disgusting way that they behave. Particularly the ones that hang around tourist areas, and make lewd comments and gestures. 
Unfortunately, my hubby can understand everything they say, even if I cant.
When I go to India (kolkata), I cant even go out by myself with wifey. My parents wont allow it. Either they will accompany us or my brother or someone who lives there.
Mind you, I spent the first 23 years of my life when I left for abroad, so its not like I don’t know my ways around Kolkata. But my parents wont trust me to go out in the city by myself with wifey.
Thank goodness, my wife doesnt know the language so cant understand the lewd comments people make around us !! She is very uncomfortable with the gawking though.
Sharell ,
“Well, I’ve never been on the Metro — but it sounds luxurious compared to the Mumbai local. ”
Haha , actually that is worse comparison than even “Chalk and Cheese”.. There is no way you can compare Local and Metro.. on speed , comfort , safety , cleanliness , security , prices.. facilities and other parameters..they are poles apart..
but let me tell you the truth that Locals are more important to Mumbai than Metro is to Delhi. , No doubt..
I can assure you that Delhi-Metro is at par with best metro services in world and in fact better than Paris and Rome Metro services which I used..So , I expect that India correspondent of About.com should ride Metro once ..!
By Kashmiri gate Bus-station , I think you are referring to ISBT(Inter State Bus Terminal) and I completely agree with you.Main Bus terminal of Capital of India is so disorganized , noisy , chaotic and dirty.Bus station of state capitals like Chandigarh , Lucknow , Banglore and even some two tier cities are better than this.But Last I go their to catch a bus to Dehradun , It was being renovated and I just hope the result comes out as good as we had with T-3 and Metro.
Delhi Men ! What to say about them ?
But me and wife have totally different way to tackle this.Whenever any guy stares at her ..then we simply stop there only and start staring him into face with dead-expression.You don’t have to be an astrologer to predict what happens next .. hahaha..
And yes you can also learn some ‘reformed’ Hindi cuss-words like “Teri Maan ki Aakh” which the foreigner protagonist in the movie “Rang De Basanti” used against his producer.
Oh, as for Bengali, why not buy the Lonely Planet Bengali Hindi and Urdu phrasebook. That’s how I started with Bengali.
Actually the initial hesitation/rejection is always there for anything/anybody new. Do you think, brown colored guy going to US will be accepted and welcomed and not reminded of his color in day to day life ??
Heck.. even Russel Peters gets hassled coz of his color to this day. And he was born and brought in Canada..
This is a common tendency.. what happens is.. that the initial rejection is due to your color but the acceptance will come when ppl realize the efforts you were making to be part of the community.
But this same routine will be with every new person you interacts with.
Whenever I traveled abroad. I always got stares. Children ask to be clicked with me. Their parents want to be clicked with me. They even take a roundabout to have a second look at me
And the privileges a white person enjoy in day to day life.. is pretty appealing.. but could be a bad influence on you in the long run. Because when u use them you actually making urself stand apart from the same people you wanna be part of. Make sure you dont misuse it.
In short, eat/drink/wear anything you want but be wary of the company you are in and behave accordingly and you will just do fine.
Take care.
Just so you know, Russel Peters was not born in Canada. His is an anglo-indian family which moved to Canada from Bengal when he was a kid.
The complete culture of an Indian and customs should be developed and followed for an individual to become an Indian.
Hi Runal, this is a bit tricky though because as we know, there are so many different cultures and customs all over India, and they’re followed to differing degrees to different people! Just to add to the confusion about it all.
“complete culture of an Indian and customs”
What does that even mean? Sure go ahead and use some more vague, general terms !! LOL
Is ‘Wiping the @rse’, part of this cultural shit? I’m all for retaining the best parts of culture, but overdoing that ain’t that good, my boy!
The problem is not the “wiping”. The problem comes when they are not “wiping”. Focus on the real problem yaar!
LOL
Yes the problem is not ‘wipe’ but shit.
No really, the problem is food. If they didn’t eat, it wouldn’t exist. Hunger strike anyone? (Please, just a joke, no offense intended!).
“That is I always wonder that GOD made Hunger ,
If what we eat would eventually become shit . ”
OMG ! It rhymed like a poem of John Keats
“So, foreigners like me eventually give up. We think “stuff it”. We start eating what we want, dressing how we want, and doing what we want. If we’re going to be viewed as a foreigner, we might as well behave like one! I’ve come to realise my white skin gives me certain power in India, and now I know how to use it to my advantage. If something is bothering me, I know people will listen when I complain. I know they will be less likely to brush me off, or give me the run around.”
Please BE YOURSELF and eat want YOU want, dress how YOU want, and behave how YOU want…don’t put on a spectacle for others for few years and expect a certain kind of response that YOU except.
“MY WHITE SKIN GIVES ME CERTAIN POWER IN INDIA”. You also seem to be elevating your ‘whiteness’. Really what does it mean. If you are talking about entry into clubs and bars, just being well dressed and looking economically upward will gain you an entry…not the color of your skin…May be being more educated and kind will give more power in a lot of other places.
Of course, I’m not elevating my whiteness. It’s people in India who do that. I’ve only learned to respond the way I’m treated. No, I’m not just talking about entry into clubs. I’m talking about every day matters such as cops who will try and demand a bribe from my husband but back down if I confront them. I’m talking about people in call centres who will give my husband and many other Indians (educated) I know the run around, but will stop and pay attention when I get on the phone. I never go around mentioning my education qualifications to people in passing, because to me it’s just not relevant. Kind and well mannered, yes, I am that. I always treat people with respect unless they act disrespectfully to me.
Since when has been trying to blend in and adapt been “putting on a spectacle”. Behaving and dressing how I want is not culturally sensitive. I believe in being respectful as I’m an immigrant into this country. Enough said, I think.
“I’m talking about people in call centres who will give my husband and many other Indians (educated) I know the run around, but will stop and pay attention when I get on the phone.”
so true Sharell…how do “the Indians” see your “whiteness” when you get on the phone. You can as will be “GREEN” in color but put a strong, able-fight to demand what is right or stand up for right.
They listen they listen to me or and more to mother-in-law very intently when we get on the phone instead of many male members of our family. Do we become ‘white’ because we are heard.
It’s the foreign accent.
Please don’t be so hard on yourself.
You would feel better about yourself and serve you better in the long run, if you understand that you fight for right and justice in a rather strong voice as it should be (something that your husband can learn from you if he want); rather than downgrade yourself by attributing it to the COLOR OF YOUR SKIN AND FOREIGNNESS OF YOUR ACCENT. There are lots of people white colored skins and foreign accent both in India and elsewhere, who are not heard/respected.
How much do you charge for these brainstorming session ?
free of cost dear…but your brain seems to have enough storms going through it…so that would be a waste of time…
And your Brain seems to be free of any ‘logical’ , sensible and ‘intellectual’ storm ..that is why you are providing all the crap you are left with for free.Sorry I am not a free loader
‘Being educated’ has nothing to do with ‘educational qualifications.
Enough said.
I believe in the school of life.
and I hope you are learning.
Every day is a huge lesson, and especially so in India. That’s part of the reason why I love it here, even though it’s a challenge sometimes. There’s nothing like getting a whole different perspective on yourself. See, I come from a simple family back home. My dad is an electrician. Sure, I’m educated, but I’m the first one in the family to get a degree. So coming to India and finding all this emphasis on skin colour, status, and education is crazy to me. I find it absurd that someone can look at me and make assumptions that I must be rich and powerful because I’m white. It’s just not the case. I honestly came here not wanting to be treated any differently from anyone here, and definitely not expecting to be (because I’m just an average person), but that wasn’t the case. At first, I was so upset and even outraged, Now, I’m moving onto the understanding and accepting stage. Anyway, I honestly have to go now. I have to go out, and it’s pouring rain so will be hard get a rickshaw!
Sharell, is there no emphasis on color in Australia?
Name me a few people in Australia who are prominent, wealthy or famous that are of Indian or Middle Eastern descent? I really can’t think of any. I think skin color and culture have a bigger bearing in Australia than you think. The difference is Indians will say these things to your face. The discrimination against Indians in the West is more underground. Here in America people will say they are for equal treatment, but when MSNBC or CNN does a poll and asks people to give their impression of an individual of Indian or Middle Eastern background or a “Muslim” (white people or black people for the most part cannot tell the difference) the response is overwhelmingly negative, something like 70 percent think negatively of the individual.
I don’t think that prominent, wealthy, or famous should be definitions of success. There are numerous people of Indian descent who are doing well for themselves in Aus, for example in the field of medicine. If you’re good at what you do, then you can succeed. An ex-work colleague is an example of that. I remember when he joined the office as a temp. financial auditor (despite the fact that he had been an audit manager in India, he had to start at the bottom). He worked his way back up to manager level, and then got an excellent job in another government department, was earning enough to buy a second house as an investment property.
You have to keep in mind that if comparing Aus and the US, Aus is probably where the US was in the 1970s in terms of immigration, particularly immigration by Indians. Indians are much more established in the US. Migration to Australia is a relatively new phenomena.
The thing is, if people are polled and think negatively about Indians, Muslims, or people from the middle east — why is that? There must be a reason? What is it about these groups that are causing people to think this about them?
“The thing is, if people are polled and think negatively about Indians, Muslims, or people from the middle east — why is that? There must be a reason? What is it about these groups that are causing people to think this about them?”
Its called ignorance Sharell. If you have another reason I’d like to hear it.
‘Hope’ has nothing to do with ‘Learning’ .
lolz ,, i think dont u have any other work ,,most active user here .. jzzzzzz.
‘Being Educate’ has nothing to do with Rea.
Actually, I will say one last thing more to this: I try and do everything right according to Indian culture, and you call it making a spectacle. I say anything “disagreeable” about Indian culture, and you call it making a mockery. So, seems I can’t win. There’s a saying “there just is no pleasing some people!”.
True again..family and friends (your husband, your family, friends etc etc) who you seem be interacting with seem to welcome you. But you want each person you inteact with welcome with you with however you please. Seriously,“there just is no pleasing some people!”.
On putting spectacle, you can dress and dance any which way you want…but EXPECTING a response that you would be pleased with is definitly constitute a putting a spectacle.
I clearly didn’t spell check my post
..
True again..family and friends (your husband, your family, friends etc) who you seem be interacting with seem to welcome you. But you want each person you interact with welcome with you with however you please. Seriously, “there just is no pleasing some people!”.
On putting spectacle, you can dress and dance any which way you want…but EXPECTING a response that you would be pleased with, would definitely constitute putting a spectacle.
Unfortunately, that’s a great fault with us human beings…. too often we have expectations. And that’s our downfall.
to each his/her own..
I don’t know why you entertain morons who are clearly here just to attack you for no real reason. If I were you, I would just mark such comments as spam.
You’re right Shivani, I probably should. Thanks for the advice. I guess it just comes down to me not wanting to be biased with what I allow to be posted . But maybe I should be a bit more discriminatory.
also Please don’t stop making valid criticisms just because some Indians start howling in protest because they don’t have the capacity or capability of introspection (be it self or society wise).
Needless to say but I will still go ahead and say it.
* You are not a tourist. You live and work here
* You dont live amongst expats in enclaves that is just located in India but might as well be the west. Instead you live amongst middle class, regular Indan people.
Just by virtue of this, you are as much vested in this country as average Indian living here. So next time someone says something stupid and immature like “if you don’t like it, go”, you know what to say.
Its always good to hear the voice and opinions of someone who hasn’t drunk the kook aid !!
I feel empowered now! 8)
@ Sharell
it was actually funny to read the stereotyped exchange with you – kinda proves that a perceived notion a white lady is
1) A snob party girl aka bitch
2) Selfless social worker and NGO worker
And that the full spectrum for you. You can’t lead any other life style as a white woman.
If you want respect be the 2nd type and clean our mess.
don’t you think that the terms of acceptance sound very rude and unsympathetic. It does not matter if you really want to be treated without frills like any other middle class Indian, without any privileges of being a white woman!
Be yourself Sharell, Its senseless to be people pleaser in any country, specifically mine, for there are more people there than any other country.
Yes, very revealing discussion.
Oh but even that doesn’t always earn respect. Conversation with an ex-colleague (an Indian who migrated to Australia and joined the accounting office where I worked): “You’re going to do community work in India? Really, you don’t want to be doing that. Don’t involve yourself in all that. It is all too much trouble than its worth. You’ll end up very bothered.”
So, I like your advice. It’s really valid. I think it’s one of my big learning lessons in life.
Very well put ketelOne.
@ketelone
That way of living helps foreigners and alien workers to integrate but not become an Indian
that’s so right!
To the foreigners who are fed up of trying to assimilate and still getting picked out of the crowd and discriminated against just because of skin color,
I got some good news for you (especially the ladies).
If you read other expat columns you will realize your situation is MUCH MUCH better than than other group of expats. These are white western guys in Thailand. If I could cash every story for a penny where a thai girl hauled ass after milking the average falang (gora) I would be a millionaire. These guys buy land and build home in their wives name in the village (you cant legally own land in Thailand if you are a foreigner at least not without some intricate legal manouvers). After the home is built, so many get the boot. Years of emotiona/financial investment down the drain. Story after story.
In the end they all say, no matter how they try to integrate themselves as a part of Thai society, in the end, they are all and only Falang. They can never be thai. I think the same would be true in India.
No matter how much charity work you do, no matter how much you try to integrate and assimilate and follow customs, maybe only a minority few will consider you “our own”. Most of them will just judge you as gora/gori. a foreigner. Its really sad.
So I would say is stop worrying about perception and do what makes YOU happy. I told my wife the same thing.
@ ketelOne
I would call them naive and stupid. What on earth were they thinking, to put their money on a house that isn’t legally theirs? I bet most of these ‘victims’ never had much experience with women to begin with.
They are married to the girls most of the time. They are deeply in love and have stayed with the women for sometimes up to 2-3 years (being married). They are not your typical “naive” people just “love blind” probably.
The point still stands. No matter what, for majority of the people, as sad as it may sound, the foreigners still will always be foreigners.
@ ketelOne
Deeply in love? I don’t think so. More like an “Asian girl” fetish or a disenchantment with American women. Or both.
Well it sounds like the white guy was in love but his Thai wife/girlfriend had other ideas.
One of my white American male cousins fits the bill for this situation. First he married a white American woman that took everything he had (even his clothes) in 18 months, then he married a ‘mail order bride’ from Kamchatka- she got her American visa & charged up all his credit cards & left in 8 months, then he got a Chinese email order bride whom he put through nursing school then she ditched him, then he was introduced to a Thai woman by a mutual friend- after 3 phone conversations they agreed to meet in Bangkok but 1st she insisted he send her $3,000 to repair her car so she could drive it to meet her at the airport- he sent the $$$ -bought the ticket- she ran off with some other guy as soon as she got the $3,000, now he’s corresponding with a Phillipino woman by email- any wonder as to how this relationship is going to end?
This same cousin asked me if it was possible to ‘buy’ a wife in Nepal or India. I said ‘yes’. But I also told him he’d better figure out a way to make a living in India because he doesn’t have enough $$$ left to bring anymore women to the US.
He didn’t like that very much.
I think he has Aspergers Syndrome because he doesn’t seem to be able to recognize the pattern in his relationships.
Then again maybe he’s just stupid.
Nonetheless he & a couple of my lawyer friends tried in vain to convince me that my Indian husband would leave me after 2 yrs when he got his US visa. Well, it has been 10 yrs now.
If it were arranged marriage, as his cousin, you would have had to help contribute to arranging someone compatible for him.
But then he would have helped arrange someone for you too.
LOL
@ Tamasha
Kamchatka is one of the most isolated corners of Russia, what kind of connection did he expect to have with a woman there? Chances are, your cousin went for the woman because he found her pretty (and liked the way she talked). She wanted him only for his money and potential green card.
Your cousin is a part of the trend with a lot of American, British and Australian men all over the world. Go to the Americas, Southeast Asia or East Europe; flash your passport, your dollars and pick a bride. And then expect LOVE out of it? They have a better chance finding penguins in Angola.
@Abdullah-
I know where Kamchatka is, what I don’t understand is why these Western men don’t catch on.
This cousin is now 62 yrs old, jobless, diabetic, & lost his house to foreclosure so he’s darned near ‘homeless’.
Yet he’s still going after women who want him for $$$ & a chance at a green card or US citizenship.
Oh well, I guess the old idiom especially applies to men- One cannot love and be wise.
@ TAMASHA!
Western men, no. The Brits are smart, trick them once and you can’t trick them again. Americans on the other hand, are a different breed together; they have short term and hence, can’t resist a tempting sales pitch that dupes them again and again.
But seriously, I feel sorry for your cousin. Being a man in America is like being a woman in Afghanistan.
I meants to say, “They have short term memories…”
@Abdullah-
‘But seriously, I feel sorry for your cousin. Being a man in America is like being a woman in Afghanistan.’
HAHAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Please elaborate, how do you know what being a man in America is like?
Being a man in US, let me see
- Football, basketball or any game
- Beer guzzling
- Commitment hating
- Prone to cheating
- They never grow up
How is this for the stereotyped version of the American Man.
@ TAMASHA!
That would be a rather long conversation. So I’ll just skip it for now.
@ veeeeeh
You are talking about boys, not men. Don’t mix them up.
“Being a man in America is like being a woman in Afghanistan.”
So what kind of Burqas american men wear. ?
@Mohit-
HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
That was a good one!
Nobody can take their wealth with them. So if they can “buy” some love that makes their remaining days in this earth, a little better, I am all for it.
I don’t judge them either way.
Tamasha, there are many men who have successful relationships with these women. Do not be angry because western men find these women more attractive than white women!
Or they sub consciously choose to be victim and presumed that the women from Thailand would be different!
@ Sharell
Look at the bright side. As someone considered a foreigner, you can get your way and things done in India that normal Indians wouldn’t. The call center is one example.
On the downside, you are equally likely to be fleeced. Just this morning, a Delhi taxiwalla had the guts to quote Rs 1400 for a trip from the New Delhi station to Shanti Niketan (the normal cab fare is around 250). I am sure if it were an Indian, the quote would have been closer to reality.
No matter what you do you will never be an indian.
Learn all the indian languages,wear indian clothes,live here for 50 years sorry you wont be indian.Although you can come close to being one
India and its people have a distinct identity(ethnically) like many other countries japan,china,germany
And that does not mean, she is losing out on anything…riiiiiight?
American/British/Australian people in public life have a tendency to badmouth South-Asians and Joel-Stein , Paul Henry , Nasser Hussein , Michael Vaughan are a perfect example of this.
I think these type of people are the main reasons why Indians don’t accept Americans/British/Australians wholeheartedly. !
@ Mohit gupta
I would have thought, coming from a 10,000 year old culture, Indians would have been culturally mature and proud not to be offended by all these ‘bad mouthing’.
You are right and in fact mature Indians wouldn’t be offended much by these “Badmouthing” creatures but this certainly doesn’t help to infuse trust in common people of India for American/British/Australian people.
Can you give me a link about “Nasser Hussein” and what he said about India?
Nasser’s father is an Indian. Mom was a Brit. He grew up in Chennai. He (His family) was my neighbor in Chennai and we went to the same school.
Nasser didn’t ‘badmouth’ Indians. He was commentating on a recent cricket match between England and India and said that, although some of the Indian team field like lions, one or two field like donkeys. If you go to Youtube and search for ‘Nasser Hussain donkeys’ (his name is Hussain, not Hussein) you can hear the clip. There’s been a lot of manufactured outrage and hysteria over this comment and people reporting things he never actually said, such as claiming that he called all Indians ‘dumb donkeys’ – which is nonsense.
