Living in India definitely has its ups and downs — extreme ups and downs that it’s difficult to imagine unless you’ve experienced it yourself. In some ways, living in India has been wonderful for me. It’s made me less of a control freak, and more easy going and adaptable. It’s taught me to develop boundaries with people, and be more assertive. It’s broadened my perspective on so many things, including life and spirituality. It’s opened me up to so many new experiences. In short, it’s added a new dimension to my personality.
However, sometimes, living in India has brought out horrible sides of me that I never knew I had. I’ve been so enraged that I’ve slapped an overly persistent beggar who wouldn’t stop touching me (and what’s more, I know I’m not the only one to have done that). I’ve shouted, and ranted so much out of frustration that I’ve hardly recognised myself. I forcefully grab other women and push them aside when getting on and off the ladies compartment of the Mumabi local train. I was so rough one day with a group of women who barged onto the train and blocked the exit, carelessly stopping me and others from disembarking, that I got called “paagal” (crazy).
My behaviour was indeed paagal compared to the well mannered person that I usually am.
The reason why I’m pondering the effects of living in India is because of this article I read today, titled Why I Left India (Again). It’s written by an Indian guy who returned to India with his family, lived an extremely comfortable existence, but decided to move back to the US again within three years. Why? He didn’t like the person he was becoming in India.
He explains:
“Near the first anniversary of our return, I had my first road-rage incident: I verbally abused a hawker who was blocking the road. I’m not going to let bullock-cart India make my daughter late for her school admission test.
The hawker glared but scampered away, the road cleared, and, as I walked back to my car, I saw something new and disturbing in my driver