And as Manny said, Nasser was born in Chennai and has an Indian father, which I see Mohit conveniently ignores in his “American/British/Australian people in public life have a tendency to badmouth South-Asians” comment.
Are you crazy Joanne ? What his roots has to do with what he said ? Jo just because his father once happened to be ‘Indian’ , he can say whatever we want against players of National Team.Nasser Hussein is a True-Blue-British in every sense.That is a fact which you conveniently ignored.
So just because OBAMA has been born and brought up in Indonesia and has a Kenyan Father , does he have a right to abuse Indonesians and Kenyans ?
Actually people like you are the problem that whenever someone from Western Countries say something bad , you start defending instead of judging impartially.
If it makes you feel any better Mohit, As a kid, I used to beat him up. Ha Ha!
Whelp! Not really beat him, but push him around a bit maybe. His older brother and I were good friends and we did play cricket together.
Lol and still he didn’t learn how to differentiate between donkeys and cricket players. you should not have pushed him but actually ride him so he could know how difficult is to be a ‘donkey’..
I agree with mohit to some extent.There are a group of people who just hate India and everything about it (indophobia) and there are some who absolutely love it.Hussain belongs to the former i feel
Ive heard nasser hussain for a long time ever since he retired from playing cricket and jumped into the commentary box and he just lashes out at indians at every oppurtunity.I can understand the fielding part but even when a batsmen is beaten by a good delivery he says “oh that shot would have been great on those dead as dodo subcontinental tracks but not on royal english soil”
His tirade reminds me of churchil who once said “Indian people are beastly who follow a beastly religion”
Come to think of it, Nasser’s mom was the original “White Indian house wife”. Long before the Internet decade. She speaks perfect Hindi/Urdu and reasonable Tamil. True!
@Joanne
True…In my opinion, Nasser likes India (probably because he’s partly Indian) and so, he’s probably frustrated with the way Indians TOTALLY surrendered to the English team…It’s such a big SHAME for all Indians, to lose 0-4 to England (SPECIALLY, after winning the World Cup). This loss also ensures the stereotypes of Indians.
Anyways, there’s nothing really offensive in what he said, although Donkey (sometimes & contextual – similar to throwing footwear) is more offensive in India, than in the western world.
Hahaha , What a Joke ..He Likes Indian and that is why he called some Indian players ‘Donkey’ and he like Indian players more than Indians .. that apparent hurt is actually cheap publicity stunt.
Nothing offensive in calling someone donkey that too on a public and live telecast ?
Until someone faces it personally , there is really nothing offensive in ‘abusing’ people.I would definitely see strongest of reaction if I call anyone donkey here.
@Mohit
I played good enough professional cricket and know how it can be. Anyways, I’ll not make further comments, as I don’t know the whole story, but it is definitely frustrating to see how India lost all the test matches…It’s a SHAME!
That is shame for sure !
“Are you crazy Joanne ?”
No. Are you? Given the way you’re hysterically over-reacting to Nasser’s (admittedly pretty silly and unnecessary) comment about ONE OR TWO Indian cricketers he felt, correctly in my opinion, were not performing to a high enough standard, I think you’re far likelier to be crazy than I am. I truly don’t understand why you, and some other Indians online, are so offended by it. Call me a ‘donkey’ if you like. I couldn’t possibly care less.
“So just because OBAMA has been born and brought up in Indonesia and has a Kenyan Father , does he have a right to abuse Indonesians and Kenyans ?”
If he’s employed to comment on a sports game and he thinks that one or two Indonesians or Kenyans are not doing the job they’re paid very large sums of money to do, and are basically cheating their own fans by surrendering so tamely to the opposition, I think he has the right to point this out, yes.
BTW, the Indian commentator Sanjay Manjrekar described the English bowler James Anderson as a ‘rabbit’ when he came out to bat. Shall I get all offended and huffy about that? No thanks, I have far better things to do with my life. Get over it, for goodness’ sake.
“Actually people like you are the problem that whenever someone from Western Countries say something bad , you start defending instead of judging impartially.”
And people like you are the problem, that whenever anyone from ‘western countries’ says something, you jump on the Oh My God Let’s Get As Offended As We Possibly Can bandwagon and consider yourself personally insulted instead of judging impartially.
Joanne ,
Those who support someone who talk shit and abuse in public have lost their sense and morality.Crazy is actually an understatement for those.
Yeah I am crazy in cutting people acting over-smart to sizes.And its just not like me or some other online Indians who are reacting over it but whole cricket fraternity is blaming that attention-crazy creature called ‘Nasser Hussein’.
“they’re paid very large sums of money to do, and are basically cheating their own fans by surrendering so tamely to the opposition.”
Indian Cricketers are paid by BCCI not by Mr Nasser Hussein and they are not answerable to any tom, dick and harry.And no tom , dick and harry has right to call anyone ‘Donkey’ and for your Kind Information BCCI has now protested strongly to ECB and ESPN and more likely ECB is going to apologize.Question to Nasser Hussein What is sense in talking shit when you are going to eat in the days to come.
If you are not offended by ‘Rabbit’ remark then why the hell you are mentioning that.It means you are offended and I have no problem with that because I am not hypocrite.Anyone talking shit must apologize.
I don’t think you have better things to do when you are indulging in crazy talk with a crazy person like me.
Joanne ,
I am not from Media and have no interest in twisting What damn Nasser Hussein or ‘Hussain’ said.OK. I have actually heard what he said on Live Commentary.Having followed cricket for the last 20 years , I have observed some behavioral pattern of English/Australian cricketers.That is what Nasser Hussein said ..
“”I would say the difference between the two side is the fielding. England are all-round a good fielding side. I do believe that India have few…3or 4 very good fielders and one or two donkeys in the field still,”
The outrage is not manufactured but created by Nasser Hussein for cheap publicity knowing fully well that he can get away with it.His intentions became obvious when in a different discussion he went on to name Parthiv , Munaf and Praveen as donkeys.
Irony is that in the same match , fielding of England was as poor as India but he didn’t call them anything.Isn’t it strange ?
And when It was being ignored by BCCI another attention-crazy Micheal Vaughan came in the scene and went one step further and twittered.
“”Just seen that Nasser said the Indians have a couple of donkeys in the field. How wrong can he be! I have seen at least four”
And we thought Cricket is a gentlemen game and British are courteous.
And I am still to forget when whole of British/Australian Media gone berserk on Harbhajan Singh when he ‘allegedly’ called Symonds a ‘Moneky’.. Isn’t it HYPOCRISY ?
Wow….just woooooow. I’m going to copy this post as a perfect example of a victim complex. Fascinating.
The British and Australian media have had it out for India for decades. Its not a a victim complex, its just a statement of the facts. The American media, while not altogether positive about India, is far more balanced in this regard.
The British and Australians in general have a strong dislike for Indians. But again this will probably change. As the sun sets on the British and Australian nations they will realize that new powers are rising in the world and that their short time in the limelight is over. Balance is coming back to the planet and India, the Middle East and China will return to their rightful positions as custodians of the world.
Joanne ,
I am sorry that I called you ‘Crazy’. Actually that was an understatement for someone who side with people who abuses national cricketers on Television and oppose people who wants cricket to remain a ‘Gentlemen Game’.
Come on ! Colonial era has long gone and India is financial backbone of Cricket and its gonna harm people like Nasser Hussein more than Indian Cricketers , Indians Cricket or Fans !
one thing more ..
What you call victim complex is a hard-hitting presentation of facts and emphatic expression that any Crap from any American/British/Australian will not be tolerated at all , now.
Gone is the time when Indians, specially in cricketing circles , cried for apparent victimization , now we know how to tackle cheap and arrogant British ex cricketers who are like whores past their expiry date.
You post comments using the words ‘shit’ and ‘whore’. What a classy guy you are, poor little victim.
Oh , the classy British soul has woken up now when I use these words and the same ‘classy’ soul goes into hibernation when his compatriots ex cricketer abuses international players on live TV.
I think classless society is much better than hypocrite one.
I think anyone who takes a silly statement regarding one or two sportsmen not doing their jobs properly as a dire insult against an entire nation is hyper-sensitive to the point of mental illness.
Then , by your standard almost whole cricket fraternity and BCCI are “Mentally ill” as they have protested strongly against ‘bastardization’ of cricketing language.
Before I appreciate you for your talent of making stories and statement please quote where I took the Nasser’s comments ” as a dire insult against an entire nation” .. you are really crazy !
I was against use of any abuse for any person specially on live telecast and we have had enough of examples of such verbal-misadventure by mostly American/British/Australian people in public life.
If you have accepting in truth that Nasser Hussein and other alike crossed their boundary of decency then its you who should go to check your mental condition probably in Agra.
correction- *If you have difficulty in accepting truth*
“mostly American/British/Australian”
@Mohit
You are pointing at American/British/Australian, only because you probably understand only English…Do you think the French/German/Italian/Spanish/Russian, etc people don’t do that? (I’m sure they do that, coz I’ve seen/heard enough of that)…Anyways, I only want to say that good & bad exists everywhere. So, don’t judge everyone based on what happened, when you watched a cricket match, where some sarcastic English bloke blah-blah’d on Indians.
Joanne,
Comments about cricket are just the tip of the iceberg. Read the huge amount of negative articles on BBC News about India on a daily basis. Some of these articles would never pass the copy editor at the New York Times. But then again the BBC is the Imperial British governments news and propaganda arm so why am I surprised.
I find some of the white women here hilarious. They will be the first to yell “you don’t know what its like to be a women” or “you don’t know what its like to be white in India” or blah blah blah.
Do any of you honestly know what its like to be an Indian or Middle Eastern man in the western world? Its bottom of the rung status in nearly every part of life. So stop thinking your fairy tale princess life is so hard!
Prashanth ,
“You are pointing at American/British/Australian, only because you probably understand only English…Do you think the French/German/Italian/Spanish/Russian, etc people don’t do that? (I’m sure they do that, coz I’ve seen/heard enough of that)
——————————————————-
I think you are right that reports and news in other European languages are hardly read by Indians in India or reported by India Media but for the same reason French/German/Italian/Spanish have little or no interest/contact with Indians , generally.So they are least likely to comment on Indians.
But I have come to know some interesting and real characterization of Indians , though exaggerated , in a Zurich newspaper Tages-Anzeiger with a title “Into the luxury Hotels with a gas cooker”.I burst in laughter when I read that some hotel owners calls some Indians as “MASALA MILITANT”.. That was funny for me but I can feel the pain of those hotel owners who had to put up with whole family of five when booking was done for only two.
@ Mohit
You are perfectly right that in saying that the French have little economic contact with the Indians, and very little Indian immigration. Plus we don’t play cricket. Therefore the media over here badmouth other people like Africans, Chinese and Roms. However Asian families have a good reputation with teachers.
About Switzerland, you are no doubt referring to the Yash Raj tours. Swiss hotel owners are annoyed by the fact that some Indian customers COOK inside the rooms, which is not acceptable at all in continental Europe. We went there for our honeymoon.
Then I would like to say that during my trips to India, I have heard a lot of Indians badmouthing the Brits
@ prithviraj33
I have some idea of what it’s like to be Indian in Europe. Then again I guess it’s different if you are an Indian yoga teacher or artist or construction worker…
@mohit
lol grow a thick skin mate , India’s fielding is the laughing stock of the world and that commentator called a spade a spade.Indians are renowned for their inferiority complex and unable to-accept any sort of criticism/ subtle digs and you just proved it !
Thick Skin ? Too difficult as I use ‘Fair and Handsome’ cream regularly !
For rest of your comment , it is actually stinking like decomposed organic material which your stomach is full of and is now affecting your brain too.
“So coming to India and finding all this emphasis on skin colour, status, and education is crazy to me. I find it absurd that someone can look at me and make assumptions that I must be rich and powerful because I’m white. It’s just not the case.” (Sharell)
Lots of white people who go to India are actually poor in their own country ; students, artists, people on a spritual path… However they will be perceived as rich in India. I suppose the Indian Government is higly aware of that since they have changed the rules for work permits for foreigners which are tougher now.
What you describe Sharell, is simply prejudice. It happens in every country, and it’s never nice.
I don’t like prejudice in my country and was disturbed and saddened when I saw prejudice in India. It always strikes me when I see African ladies using dangerous products to whiten their skin, or when I read matrimonial adds in India where fair brides are wanted. Isn’t it strange to be white and say “wait a minute, folks, black is beautiful” ?
“Then I would like to say that during my trips to India, I have heard a lot of Indians badmouthing the Brits”
No doubt the inhabitants of former French colonies badmouth the French just as much.
Come to think of it, a lot of people in Europe badmouth the French too, especially in Germany…ouch. 
Everybody loves to badmouth the French, even the French themselves
However in Pondicherry, I met a lot of friendly Indians who wanted to practise their french.
True that…Similarly, I haven’t seen/heard many Indians who badmouthed the Brits, although they learnt a lot (math, medicine, etc) and then exploited India.
Not really! Based on my experience, I can say that the Brits badmouth the French, more than the Germans do.
I guess the Brits are foul mouthed
Not all, just a minority (specially the ones who follow Chav culture)…but Brits are pretty good at sarcasm! Anyways, there are many good folks there..and I find ‘em more open-minded, than the French.
When I talked about the Brits badmouthing the French, it’s almost always about the WW2 and how they surrendered to the Germans. Also, I didn’t imply that the Germans are friendly folks…just that they are carrying heavy baggage (history of wars, Nazism, Hitler, etc) and are afraid to open their mouths…Instead, they do it with a stare…A powerful stare with shitloads of watts, that can light a village, for a day.
In general, Europe has a long way to go, to get rid of it’s Xenophobia…Europe is liberal, but not open-minded…It definitely has some advantages, but it’s not really a pleasant experience, for a foreigner (specially, non-whites).
@prashant – being half British (sorry) and half French (sorry again), I can tell you that there’s been a lot of foul speech between these two cultures going back at least to Joanne of Arc !
Xenophobia in Europe… Well, I have to agree with you.
True…and you don’t have to be sorry for being a French-Brit hybrid or a Fetish (French & British – No offence meant.
), coz I don’t have prejudices and usually get along with everyone. 
A Festish ? That’s funny
@ prashanth
A mild xenophobia is an instinct in Europe. When a European nation gets too comfortable with foreigners, it is only a matter of time it faces an invasion or gets over-run by foreigners with malicious agenda. France and Netherlands have been battling attempts by Arabs to Islamise the nation for years. The Slavs have been fending off the Caucasians and Tatars for ages. The Balkans have been trying to preserve their integrity against Turkic nationalism. You still think Europeans should be more open minded?
The Britons have it easy. They are an island; no one wants to invade them for the fear of having to feed millions of good-for-nothing chavs and pay for the dental expenses.
@Abdullah
That’s the difference between India and Europe, although India faced more invasions than any other country in the world…If Indians have been Xenophobic or unwelcoming of strangers, the world would have been a VERY different place now. India is/was definitely a case-study for Europeans, in controlling their immigration, although I don’t really have any regrets about India..and like the “Live & Let Live” attitude.
——-
[Quote]You still think Europeans should be more open minded?[Quote]
@Abdullah
I agree! That’s the reason why I said this (Check my last comment) : “It definitely has some advantages, but it’s not really a pleasant experience, for a foreigner (specially, non-whites).”
@Prasanth – yes the welcoming of strangers attitude of India is very puzzling. I read one day a book wich claimed that Indians welcomed strangers because they knew it was no use fighting, foreigns will be changed by Indian culture anyways, India will absorb anything and anybody
That’s not true. The Southern Baptist evangelicals and pentacostals with their campus crusades etc are out there in India to destroy Indian culture with in your face cross planting. This is done with the help of the Christian congress govt.
They have succeeded in the North East. They have succeeded in Chennai, Bangalore, Kerala and KanyaKumai, Andhra, Orrisa …and this invasion continues. Nothing about absorbing desi culture.
Well I was very impressed by the “indianisation” of catholic rites in Pondi and Velankanni for example. Maybe it’s just a matter of time before these other churches blend in desi culture
Its not those rituals that is an issue…or even the deity they pray to.
Its the destruction of the pluralistic culture of “God is one, you may refer to them as Krishna or Jesus or Allah” to a supremacist and exclusive ideology of “My God is the only true one” and the need to culturally convert others into this supremacist ideology. That is unIndian. That is bringing an alien “False God” BS into India. This has taken on an intense and organized effort by foreigners (The American Southern Baptists and Pentecostals, also the Vatican has started to move in that direction to compete with these Baptists).
Most western countries (Where white people live) are economically better off. Moreover Hollywood brings out the life style of “White and western” to the rest of the world. So its not unreasonable for them to think that white people are rich. Its not unlike for many in the west to think brown skin folks must have left their slum-dog lifestyle and have made it in the west.
@manny – yet quite a lot of western people watch Bollywood films, which portrays rich Indian families.
Did you see the house in that movie Kabhi Kushi Kabhi Ghum?
Ha Ha!
BTW, That movie was such a big hit in Germany. From the DVD review of that movie in Amazon.de I was puzzled as to why that movie appealed to Germans so much. I still haven’t figured that out.
Ah yes I love that film, it makes me cry every time.
You know it’s dificult to get Bollywood movies over here, except if you buy pirated versions from your local indian cash and curry. So I guess the film is popular because it’s one of the few available through “normal” film distribution.
Seriously it seems like manny is on a one man mission upholding the white supremacism(dont worry i have read most of your comments) I can understand because you cannot do it on the streets of england so you come online explaining the most basic stuff of white supremacism , after all there is only one Nick Griffin
This blog is about an east-meets-west-love-story. I don’t know why there are so many anti-christian, anti-women messages ?
@ Mohit gupta & prithviraj33
Joanne is right on the count that Indians need to develop a thicker skin when it comes to sport. International and league sports usually invoke a lot of loyalty and patriotism among the players and fans, hence they often end in games of rough one upmanship. If you think the things Indians experience in the cricket is racism targeted against Indians, just watch how things go in a Euro football event. The verbal mud slinging against Indians in cricket would look like a Gandhi march compared to the level of hooliganism and corruption in football, between ‘white’ nations and teams.
Even my own sport, Olympic weightlifting is dirty to the core with corruption, you would feel outraged if you hear some of the stories. You just need to learn to take these things in your stride and not get too offended if they are not actually trying to thwart your chances of winning.
As for Indian men getting a raw deal, I have observed this and found it to be true in a lot of cases. However, putting the blame squarely on ‘racism’ of white people is just not done. Indian men, regrettably, tend to lack comradeship amongst themselves, especially when it comes to money or women. Most of them seem to believe in zero-sum games, they will often try to destroy a friend’s game or put their hand in a friend’s plate if it means a little better for them. These type of people don’t believe in teamwork or the ideals of friendship, for them being a friend is a game of how much you can benefit from the other, rather than a bond of comradeship. With this kind of attitude, you can’t get ahead anywhere in life.
Abdullah ,
Never did I mention the word ‘Racism’ while talking about Nasser Hussein and I am totally convinced that he is not a ‘Racist’.My opposition to what he said is not related to the national pride or ‘Racism’ or something like that.
My only point was that Mr Nasser Hussein and Mr Micheal Vaughan crossed the limit of decency which a commentator/player should maintain when talk about other players.And that is the way cricket has been operated these years.
The only thing I said was that cricket traditionally being a gentlemen game , nobody should take it to the level of other sports where player can even get physical with each other.
I totally disagree with you on the ‘Friendship’ issue when you say that most of the Indian Men are friends with each other for benefit.I simply disagree.Its India where you get the most hear-warming and selfless friendship among people of all ages.The ones you are talking about may exist but only in minority and simply they are not friend if they want benefit in return of friendship.But again It is possible that most of the people you come across are like that.But most of the friends I came across were as selfless as a mother is to her son.
Ultimately , Its a case of luck , good or bad.In the times of degrading family ties , ‘Friends’ are bunch of people whom most Indians rely on in happy and difficult times and this is a fact nobody can twist with one or two unfortunate incidences.
It has nothing to do with the limits of decency. Poms use the same word on themselves , just that they dont take it to heart.They move on and work on it.hey that’s how they ruled the world for 200 yrs.So stop whinging.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2009301/Donkey-Alastair-Cook-gallops-glorious-start-England-captain-Sri-Lanka-sword.html
Oh really ? For your kind of information British people or those of British origin consider the expression ‘Poms’ offensive or racist.From what you wrote I can see that you have nothing to do with either British or Indian people.You just want to wash your hand in the floating “Ganga”
Abdullah, I agree with your comradeship comment. Indians are the first to put each other down and never put up a united front. The funny part of your comment is that the first part proves the second part. You are attacking other Indians for saying the truth. I guess the “Say no to racism” slogan in Europe only applies to blacks?
Abdullah , as I know , is Russian not Indian so his comment doesn’t apply to him.
well I believe he said his father was Indian in one of his posts.
@ Mohit gupta
Well, that has been my observation. I used to get a lot of invites when the Indians I know wanted me to ‘introduce’ them to the European women I knew. After I started turning up at their parties and introduced them to vodka and African ladies, the invites dropped. Of course, I still have some great Indian friends, which is why I am still here.
And another thing, Indian men talk a lot behind each other’s backs. Perhaps its just the ones I knew.
@ prithviraj33
I admire the steadfastness of your beliefs. He was, once upon a time, politically.
” This has taken on an intense and organized effort by foreigners (The American Southern Baptists and Pentecostals, also the Vatican has started to move in that direction to compete with these Baptists).”
Can you elaborate on this piffle you sprout Manny ? Just in case you didnt know Xianity came to southern India 2000 years ago and wasn’t an ‘agenda’ of any foriegner as far as I know.It was the sincere message of salvation spread by a follower of the big man himself.
That Christianity came to India 2000 years ago is disputable. But even if that were true. The Orthodox Syrian Christians are non evangelicals for the most part. Even they were persecuted by the Catholic Church (During the Goa Inquisition). There are plenty of good virtuous organizations like the Quakers who are non evangelical, non persecuting and moral christians.
Are they not Christians?
Nothing wrong with spreading their message is there ? If you’re not convinced just ignore them
Quote:
As Christian evangelists intensify efforts to bring India under their sway, their brethren in the south are trying to (mis)use current excavations at Pattanam to revive the myth of Apostle Thomas arriving in the country in the first century AD and establishing a fledgling community. They are trying to link the ancient port of Muziris with Pattanam, where Thomas reputedly landed, though Muziris was more logically Kodungalloor, where the river joins the sea. Dr R. Nagaswamy, former director, Tamil Nadu Archaeological Survey, debunks this mischief and avers that none of the literature on the life of St Thomas claims that he came to India.
Yet, so strenuously has the myth been perpetuated that Swami Devananda Saraswati (pen name Ishwar Sharan), a Canadian Protestant who became a Smarta Dasanani sanyasi at Prayag in 1977, decided to get to its historical roots. The Myth of Saint Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple (updated 3rd edn.), is the fruit of his labours.
Sharan was intrigued by the story of the alleged murder of the apostle by a conniving Brahmin. In September 2006, Pope Benedict XVI declared that Thomas never came to India, but Rome later fell silent after a nudge from the Archdiocese of Madras-Mylapore. The myth includes the implausible conversion of Tiruvalluvar by the foreign evangelist, though Tamil scholars believe the sage lived around ca. 100 BCE, perhaps even 200 BCE.
The claim that Christianity came to India before it went to Europe is a ploy to make it a sort of native religion, even if it came from West Asia. The origin is a Gnostic Syrian fable, Acts of Thomas, written by poet Bardesanes at Edessa around 201 CE. The text never mentions or describes the sub-continent, but says the apostle went from Palestine eastwards to a desert-like country where people are ‘Mazdei’ [Zoroastrian] and have Persian names. The term India in Acts is a synonym for Asia.
You cherry-pick a couple of quotes from somehwwhere and pass it off as fact hah.For every dissenting opinion out there I can show eminent historians that would say it was probable that Thomas might have come here.Look up the literature.I say probable because it was a long time ago and we can never say for sure except written record and passed down tradition which is again ..corruptible.
Of course the vatican would deny that he landed here 2000 yrs ago lol..they want to bring christendom under the papacy and believe the roman catholic church is the one true church.Why on earth would they admit that a tiny church originated 300 years before their institution’s supposed point of origin ..
LOL
“I say probable because it was a long time ago and we can never say for sure except written record and passed down tradition which is again ..corruptible.”
The whole Christian Myth falls under what you said.
I think you might be a myth as well.Having travelled the US I’ve never come across a conservative hindu athiest with conflicting opinions lol
Give yourself a pinch and see if you vanish into thin air *poof
Some scholars believe that JC himself a wise Hindu sage. It is said that JC spent his youth in India ( the missing years of JC’s life that the Bible won’t talk about), imbibing the ancient Eastern philosophies and Hindu wisdom from learned Hindu sages in India. Thereafter, having become a self-realized soul (a Mahatma ) in India, JC returned to the Middle-East to preach to his people.
JC’s preachings are in harmony with Hindu philosophies :
“As you sow, so shall you reap” : That’s just a another way of stating the Hindu law of Karma.
“Let him cast the first stone, who has not sinned” : Hindu Philosophy believes that the soul undergoes several cycles of birth, death and rebirth, until the soul finally becomes enlightened enough to break free from the cycle of Birth, Life Death and Rebirth (the soul attains Moksha).
Thus, all souls present on earth, are here on earth, only because they are still imperfect, and have not yet attained enlightenment and liberation from the Cycle.
Thus Hindu Philosophy recognizes that there is none amongst us, who is without sin.
This is exactly the point that JC was trying to make, when he said ” Let him cast the first stone, who is without Sin.”
It is also said that JC survived the Crucifixion, and emigrated to the Kashmir region of India, where he lived to a ripe old age. JC is said to have been buried in Kashmir.
Re. becoming Indian, legally anyone who meets the governments criteria for naturalisation can become a citizen of the Republic of India, and will be classed legally as an Indian national. You do not need to be brown skinned to be Indian; you also do not need to grow a moustache.
Re. this discussion which appears to be moving towards religion, have a look at the excellent work by Richard Dawkins:
www. richarddawkins .net
Especially have a look at the sections titles “The Good, The Bad, The Ugly” (hilarious) and “Converts Corner” which is a section containing letters from people who were self-imprisoned by religion and have now been set free to live life to their full potential without constraints.
To borrow a strap line from Christian Aid (ironically): “We Believe in Life Before Death”–I think this sums it up–too many people waste their lives following religion in the hope of escaping hell and living in heaven–in doing so many people forget to live life today. There is no proof hell or heaven exists, however there is proof all around that life is real–so live it!
Then its all the more reason, Hindus should not be targeted for culturally cleansing by the Evangelicals.
Why would anyone in their right mind want to destroy and eradicate the culture that produced Jesus. Hinduism/Judaism. Take your pick.
IF JC lived to a ripe old age, then the whole idea of Christianity falls apart. Think about it.
JC was a good Hindu. JC was preaching Hinduism to his people in the Middle-East.
After JC’s Crucifixion, and subsequent escape to Kashmir, the Unholy Roman Empire recognized that JC and his Charisma could be exploited as a valuable tool to spread the boundaries of the Unholy Roman Empire. Therefore, they charged their Marketing Department (The Vatican) with the task of suitably altering the Bible, so as to make it seem like Christianity was the only game in town. Accordingly, the Vatican disingenuously inserted in the Bible mischievous statements like “You may come to Heaven ONLY though me”, and falsely attributed these statements to JC.
JC being a self-realized Hindu Rishi, was fully aware that there are many different paths for the Aatma to take, on its journey towards enlightenment and the attainment of Moksha. So, JC would have never made a narrow-minded statement like “You can come to Heaven only though me”. This statement was just a marketing gimmick by the Vatican, which was the Marketing Department of the Unholy Roman Empire.
@Chris
It sounds logical, knowing the fact that India/Hinduism is very old and many things in this world are rooted there….but is it your own theory on one of the Jesus Christ’s migration patterns?…I’ve many theories like that about religions or world migration patterns…If it is your own theory, put down a ‘Disclaimer’ saying that it’s yours and not proven. If it is proven, provide sources for that (Real, genuine sources…and not the fake Youtube videos or speculative articles).
They create these stories that Jesus was a Hindu etc…to make it easy for the local Indians to swallow the JC Story.
Nice try though!
Manny, you misunderstand.
I’m actually agreeing with you, that Hinduism is the real-deal. Now, go back and re-read my comments against this background.
If Hinduism is the real deal, why make up some stuff that Jesus was a Hindu and that he lived in Kashmir?
Christianity is a middle-eastern religion and has nothing to do with Hinduism.
there is a complete documentary film about Jesus in India. I had seen it last year either on http://www.1channel.ch or on youtube.
@ Mat Diplo
So true. The religious attitude towards life is fatalistic, rather than living in this world and making it a better place, they are obsessed with preparing some kind of ‘karma’ for the afterlife or next life (even if the ‘karma points’ could be gained by burning, torturing and killing ‘heretics’ or ‘infidels’).
“even if the ‘karma points’ could be gained by burning, torturing and killing ‘heretics’ or ‘infidels’” you will gain the negative points.. it makes afterlife hell and you will be in the loop of ever ending disastrous life on earth.
That why try to do good karma…
peace!!!!
@ seenu
Depends on the religion. In Christianity, killing of ‘heretics’ earns a lot of karma points that make it easier to get into heaven. In Islam and Judaism, the same goes for ‘kaffirs’ and ‘goyims’, respectively. I don’t know a hell lot about Hinduism or Buddhism, so I can’t comment on that.
The reason why people are good is because it is in human interests to live in peace and harmony, rather than constant wars.
[Quote]The reason why people are good is because it is in human interests to live in peace and harmony, rather than constant wars.[Quote]
True, Mr.Abdullah. Like PCness, I would call it ‘Political Interest’. UN is the best example for that.
*Sci-Fi Mode – oN*
Strange are the ways of the world…and I’m really concerned about our Earth, as anything might happen, in the next 20-50 years…In the worst case, we all might get wiped out of the Earth…and maybe influential folks might end up, on a different planet or a space station, for a while.
*Sci-Fi Mode – oFF*
@Abdullah-
‘The religious attitude towards life is fatalistic, rather than living in this world and making it a better place, they are obsessed with preparing some kind of ‘karma’ for the afterlife or next life’
I’ve heard that same theory suggesting Hinduism promotes poverty & ‘backwardness’-
The Samkhya-Yoga stream of philosophers sees the material world (Prakruti) as evil. It is interested in isolating the soul (Purusa) from matter, not in improving our material lives. The Vedantic philosophers go beyond Samkhya in declaring the material realm to be Maya – an illusory appearance.
They accept the First Noble Truth that life in this world IS suffering and, therefore, dedicate their lives to escape life not to improve it. The naked Sadhus are the most honored ones in our melas, because they have (supposedly) renounced the world most completely. They love, value and glorify abject poverty. Therefore, they cannot fight to remove it.
[Quote]I’ve heard that same theory suggesting Hinduism promotes poverty & ‘backwardness’-[Quote]
@Tammy
That’s another Euro-Centric (or Winston Churchill’s) crooked opinion/idea. Our world’s documented history says that India had the highest economy/GDP in the world, until almost 15th century..So, if Hinduism promoted poverty, India would have been a shithole, since the beginning of history. So, nice try!
As for giving up material things, that’s philosophy and there’s truth to that shit…Why do you think I’m not rich & famous?….because I don’t want it..and coz “Good things come in small packages”…If you want me to prove that, just lend me a million bucks and I’ll pass the buck!
@prashanth-y-
Your argument is poor.
‘Our world’s documented history says that India had the highest economy/GDP in the world, until almost 15th century..’
India was under Muslim rule until almost the 15th century also, should we assume India would still have the ‘highest economy/GDP in the world’ if India had remained under Muslim rule?
‘As for giving up material things, that’s philosophy and there’s truth to that shit…Why do you think I’m not rich & famous?….because I don’t want it..and coz “Good things come in small packages”…If you want me to prove that, just lend me a million bucks and I’ll pass the buck!’
Is this the same PRASHANTH that was bragging about his BMW CONVERTIBLE on this very blog? A BMW isn’t what I’d call a ‘small package’? Anyone that would spend that amount of money on a CAR sounds MATERIAL to me.
Third, don’t call me Tammy.
So, nice try Mr prissy prashanth.
I love it when People try to correlate religion with economical variable. It really funny because religion does not directly contribute to the economics of the country, but shapes up the social variable which have direct impact on the definition of “value” for the society and the supply/ demand variables associated with that “value delivery” to the society.
India and China nearly had two third of world’s GDP when Adam Smith was postulating his theory of free trade and America was just born.
In case of India, the trade surplus was created by the evolved design of society which facilitated steady supply of skills, even though they did not offer much value to the person with those skills by means of the caste system. It also evolved specialist who focused specifically on money and trading.
The social set up also emphasized on less consumption, enforced by the religious or social doctrines that made materialism and consumption as a sin.
The system worked perfectly, where powerful got all the wealth, and those on the lower layers of Pyramid provided specialized skill, retained knowledge of generations and consumed less to provide surplus for the people on the top of the pyramid.
Religious and social doctrine worked differently with traders worshiping wealth (Lakshmi) , saving and generating capital.
The set up was destroyed when British came and intentionally disturbed the social fabric. Those areas which quickly came under their control, they employed lower caste men as soldiers and made the regular Kshatriya caste men unemployed. But at the same time, propagated martial caste theory by taking manpower provided by the Kings of Tranvancore (Nair Patallam), Nepal (Gorkhas), Punjab Princely states (Sikhs), Rajputana states (Rajput). They used lower caste soldiers from their own land, read Madras and Bombay.
They slowly started using the natural fissures in the society to divide and fragment the society.They destroyed the indigenous technology and skill set and took steps to make India a market for consumption of Products that Industrialized Europe was now churning.
Let us see how these two countries evolve – China and India. And how different institutions reshape in the changed environment.
Religion as a controlling variable has lost teeth, as British and later Politicians managed to bring forth more variables that would decide the social set up for economic reasons. Some of these variables are language, caste, culture etc.
@veeeeh-
It’s always interested me that the British never managed to ‘fissure’ the Chinese like the Indians. Even when the British resorted to ‘Opium wars’ they weren’t nearly as successful.
@ Tamasha
I think the reason why European powers were not able to dominate fragmented China with weak symbolic rules from Manchuria, is the same reason why British lost America.
Even a small Chinese warlord could stand off against the naval fleet force of few thousands, especially when their supply chain is stretched without any hopes of reinforcement.
However, European powers did manage to place smalls stations like Hong Kong, Macau to continuously weaken the Chinese.
And Unlike India, they never could really rule China, which remained a sovereign state. Its ironic that China was always helped by the outside aggression to come out stronger. It was Mongols who unified and created the present boundaries of China. It was Japanese who again unified Sun Yat Sen and Communists.
However, they seem to have learnt from their history and eliminated any possibility of war lords weakening their country.
This is unfortunately so different from India, where warlords virtually sold off Indian territory to the British direct control. They also continued to provide cannon fodder (read soldiers) for their direct control of this land and overseas military expeditions.
And unfortunately, we have not learnt anything form our history and have still given enough room for these warlords in their new avatars.
The Christian Brits still have not managed to fissure the Indians.
American southern Baptists have managed to do lot more damage though. They used money. They simply paid the buggers. These buggers who converted for money could have been bought by the Pakistanis and the Chinese too. For $18 convert to Pakistan/Chinese ideology, they could have got them too.
@ MAnny – Oddly enough I’ve been living close to baptist or adventist churches for the last 10 years. It’s also growing over here. I’d day it’s not so much about money, but more about comfort and rituals. (The other thing that is growing here is New Age rituals…. some of them loosely inspired by India
)
From the little I know I find Hinduism very difficult to understand. Just like many other Indian things, as soon as I think I understood something, I realize the opposite is also true
And to follow on a previous post of yours, I think the idea of multiplicity of God is perhaps not the most important thing that is being lost when people opt out of Hinduism ; it’s more the diets, the rituals, the way religion is entertwined with every single aspect of life…
I went to India for spiritual reasons and I was impressed by the way spirituality is everywhere in India. Of course we did a lot in France to get rid of the influence of religion which was considered as a burden on individual freedom. But I can’t imagine what India would be without Hinduism….
Tamasha,
It was not so much due to Hindu or Muslim rulers as India was fairly divided among both Hindus and Muslim rulers between 12-15 century. Before 12th century, all rulers were Hindu (although they didn’t use the term “Hindu”).
In any case, only some schools within Hinduism promotes poverty. FYI, Vedas are not “one book” like Bible. For instance, the concept of Maya is from VEDANTA.
The economical growth in India was due to the caste-system, one of the most efficient system ever produced. Not to mention, the dawn of newer modern systems became the dusk of the caste-system. The liberty made the U.S a superpower, it is also the liberty that would result in the decline of the U.S.
@Amit Desai – However, I heard that some people in India opt out of Hinduism in favour of other religions to get out of the caste system…. I also heard that caste system was imported and not originally part of Hinduism.
What are your thoughts about that ?
Imported from where and why? It’s true that some people did opt out, but they were tiny minorities, such as Buddhists of Sri-lanka, and south Indian Christians/Anglo-Indians.
Imported by Aryans invaders in order to control the native Dravidian population. It this correct, I don’t know a lot about history.
You talk about tiny minorities, but Manny seemed to think a lot of people are opting out of Hinduism right now ???
They are opting out cause A village head is paid $3000 to convert 2000 people in his village. So in a weekend the entier village is converted. For $3000.
Jobless youths are paid $8 to get a convert.
You can hire a missionary in India,
Helene ,
Yes , some people opted out of ‘Hinduism’ when organisational structure of ‘caste-system’ became a tool of oppression in the modern India bu some power-thirsty politicians.Historically before the arrivals of Muslims and Christians , even such a moderate and liberal religion “BUDDHA” couldn’t even snatch the followers of Hindu in ancient India when caste-system was intact.
The reason is that profession-based social structure was a welfare state and was not discriminatory but inclusive.And that is why the “Evil Caste System of India” remained in India for most part of the history and was most prosperous country/region in the world with China till British came in 17th century.
About the import of Caste-System , one should give strong evidence for that.To say that caste-system was imported is like saying Americans did 9/11.It all depends from which glass do you see it.
“Import of Caste-system” is mostly based on AIT which itlself is a BS theory with no concrete proof and objective.
Thank you Mohit. What is AIT ?
Aryan Invasion Theory.
@Amit-
‘The economical growth in India was due to the caste-system, one of the most efficient system ever produced.’
Do you have any information to support this statement?
Common sense. The greatest empires decline every few hundred years. The greatest beliefs die out after a thousand year or two.
If you ever find the oldest book of India whatever it may be, it is very likely that you would see a mention of a caste-system in it.
The system that survived that long must have been something.
Amit-
Well, suppose people take reincarnation seriously, and believe that ‘prosocial’ behavior in one life leads to being born into a higher social ranking in the next life. In that case, a caste system with low levels of social mobility raises the marginal rewards for good behavior in this life. The greater the caste stratification, the more people will try to make long-term social contributions. But that is NOT what we see in India.
Economically prosperity comes from productivity. Any system that prevents any group of persons from maximizing their personal productivity hurts the society. Perhaps the rigid caste system in India aided it’s economic demise?
Tamasha ,
“Perhaps the rigid caste system in India aided it’s economic demise?”
This is the most erroneous reason I have heard for the decline of Indian economy.Just to enlighten you and alikes .. here is the real reason..!!!
“An estimate by Angus Maddison argues that India’s share of the world income went from 24.4% in 1700, comparable to Europe’s share of 23.3%, to a low of 3.8% in 1952.”
Any person with an iota of common sense can sense that the reason for economic decline of India was “British-Loot” of India’s money supported by infighting among Indian rulers.
@Mohit-
So how does your ‘British-Loot’ theory of India’s economic decline prove that the caste system was efficient economically and socially?
The caste system was never as rigid as white and black westerners like to think. These racists, to be kind, will flout the caste system in every discussion about India.
Fellow Indians, I suggest we do the same. Let us remind these WESTerners about their wholesale slaughter of Native Americans. The worst genocide in the history of human civilization. Tens of millions perished, and to this day, when whites and blacks rule America, not one of them has made any effort to help the Native population. Alcoholism, introduced by the white man, is rampant and affects over 50 percent of the population. I have visited these “reservations” that Native Americans are placed on and they are just as bad as slums in India. Even worse the people there have no hope. Let us not even go into the 1,000,000 Middle Easterners and South Asians that the West has killed (this continues under the reign of Barak Obama) in the past 10 years.
White women like Tamasha are really the bane of India and Indian Americans. I have met these women in the workplace and in my personal life. Real HATERS, in American terms.
@prithi-nik-viraj whatever your name is this week-
You wrote and i quote-
‘Let us remind these WESTerners about their wholesale slaughter of Native Americans. The worst genocide in the history of human civilization. Tens of millions perished, and to this day, when whites and blacks rule America, not one of them has made any effort to help the Native population. Alcoholism, introduced by the white man, is rampant and affects over 50 percent of the population.’
Nope, 75-90% of the reduction in American Indian population was the result of disease inadvertently brought by the Europeans- smallpox, measles, influenza, whooping cough, diphtheria, typhus, bubonic plague, cholera, and scarlet fever. Europeans did not come to the New World in order to infect the natives with deadly diseases.
Estimates of the Native American population north of Mexico range from 1.5 to 5 million. After a 75-90% reduction of this population by disease the victims of the alleged ‘genocide’ numbered less than 1 million, HARDLY the worst genocide in human history. Try the Jewish holocaust or the mass crimes against humanity and genocide of Africans by King Leopold of Belgium in the Congo if you want to talk WORST GENOCIDE IN HUMAN HISTORY.
Alcohol? Really? Tobacco is native to the Americas, Native Americans taught the Europeans how to smoke it. Thus unleashing one of the top ten preventable causes of death in the world today.
I wouldn’t go around calling people racists or HATERS unless you really know what you are talking about. My father is part Lumbee Indian and Black. Deal with it.
Tamasha,
It’s probable that the rigid caste-system made the economy go down. This is what I alluded as well. The caste-system is one of the best system ever produced, but that doesn’t mean it has always been a good system. From my observation, the good systems may become obsolete and/or bad over the time. Same way, the bad systems may still give some good results. No one exactly knows why.
@Amit-
“The caste-system is one of the best system ever produced, but that doesn’t mean it has always been a good system.”
I’m not sure I understand why the caste system is one of the ‘best system ever produced’.
Please elaborate.
The caste system seems to stifle growth and productivity while arbitrarily excluding one fifth of the population.
Tamasha – pagal gori
Here is a quote from one of the preeminent Holocaust experts -
[B]Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples in furtherance of Manifest destiny constituted genocide. Cesarani states that “in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust”. He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust, who speaks of the “genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States….”[/B]
@Tamasha – Pagal Gori
Estimates of the pre-Columbian population of what today constitutes the U.S. vary significantly, ranging from 1 million to 18 million.
@prithi-nik-viraj- inbred- rajput- lowlife-
David Cesarani is not an expert on American history, he’s a research professor of Jewish history.
Guenter Lewy is a professor of political science and American history at George Mason Univ. Mr Lewy wrote this for the opening of the National Museum of the American Indian -
It is a firmly established fact that a mere 250,000 native Americans were still alive in the territory of the United States at the end of the 19th century. Still in scholarly contention, however, is the number of Indians alive at the time of first contact with Europeans. The disparity in estimates is enormous. In 1928, the ethnologist James Mooney proposed a total count of 1,152,950 Indians in all tribal areas north of Mexico at the time of the European arrival. By 1987, in American Indian Holocaust and Survival, Russell Thornton was giving a figure of well over 5 million, nearly five times as high as Mooney’s. Nevertheless, even if the higher figures are credited, they alone do not prove the occurrence of genocide.
The sad fate of America’s Indians represents not a crime but a tragedy, involving an irreconcilable collision of cultures and values. Despite the efforts of well-meaning people in both camps, there existed no good solution to this clash. The Indians were not prepared to give up the nomadic life of the hunter for the sedentary life of the farmer. The new Americans, convinced of their cultural superiority, were unwilling to grant the original inhabitants of the continent the vast preserve of land required by the Indians’ way of life. The consequence was a conflict in which there were few heroes, but which was far from a simple tale of hapless victims and merciless aggressors. To fling the charge of genocide at an entire society serves neither the interests of the Indians nor those of history.’
Please choose more credible and recent sources for your inane allegations in the future.
@Tamasha – Pagal Gori Rani
There are 2.4 million Native Americans and Eskimos alive today. How could there only be 250,000 at the turn of the 19th century. From my readings there were 300,000 Natives in the California territory alone in the 19th century. WHY ARE YOU LYING?
In other news, Lindsay Lohan, another American gori pagal is trying to enter into a relationship with Indian Vikram Chatwal. She has tried to move into his house and is now trying to upstage his beautiful wife, Priya Sachdev!
@ Tamasha Pagal Gori Rani
Ah I see it was a big “accident”. Your ancestors just happened to shoot the Natives in the face with muskets. They must have tripped and mistakenly pulled the trigger! Oh and they were just trading Alcohol!! They didn’t pawn it off Native Americans!!
So everything your people do is accident and everything Indians do is well-planned evil doing. HAHA. Give me a break.
@prithi-nik-viraj-psycho-creep-
You’re really not much on brains are you.
Well legally I AM A NATIVE AMERICAN due to my father’s tribal affiliation. In fact my father was a tribal council member for 30 years. So if you’d like to discuss NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY, I’m extremely knowledgeable.
California in 1850 became admitted to the Union as the 31st state had once held an Indian population estimated at anywhere between 150,000 and 250,000. By the end of the 19th century, the number had dropped to 15,000.
As elsewhere, disease was the single most important factor, although the state also witnessed an unusually large number of deliberate killings.
My dad’s last name is quite famous among the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina.
@prithi-Nik-viraj-inbred idiot-
Uhhh I guess you can’t read written English too well.
My father’s family IS NATIVE AMERICAN. And yes they do enjoy drinking alcohol.
My mother’s family didn’t come to the United States until 1911.
Rajputs aren’t very fast learners are they?
I feel sorry for anyone who’d get involved with Lindsay Lohan. They must not think much of themselves.
Oh Lord! If I get a penny for every time I hear a white American say they have Native American blood in their bloodline, I could me a millionaire.
IF 10% of these claims were true, the entire American history would be like, when the whites landed on Plymouth rock, they were soon arranged to be married to a Native! LOL.
But you wouldn’t hear so much about they having black blood though!
This is hilarious!
@Manny-
Well, I got the DNA test & pedigree to prove it. And by the way, my Dad is half Black also.
This has got nothing to do with you Tamasha. I am just saying.
I have this theory why many white Americans claim a native lineage while they deny black lineage.
When recent immigrants are told to go home or patronizing asked to learn “English” by some, they are often told to STFU and reminded they too are immigrants. But to inoculate themselves from this, they make this claim.
Also, history of Native Americans is one of bravery and valor for they rather decided to die than be held as slaves.
The probably of white fraternizing with Blacks is lot higher than they fraternizing with Native Americans.
@Manny-
You wrote and I quote-
‘Also, history of Native Americans is one of bravery and valor for they rather decided to die than be held as slaves. ‘
Manny where do you come up with this tripe?
Runaway Black slaves married Native Americans quite frequently.
Native American cultures are extremely varied, quite a few of the Native Americans were enslaved by whites as well as other Native American tribes.
I came up with that tripe from “Democracy in America” by Alexis de Tocqueville. One of the oft quoted historian and the most perceptive book ever written about America and Americans by a foreigner. I paraphrased something he wrote about Native Americans in the US.
You are right, there were exceptions to what I said, but the overall reflections of Native Americans was that they fought rather than be held in enslavement.
In fact Tocqueville explained it as, the Blacks survived by their strategy of acquiescence to overwhelming tyranny while the Natives almost perished by their resistance.
Actually, the Hindus survived from the 700 year Islamic Tyranny and 300 years of Brit Tyranny the way Blacks did in the Americas.
@Tamasha Pagal Gori Rani
The picture you had posted here was of a very BLONDE white woman. There is no way you have any of that blood in you.
You may have a minute amount of Native American blood since whites and natives heavily interbred.
And anyways if you were so mixed why do you care about people bad mouthing goris, you aren’t even one of them!
@Manny-
As I recall Monsieur de Tocqueville described Blacks and Native Americans as “undemocratic”, or without the qualities, intellectual and otherwise, needed to live in a democracy. He also wrote that assimilation would be best for Native Americans although they would most likely become extinct because they were ‘too proud’ to assimilate.
LADIES and GENTLEMAN! I think we have figured out Tamasha here. She is a LIAR of tremendous proportions. She has gone from a pagal gori to a MUTT of some sorts!
@prithi-nik-viraj- complete freakin’ idiot-
You aren’t very good at genetics either are you?
I have blonde hair, green eyes and I ‘tan’ easily. My mom is Dutch & my dad is Native American and Black.
Figure it out dumbass.
Blonde hair is recessive, you aren’t telling the truth here dear!
@prithi-nik-viraj-dumbass-
Blonde hair is recessive. So is my blood phenotype. So what?
Mr prithi-nik-viraj YOU truly are from the shallow end of the gene pool.
The after life in Christianity where you don’t have to worry in this life time. IT would all get better when you go to Jesus ain’t all that different.
Same ole crap!
Yeah I do have concrete proof for that.For Most part of world’s history India has been the richest country.NO ! Its not a hollow patriotic statements but neutral observation of historians and statisticians.And those claims mostly come from western analyst and statisticians.I would like to offer you some of those statements and statistics.
1- According to wikipedia——
“For the next 1500 years, India produced its classical civilizations such as the Rashtrakutas, Hoysalas and Western Gangas. During this period India is estimated to have had the largest economy of the ancient and medieval world between the 1st and 17th centuries AD, controlling between one third and one fourth of the world’s wealth up to the time of the Marathas, from whence it rapidly declined during European rule.”
2- According to economic historian Angus Maddison in his book The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective, India had the world’s largest economy from the first to the 18th century, with a (32.9%) share of world GDP in the 1st century to (28.9%) in 1000 AD, and in 1700 AD with (24.4%).”
3. Wikipedia- “During the Mughal period (1526-1858) India changed between being the first and second-largest economy in the world. The gross domestic product of India in the 16th century was estimated at about 24.5% of the world economy.”
4. Wikipedia-”An estimate of India’s pre-colonial economy puts the annual revenue of Emperor Akbar’s treasury in 1600 at £17.5 million (in contrast to the entire treasury of Great Britain two hundred years later in 1800, which totalled £16 million). The gross domestic product of Mughal India in 1600 was estimated at about 22.6% the world economy, the largest in the world.”
5-Wikipedia -’By this time(18th century) India again had the largest economy in the world, with a (24.4%) share of world GDP, followed by Manchu China and Western Europe.
Now consider this – An estimate by Angus Maddison argues that India’s share of the world income went from 24.4% in 1700, comparable to Europe’s share of 23.3%, to a low of 3.8% in 1952.
So , what kind of Economic and social system was better , is evident from the statistics and comparison.
People can object to a piece of history but certainly can’t change it ..
@Mohit-
How does any of this information you copied from wikipedia prove the caste system was a ‘better’ economic or social system.
The numbers and statistics only show the caste system on seems to efficiently economically redistribute wealth from the poor to rich.
Actually I was just reading a book about this by author D. C. Atri. “The Mukt: The Liberated”, Atri states-
“Due to caste system the optimum efficiency of the majority of population of the country could not be achieved, which rendered the Indian nation poor and politically weak. India as a nation could not face foreign invaders and as consequence the country was enslaved. In case the caste system persists, sufferings would continue,” he feels.
The US had slavery and it was not weak. It still kicked ass!
The bloke who wrote it is an ass!
But still, the caste system like the racism of the west is not something to crow about.
If economic history of India , with a ‘rigid’ and evil caste system , was considered better and bigger than other economies of the world for last 5000 years then its enough evidence to establish the socio-economic structure of India as one of the most-efficient , at least on financial front.
But I don’t see you accepting any positive facts about India.
@Tamasha
OMG, you comin’ up with BMW again, when I didn’t really brag..Anyways, it’s actually a small package, as it has only 2 seats..poor car..LOL! Anyways, you are a master on Red Herring!
Also, this philosophy only preaches to give up material things (which is also one of the main Buddhist tenets) and not to work less or be lazy…So, it ain’t that bad, as you put it.
—-
[Quote]India was under Muslim rule until almost the 15th century also, should we assume India would still have the ‘highest economy/GDP in the world’ if India had remained under Muslim rule?[Quote]
If the GDP under Muslim rule was good, just imagine how great it was, before they came to India for greener pastures.
Also, Muslim rulers didn’t really export and exploit, as much as Brits did.
@Prasanth
Export is good for any nation. China has build huge reserve as absolute money is flowing form other country to yours.
Import is bad as money is flowing out of your country.
And British killed exports and used only Imports, to make India a market for their goods.
@Veeeeh
At those colonial times, ‘Exports’ was something different. When Brits exported food (rice, spices, etc) and other stuff from India, it was for Brits. There was no financial or other gains from that, for India. The worst thing is that, Winston Churchill & Co exported food, when India (Bengal) was suffering from famine and millions were dying. Instead, he helped Greek folks and thought Indians weren’t worth enough. Search for that stuff on the internet and you probably will stumble upon an article on BBC website.
Not exactly, the British taste for Indian textiles menaced to ruin the British economy before they started manufacturing it in Britain.
@Prasanth
As Hélène pointed out, for growth Textile mills at Manchaster and other places, British had to destroy textile industry which had legendry textile products like muslin.
They used India as a base to forcibly produce goods that were in demand at Britain, but could not be produced locally.
These were low tech agrarian products like tea, Indigo. And most of the money was made by the British traders at the cost of local farmers who had to starve and spoil thier agricultural land by growing Indigo.
Indian export of High value items was replaced by the low value commodities.
Unfortunately, we still continue the tradition where we export iron ore to China and Japan. The convert that Iron ore into more valuable products like watches and export to india. The Economic value is created only by creation of “Value” by the society. And value is something for which others are able to pay.
The society and system which converts resources into most valuable form creates more GDP and economic value.
The fact is that Indian system lacks strategic vision like the MITI of Japanese or Chinese systems. Unlike these economies we have not invested in the systems or infrastructure to create values.
@veeeeh-
I looked it up- the East India Company traded mainly in raw cotton, silk, indigo dye, saltpetre, tea, and opium. I’ll bet that was fun sailing with a cargo of salt peter!
@Veeeeh
You folks are not getting my point…It’s not Indians exporting things to Britain…I was talking about the British colonialists in India, exporting it to their motherland, for their own good, while treating Indians as shit. Anyways, I’m not playing “colonialism” card here…Sometimes, looking back, you can move ahead.
I agree with the rest of your post, but it takes good enough time for countries to build up, after a bad/ignorant phase or collapse of infrastructure..India’s progress after independence (around 60 years) is commendable and will take some time, to gradually get rid of its demons. Hopefully!
I get your point and share you hopes
What about China, Japan and Germany! The whole of Europe was devastated by the second world war.
Why they grew and are growing faster!
The very basic fundamentals of the India economy was destroyed for over 150 years during the British Rule.
China was never devastated in the second world war. China was never a colony of other country except for some small parts.
Japan and Germany were colonial emipres themselves. Germany was a very modern country even before the two world wars. Germany had highest number of patents filed in early 19th century.
The war cause destruction for 6-7 yrs but the fundamentals of these two countries were not destroyed. After the second world war, largely due to Cold War, American dollars started flowing into Germany which helped Germany rebuild a strong economy very fast.
British Neither exported nor imported but just Looted Indian money until nothing was left to loot..and then they left India for Gandhi/Nehru to celebrate the liberation of economically barren states of India and Pakistan…!
@prashanth-
Sorry, I’m not buying your lame excuse about the BMW. The only reason to buy a sports car is to show off material wealth and waste petrol. ESPECIALLY a convertible, how impractical can you get? Maybe if you lived in Spain or California it wouldn’t be as ridiculous.
You wrote and I quote-
‘this philosophy only preaches to give up material things (which is also one of the main Buddhist tenets) and not to work less or be lazy…So, it ain’t that bad, as you put it.’
My post did not mention working less or being lazy.
My post was about the different attitudes between Hinduism and Christianity regarding alleviating suffering and poverty. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
@Tamasha
Show off? To whom?…I ain’t that type, lady…I biked to work for a couple of years and I do it now too, when I don’t need the car. Regarding my car, it drinks only 5/6 lts for 100 kms…It’s not American Hummer and we don’t get dirt cheap gallons of gas, like in America (Say thanks to Iraq!). I might be interested in certain things or gadgets, but I was generally talking about that philosophy. When I wrote something about my car, that was related to that context and was my first post, on this blog. So, there’s no bragging. Actually, you are bragging much about that, than me. Also, last year, when a redneck around my place intentionally vandalized my car, I didn’t really care about that, coz it’s just a fu*kin’ car. I don’t treat it like it’s part of my life.
—————
[Quote]My post did not mention working less or being lazy.
My post was about the different attitudes between Hinduism and Christianity regarding alleviating suffering and poverty. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?[Quote]
The real people who gave up material things are living their lives, like a recluse, in the Himalayas and less-human-infected regions of India/world…These are the ones I’m talking about and not the poor ones living in slums of Mumbai or any other place. These people reflect this philosophy. The poverty in India is a problem from India’s history and it’s idiotic, corrupt, dumb politicians and other looters.
And yes, there are different attitudes between Hinduism & Christianity….and that’s how world is…Accept the diversity and be tolerant. It’s just philosophy and has nothing to do with poverty. This philosophy wants us to be simple, not poor. I can also say that this philosophy is helping rich folks like Bill Gates and other millionaires, to do charity work. It’s universal and not limited to Hinduism. Anyways, I guess you are interpreting this from a different point of view than mine…Hence the ‘Clash of Civilizations’.
@prashanth-
You’ve mentioned your car on this blog numerous times. Don’t lie.
Why do you write [Quote] in those stupid brackets?
These are called QUOTATION MARKS “”
When you see quotation marks that means anything between them is a QUOTE. Get it?
YOU are the one that brought the good/bad- right/wrong judgements into this comparison of Hindu and Christian philosophy. NOT ME.
YOU are the one that is therefore NOT accepting diversity nor being tolerant.
The issue is NOT whether Hindu philosophy wants us to be simple, not poor.
The issue is how to explain the apathy if not utter indifference shown to those suffering in extreme poverty in India?
That Hinduism doesn’t view poverty or suffering as something that’s even worth trying to eradicate explains a lot about this mentality.
This is NOT a GOOD thing nor a BAD thing it is simply a DIFFERENT way of dealing with the issue of poverty than most westerners.
This good/bad- right/wrong thinking that many Indians indulge is incredibly childish to me. For a culture so steeped in the wisdom of sages and great thinkers idiots certainly seem to abound.
I think you trying are link the poverty and the religion. i dont think religion is the resons for the poverty or a it wont give any proper answer to eradicate the poverty. the poverty is depend on the under which ruler we are under. how he taking care of the their people. particularly for india unfortunate have bad rulers middle centuries first muslim rulers, second imperial british and now corrupt polticains.
Do you mean to Imply that Hindu and Budhist kings were good?
it is better..
Quote: You’ve mentioned your car on this blog numerous times. Don’t lie.
@Tamasha
I said that only once and it was my first post on this blog…Other times, when I talked about that, it was you who initiated the topic or provoked me. So, you FAIL! If you can prove that I posted more than once (without you initiating/provoking me), I’ll not post on this blog, anymore.
———-
Quote: Why do you write [Quote] in those stupid brackets?
These are called QUOTATION MARKS “”
When you see quotation marks that means anything between them is a QUOTE. Get it?
@Tamasha
True, but there are many users who don’t scan those quotes properly and take it as part of my comment…So, I didn’t wanna be misunderstood as an idiot..LOL..Also, like smiley codes, ‘[Quote]‘ is the code used for interpreting quotes on many forums. I didn’t think you were ignorant…So, I do apologize!
———–
Quote: YOU are the one that brought the good/bad- right/wrong judgements into this comparison of Hindu and Christian philosophy. NOT ME.
@Tamasha
You are the one who initiated this. Here’s how you pulled the trigger: “I’ve heard that same theory suggesting Hinduism promotes poverty & ‘backwardness’”.
I’m not religious and I normally don’t poke my nose into religious conversations, but I wanted to defend incorrect stuff that you said. I know there are hundreds of problems. If you had correctly quoted something (like the caste system, corrupt politicians, etc etc), I wouldn’t have replied to that. Do you know that you are making a gross statement there? ….and I didn’t talk anything about Christianity…So, as usual, you are showing your prowess in the blame-game. You FAIL again!
———-
Quote:This is NOT a GOOD thing nor a BAD thing it is simply a DIFFERENT way of dealing with the issue of poverty than most westerners.
@Tamasha
Western countries NEVER had to deal with such highly populated and highly diverse region. When they had problems or had to deal with crisis situations, they fought wars and wiped out millions of people (including their own), making room for the rest, to live with enough resources and good infrastructure (which happened due to new tech inventions, as a result of wars). The prosperity of India was also a reason (indirect) why they fought wars (WWII)…Lemme explain you how: There was competition to colonize and everyone wanted to go to India, since a couple of hundreds of years back until last century. The kingdoms/countries around the coastal areas of Europe could make it to India and other places, but then Germany was stuck up in the middle and miserable. So, Hitler copied the Swastika and Aryan stuff (by faking Aryan Invasion theory) from India..He also sent his right-wingers to Tibet and India, to create Aryan specimens.
Also, once a country goes into bad/ignorant phase, it will take a long time to build that knowledge base. Why do you think the US/Europe is worried about kids not going to school? It’s really a serious concern for nationalists of Europe/US, as without technology, western world can become a shithole (specially the cold countries, where they have to import all the food from other countries)..And finally, they can’t have or create the latest guns/nukes to scare other countries and bring ‘em to submission!
There’s no denying the success of the western world, but if you only want to denounce everything Indian or Hinduism and talk about poverty sitting on your high horse, you can expect some fanfare.
————–
Quote:This good/bad- right/wrong thinking that many Indians indulge is incredibly childish to me. For a culture so steeped in the wisdom of sages and great thinkers idiots certainly seem to abound.
@Tamasha
There are idiots everywhere and in all cultures…Without idiots, there is no TAMASHA!
So, the final result: TAMASHA = EPIC FAIL!
@prashanth-
I do recall you mentioned you were given better treatment at some swanky chateau/hotel in France after they saw what kind of car you were driving.
Sounded liked bragging to me.
You wrote and I quote-
‘if you only want to denounce everything Indian or Hinduism and talk about poverty sitting on your high horse, you can expect some fanfare.’
India and Indians definitely have a different attitude towards those suffering in poverty than westerners. This attitude of apathy or even indifference is so ingrained it must have a cultural and or religious basis. That is NOT an attack on Hinduism, that is a COMPARISON of a religious viewpoint. YOU are the one that brought up the word BAD in this religious comparison. Different is NOT bad. Learn it.
You wrote and i quote-
‘Western countries NEVER had to deal with such highly populated and highly diverse region.’
Are you aware that India was NOT always so highly populated? Since Independence India’s population has TRIPLED. You can’t blame that on the British. Indians did that to themselves. No economy anywhere can support the tripling of it’s population base in 60 years. Is it any wonder there are so many impoverished Indians? As so much of life in India is based on religious beliefs and practices how India chooses to deal with impoverished Indians is influenced by Hindu philosophy. I don’t see that as an ATTACK on anyone’s religion, simply a discussion.
The rest of your post is such poorly written speculative unfounded drivel it really isn’t worth responding to.
Smarten up Mr prashanth.
@Tamasha
In that context, I’d to talk about that, but anyways I didn’t tell or brag about which car I had..I understand that you are using this, as a last resort to attack me…Now, calm down and lets put this to rest, as I don’t want to talk about my private stuff, on this blog.
As for other stuff, things are always easier said than done and it’s easy to sit on your high horse and judge things. Some of your points actually contradict your opinions..Anyways, I gotta hit the bed now…Yaaaawn…Buenos Noches!
@prashanth-
You wrote and I quote-
‘I’d to talk about that, but anyways I didn’t tell or brag about which car I had..’
You said you weren’t going to write about your car and YET you went on to mention in your previous post that your car has HEATED SEATS! Can’t you see the OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION AND HYPOCRISY?
Quote:
You said you weren’t going to write about your car and YET you went on to mention in your previous post that your car has HEATED SEATS! Can’t you see the OBVIOUS CONTRADICTION AND HYPOCRISY?
@Tamasha
You are the one, who started that…You are the one who decided what car I have…You are the one who said that it’s not usable in winter..and you are the one who decided that it’s crappy! ……I was just responding to your claims, as briefly as possible.
If you have so much time to spout shit on this blog, consider getting a dildo (* PC usage for ‘Go Fc*k Yourself’).
@prashanth-
Really? now you want to bring dildos into the thread too? I’m sure you’re the expert on dildos based on your flaccid posts.
If you don’t want to brag about your car then why do you keep bringing it up?
I’m sure we needed to know that your car has heated seats, that was entirely relevant to the thread and furthers your aspirations of ‘nonmaterialism’. NOT.
That’s because you talked about “Winter”.
@prashanth-
So what if I said ‘winter’ you said you weren’t going to talk about your car. This stereotype of the ‘Indian hypocrite’ certainly seems to be true.
@Tamasha
If you don’t want me to talk about that, stop talking about that more than I do or stop provoking/dominating me. If you continue to do that, I’m gonna unleash @Mohican on a major “Operation Witch-hunt’.
This stereotype of the ‘Yankus Ignoramus’ certainly seems to be true! Che Che
Converting the South American, Centraal America, Mexico, Haiti, Rwanda into Christian countries have not made them any wealthier or better.
China, India are economically growing within a short span of throwing the yoke of socialism/communism. Its economics that creates wealth. Not Jesus!
@Manny-
‘Converting the South American, Centraal America, Mexico, Haiti, Rwanda into Christian countries have not made them any wealthier or better.’
I didn’t claim Christianity made ANY country wealthier or better so perhaps you ought to read my post over again. Take notes if you must.
But now that you mention it in spite of being a minority the 2.3% Christians in the Indian population cater to 20% of all primary education in India, 10% of all the literacy and community health care, 25% of all existing care of destitute and orphans, 30% of all the handicapped, lepers and AIDS patients.
The Hindi Grammar in use today was written by an American Christian missionary, Rev. S. H. Kellogg.
Another American Christian Missionary- Sam Higginbottom – a missionary-professor of Economics at Ewing Christian College (ECC) realized that teaching modern economics to upper caste students was at best a very round-about way of attacking poverty. At worst, it was giving sophisticated tools to forward caste students to further exploit the ignorant backward castes. Higginbottom returned to America, studied scientific farming at Ohio State University and raised $30,000 from churches. He came back to Allahabad, bought the land across the river from ECC, and established what became Asia’s first Agricultural College (The Allahabad Agricultural Institute – now a Deemed University) and an inspiration to Mahatma Gandhi himself. Higginbottom opened his school for all castes – especially those directly engaged in agriculture and related professions. He went beyond education to serve the multitude of despised leprosy patients. Higginbottom’s compassionate leadership skills also resulted in the development of the famous Leprosy Asylum of Naini.
Now Mr Manny, I’m not asking anyone to ‘convert’ to Christianity or Islam or Shintoism.
I am discussing differences in religious philosophy.
An INTELLIGENT comparison of of the philosophies of Christianity and Hinduism would go some thing like this-
The Samkhya-Yoga stream of philosophers view of the world as evil -something from which the soul must escape & be purified from. Suffering is inevitable so it is useless to try and alleviate poverty.
The Christian Bible teaches that the material world is neither evil nor maya. The Creator did not intend human life to be suffering. Suffering originally came (and continues to come) as a result of our sin. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and brought a curse upon us and upon the productivity of the Earth. The Gospel of Jesus is that we do not have to go on costly pilgrimages to find forgiveness for our sin. Because of his grace, God has nailed the curse of sin upon the cross of Jesus Christ. The salvation of Jesus frees us from sin in our lives and heals the curse upon the Earth. Sam Higginbottom began to move the backward peasants forward because he followed Jesus who said, “I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly” (John 10:10).
Now Manny if you can’t reply in a thoughtful and intelligent manner regarding this topic, perhaps you should STFU.
yes as you said the missionery have done great work in india.. but to show what they are doing great work.. they first sent the east india company and find out the weakness( our philoshophy )of the indian people and first exploit them then make them impoverished people then they sent the missionary guys to reconstruct the society. wow!! great work.
@seenu-
Whom is this ‘they’ you are referring to?
The first British Christian missionary to India arrived in Goa in 1519, a Father Thomas Stevens.
The East India Company was granted an English Royal Charter and founded under the name ‘Governor and Company of Merchants of London Trading into the East Indies’, by Elizabeth I on 31 December 1600.
It would seem the British Christian missionaries came before the East India Company, not the other way around.
It would seem the missionaries predated the East India
they here am refering to british misionariies…..and about st. thomas i dont think he came to india. i think there is no full proof historical evidence..it might be construction of British missionaries.
@seenu-
Father Thomas Stevens was a Jesuit and is not the same as St Thomas. St Thomas was one of Jesus Christ’s 12 apostles whom is traditionally believed to have sailed to India in 52AD to spread the Christian faith among the Jews of Kerala. We’re talking about 1,000 years difference in time.
Are you a christian or lapsed ?
@Pox-
Whom are you addressing?
@Tamasha, however some people, even among Christians, object to the way missionaries are using charities to promote their religion ; “we will help you, but first you have to come to church/mosque”. These people are mixing power games with gifts. I personally don’t like it.
haha he’s been rumbled with that post.
The idea that Hinduism preaches suffering is BS. Hinduism is capitalism. It has the Godess of wealth as part of the religion. Wealth creation (economics that create wealth) is Hinduism. You are mixing the foreign marxist culture that was brought into India by the Nehrus and Beangalies of India into India kept 600 million in abject poverty. After the Christians were in India for 300 years. All that was left when they left were few Jute factories in India.
As far as educational system is concerned, almost all of them were to prepare Indians to do clerical jobs. No professional schools. Thats why most of the Engineering and other professional schools today are non Christian.
If you want to continue becoming educated for clierical position join the christian colleges.
Read about Macaulite and his motive for the kind of educational system for Indians.
Again, Almost all Christian countries in South America and Haiti are still rolling in shiit! Maybe if they were Hindus, Atleast they won’t be kiIIing one another there.
Manny, I don’t think the explanation is as simple as that. In addition native faiths in South America and Haiti are neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim.
Ah, so all credits for good things go to Christianity and all bad things are due to their native culture. I get it!
Oh la la, Manny, where on earth did you see me imply such a thing ?
I meant there are in the sh*** as you say, probably more because of economic raids (colonisation) than other things. Plus their native religion is animist, and I have a deep interest in shamanism.
Maybe, those Kashmir Muslims should be converted to Christians. Jesus died for their sins and took all their sins with him.
Ha Ha!
So, why not start with converting your in laws to Christianity and save their souls?
@Manny-
What do my in laws have to do with this conversation?
If you can’t justify bringing my Kashmiri Muslim in laws into this thread I’ll have to assume you’re just a BIGOT making a lame personal attack. Again.
Deities of wealth in Hinduism, or religions that promote capitalism are not the topics addressed in my post.
How Hinduism and Christianity view and deal with those suffering in poverty is the issue.
What an idiot.
We all are born and suffering is part of life is nothing but the other side of the coin “Pursuit of happiness”. If we were all born happy, what is there to pursue.
Almost every Hindu I know of pursue happiness. No Hindu I know of accepts suffering.
What a Jerk!
The fact remains that hinduism is discriminatory and thus nothing but a human construct.End of story.:)
The christian god is discriminatory and a petty ego maniac. Who in their right mind would send others who do not prostrate the egomaniac to eternal hellfire?
@Manny-
‘No Hindu I know of accepts suffering.’
So why don’t some of those Hindus you know that don’t accept suffering help the 1,000 Indian children that die every day due to easily preventable diseases like diarrhea?
They do..But more than half of India follows the Nehruvian communism..
The Christian congress party that has been in power for almost all the time suffers from munchausen syndrome by proxy. They need the 600 million living in abject poverty to stay in power. So their economic policies have always been to keep the 600 million to live in dirty poor.
Religious Hindus in India are minorities. They are not the majority.
The Majority in India are anti Hindu socialst/commies.
I was addressing you Tamasha
Please could you all kindly explain the following concept: “Suffering originally came (and continues to come) as a result of our sin. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and brought a curse upon us and upon the productivity of the Earth.”
Surely this is like saying to someone that their great grandfather killed someone so they, four generations on should be punished–why should mankind be punished for some sin that Adam or eve committed? If we are all free thinking individuals with free will then this is an immediate flaw in the bible. If we as humans would find this concept of perpetual punishment over generations absurd, surely God would too.
Perhaps this is just a man-made story and the writers did not notice their fairytale flaw?
Furthermore, if Adam and Eve were the only two humans on earth, did their offspring have to inbreed in order to populate the earth? If so then I am extremely pleased to be descended from apes rather than just two individuals. Or is Adam and Eve a generic term for human, in which case we go full circle back to the evolutionary theory of survival of the fittest and natural selection. The fact that people of different races are breeding and producing half white, half ethnic offspring is proof of evolution in progress.
To a scientific minded person, the concept of Adam and Eve or some talking snake in a tree is more like the jungle book than real life. What is more absurd is that billions of people believe this. I have never been able to grasp this concept of being punished for one’s ancestors’ sins–it seems morally wrong and robs individuals of true free will. I am inclined to say all religion is made up, but that is just my personal opinion.
Each to their own I guess–as long as we’re all merry and happy.
I’m completely with you on this one Mat Diplo! I just don’t agree with that whole concept either. In fact it gets me very annoyed. A prime example of something that has been going on in Australia in recent times — forcing the Australian government to issue a public apology to Aboriginals on behalf of the white people who came from England and took away their land and treated them badly. As far as I’m concerned that is such a ridiculous thing to do! What’s the sense in making a current government (which didn’t even exist then) apologise for the sins of people in the past. It’s the same as people who hold grudges against certain nationalities because of things their countrymen did in the past — it’s the past people, get over it. But it’s even more nonsensical to me because I believe in the concept of reincarnation — who is to say that we weren’t another nationality/race/religion etc. in our past lives. I’m sure I wasn’t always white Australian!!!
Yes I 100% agree re. the Aboriginals and also with Indians and British–the past is the past–forget about it and be decent to each other from now on. What someone’s great granddaddy did is of no concern today. However, I would say instead of an apology, what does need to be done is ensuring that there is equality regardless of race, religion, colour, disability etc in every country, including India, UK, Australia, worldwide in fact. But this Biblical original sin business is flawed…if you look at it in detail, it means man has no free will and that he should be punished just for being born–what a load of silliness.
Oh…actually I just realised man does NOT have any free will at all because he has to say “YES DEAR” to his wife ALL the time
!!!
Interesting… Much like my frens who visited UK or NZ keep thinking that they belong there, when they never ever will be accepted…
@ TAMASHA!
Interesting. It is probably the hope of a better afterlife that prevents violent revolutions in India against the exploitation of the poor by the rich. I have observed how exploitatively and inhumanely rich Indians treat their servants, yet these servants stay as loyal and subordinate as ever (barring isolated incidents).
@ prashanth
The economic markers in the 15th century world were never ‘well documented’. The statistical methods and economic indicators as we have today were not available in those times. Moreover, the entire world was mired in poverty, religiousity and fatalism in the days before the Renaissance so the point is moot anyway.
@Abdullah-
I think Arvind Adiga did a fairly good job in his novel ‘White Tiger’ describing the almost ‘feudal’ system that rich Indians use to keep servants loyal and subordinate. My servants here in Nepal and India are often the sole financial support of their entire extended family back in the ‘village’. I’m sure that keeps the pressure on.
You want to see Feudal system. Here you go. Its your Muslims cousins who are master of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyGnM4vyUO0&list=FL7ajHF5daiCUuy5OlIIxUAA&index=18
@Manny-
I don’t have any ‘Muslims cousins’. The only blood relative I have that is Muslim is my son.
Even your personal attacks are STUPID, Mr Manny.
Please STFU unless you have something relevant to the thread to say.
Abdullah,
This is not about comparing GDP’s or HDI we do now to measure wealth or living standard. This is also not about claiming that the whole world was poorer before 17th century. India has been a ‘special entity’ and didn’t always fit the traditional Euro-centric view, that the world was poor etc.
If you analyze the evolution of the caste-system, it can be seen that caste-system, which may have been a race-system (literally called ‘appearance-based system’) evolved into profession and rank based system.
1. Caste-system had been further divided into hundreds of sub-castes.
Logic: Say there was a huge massacre in some parts of Punjab or plague in few villages of Orissa and all the Brahmins (doctors) died. Who’s going to treat the patients now?
Solution: A rank/profession-based caste divided into sub-castes. This way, if some doctors died, there is no lack of doctors as sub-castes inherited all the medical knowledge and are spread throughout India. Just go to a near by village to get a doctor or even his 14 year old son.
2. Caste-system had been a sustainable solution both socially and economically.
Logic: An agricultural village needs 7-8 basic kinds of people: Teachers, doctors, traders, farmers, soldiers, skilled labourers, and peasants.
Solution: The caste-system evolved to accommodate all these basic professions (economical byproduct). The people who couldn’t fit into any of these professions became ‘untouchables’ (social byproduct).
3. Why didn’t other cultures evolve into India-like caste-system?
There are many cultures that have traces of India-like caste-system. Japan and Persia are two examples. However, due to the deep-rooted agricultural principles, India institutionalized the caste-system more than anyone else as early as 8000 years. I guess those Indians must have had benefited from it a lot. Hence, it is probable that India did achieve unusual prosperity or at least, was known for its prosperity in the past.
@Amit-
You wrote and I quote-
‘due to the deep-rooted agricultural principles, India institutionalized the caste-system more than anyone else as early as 8000 years. ‘
Well you’re going in the right direction I’ll grant you that.
India achieved ‘unusual prosperity’ and still quite rich because of it’s prime real estate location.
Like other ancient river valley civilizations (Egypt and Mesopotamia) India has a temperate climate, adequate year round fresh water supply, great soil that is refreshed by effluent of the Himalayas yearly, long growing season – all aspects that make for an agricultural/food surplus. It is this agricultural surplus that allowed a ‘priestly’ class and a ‘warrior’ class, etc. to evolve. If there’s plenty to eat and you don’t have to worry about staying warm in winter too much you can afford such ‘luxury’ classes. Add to this the relative protective isolation provided by the highest mountain range in the world as well as 2 oceans and you have lots of time to sit around and philosophize. The only thing the rigid did for Indians was reinforce the values of nepotism and a propensity towards inbreeding.
Another quote from your diatribe-
‘The people who couldn’t fit into any of these professions became ‘untouchables’ (social byproduct).’
It was more like the people whose occupations were regarded as ritually impure, such as any involving leatherwork, butchering, or removal of rubbish, animal carcasses, and waste became the ‘untouchables’.
It’s called Maslow’s Hierarchies of Need!
The reason, Hindus were philosophers was, because their basic needs were met.
That’s like saying. Americans are rich, because they occupied a rich land! That American’s didn’t have to work for it. Pffft!
What a ridiculous statement… inbreeding??
This is FAR more common amongst whites, blacks and Araabs than it is with Indians. In India there is the concept of ‘gotra’ which has been around for thousands of years and specifically prevents inbreeding.
Medical research results show a particular genetic past that has resulted in unique genetic risks specific to an unmixed tribal-dominated society: Indian inbreeding.
Researchers’ work also has surprising and important medical implications. They discovered that many groups in modern India descend from a small number of founding individuals, and have since been genetically isolated from other groups. In scientific parlance this is called a “founder event.”
Founder events in other groups, such as Finns and Ashkenazi Jews, are well known to increase the incidence of recessive genetic diseases, and the study predicts that the same is true for many groups in India. “It is important to carry out a systematic survey of Indian groups to identify which ones descend from the strongest founder events,” said Reich. “Further studies of these groups should lead to the rapid discovery of genes that cause devastating diseases, and will help in the clinical care of individuals and their families who are at risk.”
BAKWAS !
BAKWAS !
Hehe, Mohit do you know this has become my new favourite Hindi word lately! It has joined my collection of other favorite “b” words: bewakuf, batameez, basharam (please excuse spelling errors!). 8)
@ TAMASHA!
Hate to butt in, but thats the lamest argument you could have come up with, Tamasha. Its a BMW coupe, not a Hummer. Save the sermons on practicality and wastefulness for your own countrymen (and women), they need it the most, given the financial quagmire they are in. If people in the second and third world want to buy coupes and have the money to afford them, so much power to them.
As for the rest of your arguments, I completely agree with you.
@Abdullah-
Ummmmmmmm in case you had not heard the ‘Hummer’ was discontinued in 2009.
Mr prashanth sermonizes-
‘As for giving up material things, that’s philosophy and there’s truth to that shit Why do you think I’m not rich & famous.because I don’t want it..and coz “Good things come in small packages”If you want me to prove that, just lend me a million bucks and I’ll pass the buck!”
All the while spending $$$ on a convertible sports car? BMW convertible coupes aren’t exactly bargain priced be they 1 series or the ‘Roadster’. What a hypocrit.
Americans are blatantly materialistic as are most of the Russians I’ve met. That’s not hypocritical..
@ TAMASHA!
BMW convertibles are luxury coupes, not a sports cars. And yes, I agree, if he professes giving up material goods but drives BMWs, it is kind of hypocritic. I missed that part.
As for Russians being as materialistic as Americans, you got it wrong. Russians are consumerists, we like to enjoy the good things with the money we earned, but we don’t value money above our souls.
@Abdullah-
The BMW M Roadster, BMW Z1, Z2, Z3 & Z4, are coupes, available as convertibles and are DEFINITELY sports car. You’re right though he probably has that crappy 1 series convertible coupe. Still it’s a grossly impractical car if you live where it snows.
I don’t know if I’d describe Americans as valuing $ above their souls. It is true that ‘you are what you drive/buy/wear’ in the United States. That’s your entire identity in the US, how much and what kind of crap you buy.
Russians and Americans are similar in that nobody really cares where you got the $ though.
HAHAHA…You folks discussing what car I have..LOL…Look at Tamasha..She already knows what car I have and she’s sure that it’s crappy (*resorting to personal attacks*)…You folks know nothing about me..I was just defending/supporting what I partly believe…I wasn’t preaching…So, stop resorting to personal attacks/insults. By doing that, you not gonna win the argument…Again, nice try Tamasha…Your above comment really made Tamasha out of Tamasha! bruhahhahahha
———-
“Still it’s a grossly impractical car if you live where it snows.”
@Tamasha
Who said you can’t use the car in the winter? It has seat heating too…And you know how fun it is to drift the car, on snow filled roads or parking places?
@prashanth-
Saying that you ‘probably’ have the crappy 1 series BMW is NOT a PERSONAL ATTACK, it is however an attack on the BMW 1 series.
You really have problems comprehending written English don’t you Mr prashanth.
Not really. its an attack on him too. Its saying that he could not afford anything better than BMW 1 series and somehow he is less of a person…since could proally afford something better.
Nice try Tamasha! You are just like the rest of us. Nasty!
It looks like Tamasha has gotten out of hand in my absence here…
You guys really must learn to strike back hard against American gori women like Tamasha. Don’t worry though, the Rajput has returned, and I am ready to take down another enemy of India.
Bol Bajrang Bali Ki Jai!
Jo Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal!
Did you ride in on an elephant brandishing a sword?
LOL
That cracked me up.
Go Prithvi!
@prithi-Nik-viraj- whatever-
That’s right I’m on a rampage!!!! I’m a white woman out of control reforming South Asian culture at your peril!!!
My district here has been the first ‘Open Defecation Free Zone” in Nepal!!!!
Beware, Tamasha and her team of Sanitation Commandoes are on a rampage!!!
Poop free and Proud!!! Jai Nepal!!!
For that I’ll give you one Plus point.
You just went from – 10 to – 9 in my eyes!
In circa 1700, India had a larger share of economy not because it was wealthy and efficient, but because Europe was as poor as India was; held back by feudalism, religious lunacy and Bourgeois warmongering. In the race of snails, India was the faster snail.
In 1952, India was still a feudal and agrarian economy while Europe had trasitioned to a post-Renissance industrial economy with exponentially more wealth than it had in the 1700s. Hence, India’s share, which would have been 30% in the old system, fell to 2%.
India is not the only country to be ‘looted’ by imperial powers. Brazil, Argentina, South-East Asia, East Europe, South Europe – all of them faced the same ills of imperialism that India did and yet, they prospered. The progress of South Asia and the pan-Islamic world isn’t hampered by ‘the great imperialist evil’, but by their self-sabotaging attitude towards life.
Mohit Gupta, the argument you used is a logical fallacy (Fallacy of False Cause), not common sense. Percentages are relatives not absolutes. If A has 2 rupees and B has 1 rupees, B has 33% of the combined money. If A gets richer tomorrow and has 20 rupees and B doubles his money to 2 rupees, B now has 10% of the combined economy. The statistically inept simpleton might be persuaded to believe that B has been loothed of his 23% by A.
@Abdullah
Spot on…….India was a giant in a predominant Agrarian word. But post Industrialization, its slipped behind drastically. Infact, as you rightly pointed out, Our GDP growth could not match the newer economies build on the back of the Industrialization.
And you clearly explained the argument inn terms of percentages.
In a long run, institutions designed for an Agrarian economy based model have actually proved counter effective in the new Paradigm.
- The backbone of simple agrarian world model was based on a fatalist and Karmic philosophy, which decided ones position in the social strata, without asking questions to the keepers of this religious dogma.
- The world here had gone so passive, people focused on their skills and lived in their simple world. They learnt to assimilate any discontent because they were supposed to fight. It was job of certain caste to fight. This was so different from other worlds where peasant and serfs went to battle ground, if needed. The entire country men could respond to the counter resistance movement. This was basis of many revolutions in the west, America where rag tag farmers destroyed Imperialist forces to usher in the new era. The collective people had say in the direction, the country would take. In contrast, Indians would be better with a non violent movement and would still leave the governance or policy issues to the aristocratic feudal group of people after independence.
- In this caste based society, the collective civic sense was lost, because people expected someone from the lower class to clean their shit. This is one major reason why India is pathetic in terms of infrastructure to handle and manage human waste. And as long as caste divisions are rooted in the society, i don’t see anyone investing in this.
- The caste based society is still putting pressure to retain the caste based skills, which were useful in the agrarian world but not in the new paradigm where efficiency of resource conversion and fact costs involved in the conversion process are important. We still have not worked to create systems to generate skills important for the urbanized world. And most of the population is still in the rural world with minimal contribution to the GDP. This is a horrendous waste of human resources.
- This collective psyche driven by deep rooted caste system has also made an average Indian a passive creature, who always does not take ownership of any action that defies the established institutions, and any change has to be driven by someone else. India still looks forward for leadership and the investment in making leaders is minimal in the evolved Indian society.
- The whole caste based skill retaining system also prevented any documentation or Knowledge retention of the skills and technology. The result, we have to rediscover ancient metallurgy techniques and other important techniques which could be useful in the new paradigm. And the whole system assumed that son of a barber would be a good barber. This is a sheer waste of human potential. Many techniques were lost in this system as knowledge system was absent, knowledge passed from father to son.
- The caste system based model was devoid of social justice. If means justified ends, then we could condone slavery, or Hitler..for they created wealth for their nations. Even now, you would see hypocritical cry of certain people against the reservations to the lower castes. This is funny because for thousand of years the educational systems and jobs with administration of kings was 100% reserved for certain communities only. History repeats itself, and now reservation has moved from certain castes to some other castes with intention of bringing in social justice.
As stated earlier 20% of the people would enjoy the wealth , maybe 40% middle class would continue to grow slowly, existing to make 20% richer while another 40% will continue to live in absolute misery.
But then Indians have perfected the Philosophy “If money could only bring happiness!”
I like your analysis and your perspective about waste.
@veeeeh-
That’s the best explanation I’ve heard about Indians lacking civic pride-
“In this caste based society, the collective civic sense was lost, because people expected someone from the lower class to clean their shit.”
That was a big issue here in Nepal to find ‘sanitation commandoes’ the whole issue of dealing with human waste is so taboo because of caste. We ended up bringing in Dalits all the way from the Terai to train as ‘sanitation commandoes’.
That’s also interesting about documentation of knowledge, never writing down in a precise manner technical skills and procedures. I’ve noticed that even culinary techniques aren’t written down in detail. Following a recipe is a ‘modern’ and ‘foreign’ idea. What you get at most is a list of ingredients. My teenaged nieces and nephews in Kashmir had no idea what a ‘recipe’ was. It’s a shame because learning to follow a recipe is such a great teaching tool. Seriously, my Kashmiri in laws were amazed I taught myself to cook so many Kashmiri dishes- like they think culinary skills are coded in your DNA or something. I find it quite interesting that they don’t seem to understand that you can LEARN to do ANYTHING systematically.
“In this caste based society, the collective civic sense was lost, because people expected someone from the lower class to clean their shit.”
That’s the best explanation I’ve heard about Indians lacking civic pride-
——————————————————————————
That’s the worst FILMI explanation I’ve heard about Indians lacking civic pridE.
I have observed , Tamasha and Veeeh have formed a mutual admiration society where they pariase each other to the extent of being blind to the facts.
Perhaps you can offer an explanation then ?
If I were PM of India , India’s civic sense of responsibility would be the first thing I would address ..improving that alone would enhance India as a potential destination for more tourism , business , sports-events , investment even immigration ..it truly is an assault on the senses when anyone offshore visits the place.
@Mohit-
Seriously, how would YOU get Indians to stop throwing their litter, peeing and pooping everywhere?
@ tamasha
I know you have asked this to someone else, but let me answer from my experience. In a typical Indian household, its job of mother and sister to keep house clean, cook and do laundry. The men are neither accountable nor responsible for the job of house keeping. the result is that they throw their clothes wherever they want. They are horrible with the housekeeping. I have heard my sister complaining. Infact whenever we had a fight, I used to pull the sheets and throw things around and run away, for she has to do everything.
But things changed when my dad made us accountable for housekeeping of a room each. He had weekly inspection to see who has done the good job.
The point is, most of Indians may be great in personal hygiene or cleanliness of their house.
But they expect the collective, common area outside to be cleaned by someone else….so its OK to litter, poop or pee, for its someone else’s karmic area.
@veeeeh-
‘But they expect the collective, common area outside to be cleaned by someone else….so its OK to litter, poop or pee, for its someone else’s karmic area.’
Well, ok.
But the peeing and pooping isn’t just smelly or unsightly, it is a PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS in India.
Gandhi wrote on Indian unhygienic habits in 1925-
‘The cause of many of our diseases is the condition of our lavatories and our bad habit of disposing of excreta anywhere and everywhere. Sanitation is more important than political independence.’
According to the Government of India’s statistics, 10 million cases of diarrhoea, more than 7.2 lakh typhoid cases and 1.5 lakh viral hepatitis cases occur every year mostly due to unclean water supply and poor sanitation. UNICEF has found that every day 1,000 Indian children, younger than five-years die of diarrhea and other diseases caused by poor sanitation.
Apparently no one is cleaning anyone else’s ‘karmic area’.
Why doesn’t India have any notion of PUBLIC HEALTH?
I mean most Indians seem very concerned about diet and other health concerns. Why can they not see the connection between poop and pee everywhere and infectious disease?
I completely agree with you. I was selling RO based water treatment plants (Both domestic and Industrial), softener plants, Effluent treatment plant and sewage treatment plants.
I am aware of the high pesticide and microbe count in the ground water. Its usually much higher in the rural areas where people openly defecate in the fields.
Microbes can be handled by the reverse osmosis membrane, but not pesticides. The whole Indian population is sitting on a time bomb of sorts. People consume unsafe water in many areas, but I am expecting it to become a HUGE problem, considering the higher than usage of pesticides and also of the poor sanitation.
Thee point is that its hopeless, even if you build a toilet in a village, after few days it turns so atrociously horrible that no one can step inside it. And people start defecating outside!
The root cause, someone else from the low caste is needed to clean their shit!
Stop spreading lies Veeeh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Xgc4ljHKM&list=FL7ajHF5daiCUuy5OlIIxUAA&index=14
@veeeeh-
‘The root cause, someone else from the low caste is needed to clean their shit!’
I guess it’s too much to ask Indians to be responsible for their own mess?
Well they raise pigs in concrete pens that ‘flush’ in the US. Maybe someone needs to create a self cleaning toilet for India?
Have you seen the ‘Ecosan’ composting toilet? I want one!
http://southasia.oneworld.net/fromthegrassroots/eco-friendly-toilets-in-rural-india
“The root cause, someone else from the low caste is needed to clean their shit!.”
So you assume that SHIT happens because of High-Caste only ? Its truly funny that how a person can write such filmy statements deserving to be in Bollywood flick on Casteism like “Aarakshan”.
Go ahead, ban me. I don’t care and honestly don’t read most of your messages.
The point of argument is who takes the ownership of cleaning the human feaces.
If you had ever lived in a village, you would know what its like to walk on the village roads. So keep your urbanite world view, your ultra nationalism, your hindi expertise and your Bollywood inspired tirades to yourself.
As Manny rightly said, I am untouchable for few Brahmins, Baniyas and Rajputs. So don’t touch me.
As far as giving excuse that low caste people also shit, yes they do. And your question what they think when they shit…..ask it to them!
I am happy with my untouchable status.
@veeeh
our politician taken the caste card as political tool and manipulated the people of india. that is the one of the main reason we are still in this state.
and your argument full of playing caste card. just like our politicians. they didnt done anything. and your argument also wont give any concrete solutions.
by reading argument higher caste people always expecting the lower caste people to clean there filth that is your assumption. keep it ur self.
people of india (whether it is lower or upper caste) they are expecting the our government and it munciple corporation take care of all these things. and certainly they are not to excepting you or TAMASHA to clean there shit. ok
@ Tamasha
The point is that you don’t see the practice of one human carrying and cleaning the excrement of another individual in the modern world. And since it is supposed to be a low caste untouchable’s job, there has been no investment in this area to make the manage and dispose the human waste. There is no mechanization, and no infrastructure to handle human waste.
I have seen some close knit systems in private company townships, in places where they want to conserve water. Sewage treatment plant’s water is used for recycling..particularly for agricultural usage. There was however, simmering tension as that water was used by the temple in the township. The water would be probably more cleaner than any other source they would use.
The Reverse Osmosis and Demineralization plants were used in the tertiary state of the Sewage and effluent treatment to create drinking quality water.
The solid waste from the process was used in creating a marshland with its own ecology. It can also be used as landfill.
Believe me Panchayat’s have funds and power to make public toilets, and school children can be influenced early on for proper toilet training as well as for the civic sense.
Even the technology exists for every village to have systems to be self sufficient in power by using biofuels (And yes human waste is a good fuel and can be used to generate power), wind mills.
Investment in water management techniques like drip irrigation, rainwater harvesting, recycling of water from tertiary treatment of Sewage treatment plant.
The technology and system exist to create wealth from the human waste. But since this is an activity associated with low caste untouchables, there is not going to be substantial investment from the private sector or government sector.
Private sector tanker networks probably collect the sewage from the septic tanks and I doubt , how they process it and convert it to something useful – power, manure. And this private sector is limited to urban areas only.
Its a nightmarish experience to walk on any small road to any small typical village in India as one has to walk through human excrement. One is filled with such a disgust, that at times I feel like mutilating my feet.
One this problem comes to the public domain, its a line of business that is associated with low caste, and strangely the human waste management is still manually done!
@Tamasha
The private enterprise in India is proactive and does not fail to exploit any economic opportunity. But the impact of caste based belief system is so high that certain trades are deemed untouchable. Thats one reason why muslims have near monopoly of leather processing trade, for high caste Hindu’s will not touch cow hide.
You are seeing Human waste as a hygiene issue, I am going beyond it and seeing it as an economic opportunity. Imagine how much power can be generated by the human waste of one billion plus humans! And don’t forget the Ash generated could be used for the building materials and also the landfills.
This along with animal waste can generate enough methane to be most of the villages to be self sufficient for cooking gas. They don’t have to strip of already bare land for firewood.
But the reason why no one has exploited this opportunity or even experimented to create an mechanized apparatus for collection and transformation into something valuable (like power or organic manure and water), is that like leather its an untouchable business.
And as usual, I have seen Multinational companies making forays into the country slowly. They will however make money for the multinational corporations.
And yes caste system is past its due expiry date. The country needs a think tank of economists, sociologiests, industry representatives and special interest groups to debate and evolve more adaptive social, economical and Political system.
Another lie from Veeeh.
One of the biggest leather exporter from TamilNadu is a Brahmin.
Stop making things up Veeeh.
“The country needs a think tank of economists, sociologiests, industry representatives and special interest groups to debate and evolve more adaptive social, economical and Political system.”
Ah..recommendation for a committee of pontificators!
BARF!
What the country needs is more wealth creators and less “Pseudo Intellectuals”. India is over flowing with “Pseudo Intellectuals”
Bay-Veeeeeeeh !
“The point of argument is who takes the ownership of cleaning the human feaces.”
If point of argument was such simple why did you brought “CASTEISM” in the simple issue of sanitation ?Indians generally do lack civic sense.Simple ! Why should you behave ULTRA-ANTI-UPPERCASTE , ANTI-INDIAN ?
When did I show my Hindi expertise to you and how does it relate to the topic? And why should I keep it to myself when many people can benefit from from it ? And what has “SANITATION” to do with my apparent ULTRA-NATIONALISM ?
You are fit to be a superstar in India’s first Caste-Fiction Fantasy Movie “Caste-Away”
There is a difference between leather exporting and leather processing!
I don’t make up things like you and blame it on the LEFT or CONGRESS.
As i said earlier, I am your untouchable, So stop touching me Brahmin boy.
Nice Try Veeeeh!.
Your perpetual lies would be called out, every time!
So try containing yourself.
And BTW… if Brahmins do not want to touch cowhides, why would you try to present that as something bad? Are the Muslims being uppity by not wanting to touch pork/Pig.
@ Tamasha
this is for you.
ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS
Problem statement – Indians have a poor civic sense.
Why – Why Analysis based root cause
1) Man
He poops, pees and litters without any restrain
why?
He is not responsible for cleaning it.
Why?
Someone else will do it
2) Machine/ Equipment
Does not have access to toilet
why?
Costs money?
Why?
Cheaper to litter , pee and poop outside.
3) Environment
Agrarian practice
why?
Night soil, recycling and organic farming
why?
Better renewable farming technique
4) Management systems
No micro management of sanitation
why?
Government should do?
Why?
No private participation?
Why?
Lowely job
why?
Associated with human waste
5) Methods
Create toilets, but people son’t use it?
Why?
They are not clean?
Why?
No one knows who dirtied it?
Why?
Its common toilet.
Possible solutions -
1) Increase the cost associated with littering, peeing and pooping by enforcing fines. Will this happen? Never and needs another root cause analysis.
2) Increase individual ownership by focusing on individual toilets than common ones.
3) Increase Private participation in the human waste management
4) Change the agrarian habit by reorientation and conditioning at schools and village women self help groups.
@veeeh-
I’ve heard the ‘it’s cheaper to poop, pee and litter everywhere’ analysis before but I still think it’s got to be a CULTURAL CHANGE IN MINDSET as well as a government enforced one.
I was talking about this on another blog also and a woman by the name of Nandini posted-
“That means nothing. I am Indian, Taj Mahal is in India, that doesn’t make Taj Mahal my property. If I spit at my house, I will be the person who will have to clean it because it is my property, if someone else spits on my house, I may slap him, because it is my house. If same person goes to Taj Mahal and spits on its walls, I won’t care. Why should I care? I don’t get any revenue or sort of comfort if or not a tourist visits Taj Mahal.”
Something about the Indian subcontinent seems to breed tiny minds with selfish outlooks. It’s not just the ‘lefty’ government.
@Manny
Ahh so the Brahmin boy is finally projecting.
All you and your friends do is to find fault with the semantics. Now you will argue that Hindu’s have shoe shops and leather belt shops.
Leather processing, processing raw hide of the cow and other animals to convert them into processed leather, ready for export to Italy.
One Brahmin exporter does not change the fact that Leather processing industry is dominated by muslims.
And yes Jains are in the animal slaughter business.
And you do eat beef.
Exceptions are not rules
@Veeeh.
First off I am not a Brahmin.
It’s just that I don’t care for aholes dissing on Brahmins like its tattooed on their forehead “Kick me” and neither do I care for the victim-hood mentality of losers.
@ Manny
And I don’t like someone judging others and labeling them.
Nor do i like the person who is insensitive to other people’s emotions.
neither do i like hypocrites who claim to practice a belief system totally different what they preach.
Or the person who dares to hide behind his insufficiency in the virtual world and cry for attention.
Neither do I like who keeps blaming someone else for all the problems in his life and the people around him.
You want to have fun, I can play along. But I don’t want to play this childish game. You want to win a debate, i will declare you winner.
But please let me be your untouchable, and I am aware the context in which that word was used, particularly when coming from you.
@Seenu
Oh no, I am not supporting low caste over high caste. I am critical of the caste system as a whole.
Low caste are a dominant force based on the sheer number advantage they have. but low caste leadership has converted them into mere vote banks.
there is no reward for the political class in the existing system to uplift the society economically or socially. Its the game of numbers and it makes sense for Politicians to keep as many possible as uneducated and struggling with the existence. If they are educated, if they are socially conscious and if they have enough spare time due to prosperity – they would disturb the all the looting of public money by the politicians and the supply chain they have created to suck in the funds at every level.
I know about Indian public memory and I know what Ana’s fast would do to corruption – nothing
You know nothing buddy , more so when you are Home-Alone in once a land of opportunity.
You are overburdened with your own knowledge.Raise yourself above caste/creed and enjoy life.
So you claim to know everything!
I have been selling loans to the contractors all over south and I know how the supply chain for corruption works.
I am enjoying my life to the fullest. And I don’t beleive in the caste system, so don’t worry about it. Neither do I worry about the race or creed.
I have claimed myself to be human and international …many a times.
Thanks for your concern.
Tamasha ,
Its a HYPOTHETICAL question as I don’t have the authority to make and implement rules.I would be able to answer this question when I become PM of India.
But I am sure that the reason Mr Veeeeh has given for the civic sense of Indians is just “Ridiculous” and Fantasy.It would be interesting to know what a person of ‘Lower-Caste’ have in mind when he litters. (That a person of Upper-Caste will clean it ? )
I am amazed at Mr Veeeh’s capability to blame everything on “Caste-System”. Earlier he said that “Arrange Marriages” are the reason for “Eve-teasing”.. He is equivalent of Digvijay Singh in this Blog..
I think he is a P!ssed of untouchable! LOL
oh yes, thanks for using the word untouchable and show your empathy for “untouchable” Indians.
I am untouchable for the likes of you two for sure.
So why don’t you both stop touching me both in real and in this virtual blog.
I consider all Congressi Lefties as untouchables. They are the only untouchables in my eyes. So Sue me!
I have a few of these in my own family. Sigh!
Digvijay Singh is a High-Caste Kshatriya not an untouchable.Btw any person from lower caste/class including Veeeh is welcome in my Home and he will be treated with utmost respect and dignity.
Not in my household. I don’t care for congressi lefty untouchables. They are not welcome in my house.
But unfortunately I have a few family members who are congressi leftists. I try to avoid touching these untouchables. But if by accident they come to any physical contact, I quickly say a Hail Mary… err I mean I do a Surya Namaskaram and then go have a bath to cleanse myself and make myself Kosher!
@Mohit-
I’m not asking you to make and implement rules. I’m asking for your ideas regarding the sanitation problem in India.
Becoming the PM of India won’t make you any more able to answer this question than you are now. You’ve mentioned you have ‘big plans’ for India on this blog, why not share your ideas for ‘big plans’ with us?
First part of his big plan should be to take over Nepal and kick you out! Chal Hatt!!!
If becoming PM in India won’t make me able to change and implement rule then NOTHING would !
On your question , my take is different.Most people blame public for this sanitation issue.That is true for sure.But whole responsibility lies with Civic Authorities for “Spreading Awareness” , “Building Infrastructure” , “Implement rule with zero tolerance”…!!!
I think government can do ANYTHING if intention is right !
@Mohit-
I agree that the ‘civic authorities’ should do a campaign to spread awareness, build toilets, and probably some sort of ‘sanitation police’ to enforce toileting-
BUT-
There seems to be a definite ‘cultural taboo’ on the entire subject of human waste in India to the
point where NO ONE wants to SERIOUSLY deal with it even though it causes SERIOUS HEALTH PROBLEMS. This taboo is so extreme it’s observed in Indian politicians and the Indian public.
The problem is, the socialist govt always builds free toilets and no service to clean em up after building it. Like all infrastructure, it atrophies in no time.
There needs to be pay for use public toilets and there can be employment for taking care of this from the monies collected. It can be a small amount. But it needs to be paid for. It needs to be self sustaining. In fact, all the govt needs to do is, stay out of this enterprise, except allocate public land in the cities and villages so a pvt enterprise can compete for the cleanest toilets around.
I believe there was a publicly visible organization that was formed to address this issue in India. Hmmmm…
@Manny-
It costs around 5,000 rupees to build an Ecosan composting toilet. Now most Indian households have a television and a cell phone that costs more than that.
Karunandhi the Anti Hindu Chief minister of Tamilnady promised color TV for every individual who votes for him. He could have promised the cosan composting toilet for each house and lost the election instead if losing after the promise of Color TV.
Ha Ha!
@Manny-
That’s the point, it is more important in India to have a color tv than a toilet!
Traditionally and historically, most knowledge in India has been transferred orally/verbally. This way, one can choose, protect, and control who can access the knowledge (unlike a book or a written document that can be read by any one who can read). Also, this helps maintain respect and hierarchy (dumb people have to rely on and respect the knowledgeable ones).
On the other hand, due to the lack of documentation and copyright, India may have lost credits of the inventions of the past. At the same time, oral transmission of knowledge makes one dependent on others which eliminates any processes of thorough self-learning or self-understanding of the knowledge/content being transmitted. Hence, it becomes increasingly hard for a person to express and/or document the knowledge she has acquired (She can also express or transmit the knowledge only in one way – that of oral transmission).
The joint-family system, the caste-system and all other systems in India has employed and nurtured this ‘oral transmission culture’, making the younger generation more and more dependable and dumb.
Then, there is the kind you are married to – “The Allah-o-Akbar culture” who had no positive influence on Indians on how to acquire and preserve the knowledge more efficiently. Moreover, they must be cursing their ancestors for leaving the ‘middle-east’ at a wrong time. Had they not come to India, they would have owned the “lands of oil” and bought all Western stuff except, ehm, the mini-skirts and panties.
Yes, completely agree with you Amit.
The intention of such a system was to protect knowledge. It worked well, to an extent of knowledge vanishing from the face of the earth, as the tricks and techniques could not be passed to the next generation.
Do you think we can make those brass statues, whose technology and metallurgical properties is what NASA and others are trying to build! Or make steel like the one outside the Qutub Minar which has very less oxidation process despite being expose the natural elements for centuries.
Games like chess were created in India and if the knowledge system captured the tricks, I am sure there would have been many Vishwanath Anands bringing wealth by winning tournaments into the country.
We lost alot in the process, and if you are aware of the communication game where one person whispers something into the ears of the adjacent person, who in turn whispers to the next person…..and almost all the time the final person says something different from what was whispered by the first person.
Imagine what each generation would have added from their contemporary social view point to the message transmitted.
Yes absence of knowledge system was a flaw with the caste system. But then show me one system which does not have it.
The point is, the time is up for thee caste system. It is pulling us from reaching our full potential. And those on the top of the pyramid are using the caste system to stroke their pride and egos and preserve their genetic pool!
But then nobody ever cared for their country. Even during the war, jawans are motivated by the speech of what they need to do to save the honor of their mothers and sister.
Without strategic level driving the changes in the socio economic system of the country, i would see everyone groping with issues that the existing defunct system throws and it will keep everyone very busy in the government who are working at tactical level and social elements who are working at operating level.
@Amit-
What is this?
“The Allah-o-Akbar culture”…Moreover, they must be cursing their ancestors for leaving the ‘middle-east’ at a wrong time. Had they not come to India, they would have owned the “lands of oil” and bought all Western stuff except, ehm, the mini-skirts and panties.’
What a lot of rot. Kashmiris don’t have ‘ancestry’ in the ‘lands of oil’.
Most Kashmiris were Hindu only a few hundred years ago, Kashmiri Muslims have kept alot of their Hindu traditions. Although the Kashmiri people are classified as a Dardic ethno-linguistic group genetically they are more similar to the the Pashtuns to the north-west and west and Punjabis to the south and southwest.
I don’t recall the Kashmiris nor the Punjabis nor the Pashtuns living in the ‘lands of oil’?
I believe the ‘lands of oil’ primarily belong to a Semitic people referred to in modern times as ARABS. Different language, different genetic markers, different geographical location.
The Parsi population of India has more in common with Arabs and previously resided in a ‘land of oil’.
It is interesting that quite a few Muslims in India do claim to belong to some sort of ‘pan-Arab or pan-Persian’ diaspora but there’s no genetic evidence to support this claim.
Doesn’t matter where their ancestry lies! You don’t have American ancestry either, but you carried around an American passport, didn’t you?
@Amit-
Yes, I do have AMERICAN ANCESTRY.
Try again.
Telling me to ‘try again’ is like telling an alpha male to seduce a woman. Who’s going to ‘lose’ here? (pun intended).
Anyway, for your full satisfaction (pun intended), let me try again.
I guess you must have gotten your education through some ‘welfare’ or ‘quota’ system for natives!
@Amit-
‘I guess you must have gotten your education through some ‘welfare’ or ‘quota’ system for natives!’
Nope, US Navy & scholarships.
The entire notion of a ‘Homeland’ for any ethnicity or religion is bizarre to me. So since my dad is American Indian and Black, were is my ‘homeland’? North America, Africa or the Netherlands since my mom is Dutch?
I can only laugh at my stupidity for trying to present FACTS to an audience which is omniscient.
Certainly the caste system is something that westerners find difficult to digest.
We don’t believe in reincarnation but we believe in what is called (in french) the “social lift” or equal opportunity, meaning if an individual gets a good education and works hard enough, in his lifetime he can move up in society, do better than his parents. A century ago most people in Europe were cultivators, now it’s only 2% of the population. My great-grand mother had to work as a servant because she was very poor but all her children got educated and found good positions as engineers, lawyers, politicians…
So when we hear about people not allowed to cook for others, or not allowed to get in other people’s houses, or not allowed to pursue they dream job because of were they were born, it seems insane and unfair to us.
You will no doubt point out that we have a class system that is quite rigid and sociologists tell that the social elevator has been out or order for some years.
But how come this guy called Gandhi fought for the abolition of caste system ?
You don’t understand the caste system? Let me explain it you then.
Its called “Racism”.
Same thing.
Although the caste system never went far down on the evil scale as Racism did.
Helene , Bonzour !
Which India you are talking about ? Nobody is stropped here to pursue their dream job or anything.That is simply not true.And the ‘social-uplift’ and ‘equal opportunity’ you are talking about is “WELL-DOCUMENTED” in the all Caste-based socio-religious scripture , most famously in “MANUSMRITI”..
I should tell you people some interesting FACTS !
1-Caste-System was not Rigid !
2-Caste-based profession or ‘profession-based caste’ had the flexibility to be changed over a period of time.
3-Punishment for a same crime was TWICE for high-caste BRAHMIN than low-caste-SHUDRA.. (With great power come the great responsibility ,, )
“But how come this guy called Gandhi fought for the abolition of caste system ?”
Without being rude , I just want to say its ignorance to equate “Untouchability’ with “Caste-System”..Gandhi fought for “Untouchability’ and not for abolishing “Caste-System”…
Infact he was a hard-core Casteist and probably that is why he DIDN’T accept his son marrying a Muslim.People have half-baked knowledge here in India.
Bonjour Mohit
I am telling you of the India in which some village people of high caste make sure people of lower caste don’t get high education, the India were intercaste marriage are frowned upon, the India in which priests clean temples for hours after a low caste minister has visited, the India in which a driver is not allowed inside a house because it is assumed he must be of low caste…
These are facts that I personally find disgusting. It’s unfair and as veeeh pointed out, caste system it’s a waste of human creativity. And creativity is a gift from God, a hindu holy man told me so.
Have a nice day
I am as against any discrimination based on caste as any other person and I actually make it a point to make people from lower caste/class comfortable and wanted when they are around me.For example , I offer my plumber of whatever caste/class breakfast/lunch/dinner when he is around and make him sit at the dining table with me.Our family driver was allowed to sleep in my bedroom.(And I am SURE no one here talking against caste-system would allow his/her driver to do so ) ..That was about my personal treatment of lower caste/class..
The point was that you said “People are stopped to pursue their dream”..which , unfortunately is not proved by examples given by you. People stopping lower caste people from going to school ..that may be true in rare cases but the OFFICIAL FACT is that Lower/Backward caste have 49% Reservation in all the government Institution of India…which in no way stop lower caste/class to pursue their dream.
If a high-caste priest wash off the temple after the visit of low-caste minister this doesn’t prove that low-caste people are stopped to pursue their dreams ..after all the lower-caste person was made a MINISTER !
What a driver has to do with his caste , btw ? You are being FUNNY now .. Please ! Why told you that drivers are low-caste ? Veeeeh ?
@Mohit. Yes, I know many Indians who are against the reservation system. But basically in many instances it is the only way to fight against social prejudices (see USA for Blacks, Europe for women in politics etc).
It is a fact that outside the cities there still is social oppression linked to caste.
Why that man assumed my driver was low caste I don’t know, maybe because he thought he must be of a servant caste, which is not the case. But I certainly gave the man a good piece of my mind
All right Helene,
Let me take one of your assertion “he India in which priests clean temples for hours after a low caste minister has visited,”
Lets see. A Hindu priest working in temeples is extremely poor, living at almost poverty level. Then you have this minister who is a “Dalit”, who is elected. How did he get elected to a powerful position if there was so much discrimination and abuse? But being abused? He is probably corrupt like all the other rascals who are elected.
What did the priest do that was abusive? The priest would do the most kosher thing if and when any meat eaters visit that place. Yes, If he knew I eat beef, he would do the same. La Dee Daa!
Now, tell me my dear, who is being abusive here? The Dalit ahole minister who is position of power trying screw this poor priest or is it the other way around?
@Manny-
Are the Hindu temples ever cleaned? The Sikh temples and the mosques seem fairly tidy, but the trash, dust and spider webs in many Hindu places of worship looks like it’s been there for ages.
Maybe the Sekular govt which takes the money from these temples are being withheld and not given to the temples to manage their own affairs. I believe a lot has to do with this tyranny.
As far as cleanliness, many of the Mosques in Istanbul are used as public rest rooms. I am not kidding.
@Manny-
What do mosques in Istanbul have to do with mosques in India?
When my husband and I went to Agra on our honeymoon I was shocked to see Indians peeing inside the Taj Mahal in the rose garden. Indian men in nice business suits with probably 200+ tourists wandering about in the courtyard just unzip their pants and piss. Not the least bit self conscious at all. A huge 2 metre by 4 metre sign with an arrow points to where the lavatories are IN CLEAR VIEW.
Seriously, it does add to the negative stereotype that Indians are dirty.
Agra itself is a Toilet!
Driving from Delhi to Agra is a nice experience. Clean highway and looks good. Then you reach Agra. A Muslim city. ITs the dirtiest filthiest place on earth.
BTW, if anyone suggests tearing down Agra and rebuilding the city, the lefties would be all over crying “Tyranny of the minorities”!
@Manny-
Agra’s population-Hindu 89.6%, Islam 8.93%, and Jainism 0.51%.
I think you’ll agree that Agra is NOT a Muslim city by population.
I’ll agree with you that Agra’s strewn with turds to a shocking extent, BUT INSIDE THE TAJ MAHAL?
Come on. That is probably India’s most well known & most touristed MONUMENT.
Varanasi tops the list for filth in my opinion.
True about Varnasi.
Who Pees inside the Taj Mahal? They would be arrested.
Did you see this yourself or just heard it secondhand?
@Manny-
YES I was unfortunate enough to PERSONALLY witness several INDIAN MALES in business attire URINATING in the courtyard of the TAJ MAHAL. In fact it really PISSED ME OFF (no pun intended) because I was trying to take photos BUT INDIAN MALES URINATING kept getting in the way.
My husband remarked INDIAAA INCREDIBLE INDIAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Manny, you just got caught in a LIE about Agra’s Muslim population, so STFU.
Almost every place/household I saw in the city of Agra around the Taj Mahal. The dirtiest parts were Muslim household. The outskirt farmland may be Hindus which was clean. These properties were were ancestral properties of Muslims in that area. There hardly any Hindus living there.
@Manny-
I beg to differ. I walked ALL over Agra, there were turds EVERYWHERE. Yes, Manny all the FECES I saw were outdoors NOT in people’s houses be they Muslim or Hindu. The farmland around the outskirts of Agra was the WORST. From our swanky 5 star hotel the view was basically women pulling up their saris and defecating with the Taj Mahal in plain view.
Did you know that 80% of Agra’s sewage flows directly into the Yamuna?
You know I’ve noticed Indians are unable to connect an issue to a root cause, they connect the issue to emotion, and are more interested in saying words rather than execution.
@Tamasha Pagal Gori Rani
I have noticed that white women have an inflated sense of ego and think that people always want to hear their opinion!
I have noticed that women have an inflated sense of ego and think that people always want to hear their opinion!
Tsk Tsk! Just Kidding! Just Kidding! Ha Ha!
I know I would get hate posts for that… But I have a warped sense of humor! Ok People!
@prithi-nik-viraj-moron-
You wrote and I quote-
‘I have noticed that white women have an inflated sense of ego and think that people always want to hear their opinion!’
Oh, you mean like Sharell and I?
Why do you read and post on a white woman’s blog then?
Sounds STUPID to me.
I wouldn’t mention Sharell in the same sentence as you dear!
Why don’t you continue talking about poop? It seems to turn you on!
@prithi-Nik-viraj-
You really are THAT dumb aren’t you?
Why don’t you continue talking about women you’ve been intimate with that ‘smell like cheese? That seems to TURN YOU ON!
Its a wellknown fact, that the Christian govt of India does not allow monies collected from Temples to be used to improve the infrastructure.
Take that Billion$ of wealth found in that temple in Trivandrum. Now, if you go to that temple, it would be full of cobwebs and spiders I am sure. But if they have to use the money to do anything, they have to get permission from the Kerala Christians and Kerala commies I am sure and from the Anti Hindu non Hindu Kerala legislatures.
Well I don’t subscribe to the point of view that all politicians are corrupt, and it seems absurd to me that somebody should think himself above another person simply because of his birth, something for which he did nothing, and despise somebody who actually did something of his life.
Corrupted or not, a politician has to work hard.
Then of course, I don’t want to hurt anybody’s fellings, but I think only God knows who is clean and who is dirty, the rest is er… BS
I find the constant bickering going on here rather depressing. All these rows are like a loud speaker to the prejudices that are over shadowing my “mixed” marriage. What a pity, what a pity…
Vannakkam Hélène
I share your view. Believe me its easy to tune yourself and filter those bickering from reaching your system. These negative messages and emotional egoist outbursts are not healthy for anyone’s psycho- somatic system, especially who are in the intercultural relationships.
And don’t let these negative emotions that you pick from here , to spill into the already hard battle of fighting complexities and prejudices that you need to fight on the daily basis, for being into an inter cultural relationship.
Vannakkam Veeeeeh, and thank you for your support
Oh Helene! Take it easy!
I agree Helene. Everyone must try harder to be diplomatic, after all, diplomacy is FREE!
ATTENTION! Ladies and Gentlemen, re. your discussion about becoming Indian, you MUST see this BBC video clip about multinational accents from the Catherine Tate show this is the funniest thing I you will EVER seen…
Type in “Catherine Tate – the offensive translator” into YouTube it is from her BBC comedy show
URL: http : // www . youtube.com/watch?v=XY66ZJ0TFUI
[delete spaces from url above]
That video is hilarious !
Actually the lack of public toilets in India is taken very seriously by organizations like Unicef and World Health Organization. They believe it is a burden on the economic development of the coutntry :
http: // www . dnaindia.com/analysis/main-article_the-toilet-test_1189539
http : // www . nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16iht-letter16.html
@Helene-
I actually work for UNICEF. USaid also has funded many efforts building toilets in India. The problem is even if you build toilets most of the time Indians won’t use them.
Do you have any idea why, Tamasha ?
I remember a friend telling me of a brand new hosital built in Africa, that nobody wanted to use ; it had been built on a a land believed to be the land of the dead ancestors ! Murphy’s law, I guess…
@ TAMASHA!
You hit a nerve, it seems. Having been in the country for over 7 years, I can attest to that. Whenever Indians are faced with a problem that seems complex; they either choose to push it under the carpet, start a blame game or give an emotional tirade on why there is ‘no solution’. In my line of work, I come across this attitude quite often.
As for Hindu temples being dirty, I found the ones in Goa and Kerala to be rather clean and sanitary, compared to the temples in Northern India which are usually very dirty (unless the temple is an international tourist spot). It is not just temples but even public places like train and bus stations which are cleaner. I think a sense of hygiene and cleanliness in India varies between the different cultures.
By the way, are the toilets built by the UNICEF easily accessible? A difficulty of accessibility is one of the reasons why a public amenity is not used optimally. For instance, I am unable to use a lot of public toilets in India because their stalls are built too low. If I stand, I can see the person(s) doing their businesses in the neighbouring stalls – not a very pleasant experience, I must say.
@Abdullah and Helene-
USAID has had the most experience building toilets in India of all the NGOs. The toilets USAID built were ‘squatters’, quiet large by Indian standards, made of cement bricks with a corrugated metal roofs. The problem was the toilets were so large and well built that they were used for grain storage in a number of cases. In other cases the toilets were used as housing as they were better built than what the people actually previously lived in.
Aversion to urine and feces is a learned human behavior. I have to say this ‘learned’ behavior is not as developed in India, hence the HUGE PUBLIC HEALTH problem.
I’ve also noticed that in India ‘clean’ is more of a ‘ritual’ idea than a physical concept. I’m always amazed watching Indian ‘sweepers’ or even my sister in laws attempt to ‘clean’ something using an absolutely FILTHY rag with a bucket of dirty water. It’s as if the ‘action’ or ‘ritual’ of cleaning something is more important than if anything is physically clean. If anything stuff usually ends up dirtier than when they started, doesn’t seem to bother them any though.
Yes, Abdullah the ‘emotional tantrums’, ‘blame games’ and thwarting of responsibility in the Indian culture befuddle me also. No wonder everything is ‘short term’ IF anything gets done at all. Problem solving is rarely rewarded in this culture. My husband tried this nonsense early in our relationship, he quickly learned tantrums will be met with silence & there better damned well be a reasonable solution or I leave. My in laws are another story.
You know Tamasha, hygiene has been a source of arguments with my husband since the beginning. Some things he does disgust me although I know it is perfectly clean, but I was taught, as you point out, to categorize this as dirty. At the same time he spends more time in the bathroom than I do and thinks I’m dirty
Then I remember I was shocked to see people wiping their greasy hands on the walls of a temple, but after having oil on my own hands I realized it was a logical thing to do.
It seems to me the Indian way of thinking is very practical. The example you give of the use of USAids toilets is a good example.
You are more indian than many of us.you have left your home for india,and we indians have left our motherland for money,better life..
You are working with real india,talking,discussing the real problems of india!!
Very nice bloG!sharell
Thanks for stopping by and commenting Sharma.
I really like to try and figure out what makes India tick — hence all my contentious posts. So much information to be learned and shared.
Sharma, what you have said i think has come from the bottom of your heart. Sharell, I hope you always have strength and lots, lots of optimism to face every obstacle you’re facing now and after, as an individual, as a wife, as a white woman in India, as a person who wanting so bad to be an Indian. GBU.
i love your photo, beautiful bangles, beautiful sari! if one’s believe in reincarnation, maybe you – in your previous life – was an Indian before. i hope you find your true happiness in life, and your marriage always be blessed.
Hi Ayu, thank you so much! I totally believe I have been Indian in a past life — in Rajasthan.
Wishing you the best too.
Sharell, I live in Indonesia, where a bit of complicated things also happen here. We Indonesians consist of hundreds, maybe thousand of tribes, we speak same national language (Indonesian language) but in truth there are so many folk languages here, apart from each tribe’s backgrounds, relationships and history, religions, and are divided into over 13,000 islands. Some places in my country take people from other countries very openly, very warm-heartedly, and take them as same human as they are (among them are places like Bali and most parts of Central Java) while some other places only value those people as a source for money (which I hate!). I just visited Yogyakarta last month, and I stayed at an inn built by a couple (husband and wife), the husband is a Javanese and the wife is from Belgian. What I saw is the wife (yes Wendy, if you ever read this
I admire those people, and I sentimentally think that I can a little bit feel their feelings, their longing to be accepted wholly.
I think things are great with Wendy’s family. I mean, Javanese people surrounds her knows her, knows that she comes from Belgia but they respect her as a part of “Javanese” people. She is now a part of Java people, and people know she always show big effort to be a Javanese. I am so glad if people like her is regarded the same as a part of home where her heart lies, and I hope Sharell, gradually, you too, get the same treatment in India. Don’t ever lose hope, but please, don’t expect too much, because sometimes it must be painful if you find the opposite. Whatever may be ahead, you’ll always get supports and love from your husband and your husband’s family, and mainly, you can always count on him. GBU.
over all a nice blog, but why did u mention salvaar kameez as “cheap”?..cheap salvaar kameez it seems..who is asking u to wear if u dont like ..if u have joined some institute where u have dress code,u have to follow that.
Kyaa? Who said I don’t like salwaar kameez? I own plenty. A little English lesson for you: cheap means inexpensive.
we are already fedup with a ‘WHITe’ lady in politics now. we dont need anymore……thats why we sy” who invited u? if u dnt like go out. ”
lols
but seriously speaking , ” we should critizise or say bad only about ourself,,,,no one is perfect and has no right to say about others.instead we should think our demerits and bad points in our country.
Ps indians are not at ALL BAD IN Criticizing others
Varna and Caste are different. Varna was basd on profession. But later it became all those birth related , superiority -inferiority etc. And many outside religions used it to propogate themselves. Hinduism is vast nt confind to Vedanta. And i dnt say any religion is bad . For India hinduism sufficient and OK. The thng is we have to it in the right sense.
I am a brahmin myself , and hate caste system. It divided hindus , it Kept hinduism away from both lower and upper caste. I thnk we new gen. Hindus should come out of caste- reservation politics. And here in kerala there s nt much caste system. We all sit together ,go temple together etc. Similarly rich of high/low caste should help poor. ANCIENT INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATIONS HAD WELL BUILT SANITATION AND DRAINAGE SYSTEMS. And great civic sense. So all hindus , should come unitd to abolish caste system which keeps our own phy. Away. And its the same thng which causd foreign invasions.
HARDCORE , CASTIEST BRAHMANS AND SIMILAR LOWCASTES WHO BLINDLY GO AGAINST BRAHMINS have same problem , BOTH DNT GET ESSENCE OF HINDUISM.
People who really know or practice Hinduism are rare in India.
So we have to educate and teach, upbring everyone in India. Even governments are playing caste politics. Dalit leader Mayawati has done nothng for thousands of poor dalits in UP. Its time to come out of these caste lines an borders. To educate and impart knowledge of real HINDUISM.
You are certainly beautiful enough to be Indian.
The term “Indian” was created by outsiders, and for 4000 years it is foreigners, their invasions, and their interaction with local culture that has shaped the land. Don’t mind the stupid Hindu nationalists. If you think you are Indian, YOU ARE INDIAN, your skin, race creed do not matter. And once you get Indian citizenship, (if you do) you will be as “Indian” as anyone else. By the way, Bengalis are egotistical and nationalistic, you would assimilate a lot better in Delhi (or Bombay p.s. never call it mumbai), where Punjabis, Uttarpradeshis, Haryanvi’s, south Indians, Afgans, Whites, Tibeteans, nepalis and Blacks coexist, while keeping their culture. Furthermore because India is so diverse race has no part in Indianess Proof:
Anglo-Indians(mixed)
British Indians: William Dalyrimple etc.
Goan Eurasians (mixed)
Pondicherry French
Pondicherry Eurasians (mixed)
Indian Afghans
Indian Chineese
Indian Whites whose parents were hippies (aurovillians): Kalki Koechlin
among others.
I’ve just discovered your blog and can’t wait to read the whole thing, but I’m also hoping you will send me your email address because I need some advice.
I’ve been dating the same guy for almost a year and I’m crazy about him. We both live in New York City, where I work as a psychiatrist. Both of us are trying to figure out whether we have a future together. He is originally from Bombay. I’m a white girl from America. Anyway, you can see where I’m going with this, I have lots more to say but will wait hopefully for your email before I launch into the whole story. The good news is, I think his intentions are serious and his parents are open to the idea (of me). The more challenging news is that he might want to move back home. -Mary
well ,becoming indian is impossible . india is like EU , u should have specifically mentioned which culture anyone want to change , like bengali, bihari ,tamil, marathi, telugu etc ..india is multi culture ..and its not really hard to adopt to any of style , people adopt ..
i had gone through other post , i find ..all the mentally retarded idiots are posting useless comments on other topics , i bet they are culturally blind bonded , so , to defend one self they always find scapegoat to avoid things .
my conclusion , all are humanbeing …all behave similar , either its ego ,greedy ,attractiveness , love , sympathy etc ..but some superiority complex ruins and make disastrous , and india pop with illeterate dumbass . so i hope all literate well educate will avoide ..fake nonsense …rest are nothing different neither indians are aliens to others or other are not aliens to india ..only few behaviour makes anonymity that coz of generation gap .so cheers .
Sharell,
How about this American guy Edward Sonnenblick, huh ? He looks like he IS becoming more and more Indian !
He acted in the Indian TV serial “Rani Jhansi”.
Check out his great Indian stand-up-comedy at :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFNVHJsIaWQ
Sharell,
you look beautiful in that picture with a sari.
Well I would disagree with this article of yours.
Its possible to become Indian. One of the greatest examples is Satyanand Stokes. The man for whom the whole India stood when he was jailed & is respected with deepest heart in Himachal Pradesh.
google ‘Satyanand Stokes’
thanks
OMGGGGGG!! You are looking soo beautiful in that saree
awesome work. 
I love your blog or writing or article, whatever you call it. 
You have done a great job and I can understand how difficult it was for you to adjust in a society completely different from what you’ve lived in for so many years. Seriously, hats off
I wish you and your family success and happiness for the coming years
The question goes counter to the idea and practice of India. India, unlike the U.S. for example, is not a melting pot. In the U.S., where I live, there is a set path to become an American if you are an immigrant. In India the various communities whether they are indigenous or even if they were from elsewhere did not give up on who they were to “become Indian”. Parsis remain Parsis in practice but still are Indian. Jews that came to India kept their traditions and identity. Other indigenous ethnicities and particularly tribal communities have totally different cultures. There is no concept of becoming an Indian. In this respect India is not a melting pot, it is a mosaic. The distinct parts remain distinct but still contribute to the grand Indian masala. Remain secure in who you are and India will make space for you.
BTW, there’s a great story about how the Parsis came to India.
It’s about 11 minutes into this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U7stdzo9X0
another question shoudl be How much indian we Indians want to be? you will find even a paan seller speaking in faltering english with english ppl just ti impress them while they want to practice hindi!!!
Yes, very good question, Jiten! I’ve been told not to bother with my Hindi because people speak English.
Hey Sharell!
Recently found your blog and it is amazing!!!
I’ve been reading these comments here, and the discussion on skin color and treatment is interesting. Mostly because skin color doesn’t actually dictate where you are from, what language you speak, or what your culture is made up of.
Also, I’ve seen some comments about the U.S. A lot of people actually go out of there way to treat foreigners with more respect than other Americans. This comes from a fear of being racist that a lot of people have. Not everyone is this way of course, there are of course areas where people are more ignorant and may treat you differently, but for the most part foreigners don’t have any issues. There are so many people from all over the world here that it’s kind of stupid to treat any one group differently. Almost half of the nation’s population is made up of minority groups (non-whites, or other white ethnicity minority, like some Latinos).
I’m actually browned skinned (not very dark but still so), but not from anywhere near India; South America to be exact. I’m really curious as to how people would react to me in India. I don’t exactly look Indian but most people can’t be sure about it, I’ve even had plenty of Indians here in the U.S. ask me where I’m from to see if I’m from India or not; some actually can’t believe that I’m not.
Also accent isn’t always a best bet, because that can actually be changed, language coaches and what not
I plan on going to India in the future, so I guess we’ll see how it goes..!
Hi Gabriel, I’m glad you like my blog. Interestingly, Indians have an amazing knack for determining who’s not an Indian living in India. They easily even pick out NRIs (Non Resident Indians) who are visiting India, and treat them differently. So I think you’ll most likely be treated as a foreigner.
Hi Sharell,
Happened to read your blog through a friend of mine.
Mind-blowing, and honest expression.
Being an odia (I too am from Odisha) and being in Mumbai for 25 years, I took a bit keen interest in reading your experience. Interestingly, my son is staying in Melbourne (he has completed his Engineering education one year back from Swinburne University and finds that place too good for him for his livelihood, but strangely misses his family bond there.
Wish you a very happy married life.
I would just love to have you enlighten me by what you mean when you say,” I have come to learn that my white skin gives me certain power in India?”
I don’t think I need to bother to do that.
“and touched the feet of elders (and even my husband!)”
Seriously Sharell?
U would go to that extent? The next thing they will ask you is to clean up all the dishes, wash the clothes and then if there is time, rub the feet of your husband. In short, be a complete Indian house maid.
for who you are and not for what he can turn you into.
Don’t you think the whole touching of your husband’s feet goes a little beyond tolerance, especially for an educated, self-respecting woman such as your self? The many years the women in Europe and US spent in establishing gender equality as a right has taught you nothing?
The next thing I know, they’ll force you to wear a sari and then cover your head no matter where you are and whether you lyk it or not! Turning a westerner into a complete indian is one of the many things some indians would take pride in, not that I think you’re family is like that.
All I would say is, dont get too caught up in being able to successfully follow most part of it. Rather know where to draw the line. After all your husband fell in live with you
P.S.: Dont consider this as a hate propaganda regarding the way women are treated in India, rather take it as some good-hearted advice from an online Indian friend/guide/well-wisher who wants you to be happy as long as you live here
Peace
Thanks for your input and advice. But don’t worry, everything I do, I do willingly. Yes, I do go to the extent of feet touching and don’t have a problem with it. For me, it’s just a traditional sign of respect (well for the elders anyway. With my husband, I don’t take it seriously and neither does he). Despite having touched elders’ feet numerous times, never do my inlaws ask me to clean dishes etc. On the occasions that the maid has not been there, I do clean the dishes without them asking me to (just because I do such a thing in my own parents house — we don’t have maids to clean up after us) and they get embarrassed and tell me not to. I wear a sari during festivals and formal family functions, just like other female family members. But at other times, I’ll just wear jeans and a kurta and they don’t mind at all. It’s precisely because they don’t force me to do anything that I’m happy to do gestures that make them happy. I guess because I come from a country of equality, I still feel equal in my mind.
Hence, when my young niece touches my feet, I get embarrassed and wish she wouldn’t….
OMG I wrote almost the same text when I was visiting my boyfriend’s home in Tamil Nadu last month. <3
Love your blog for the respect, passion and realistic view u are having for India.
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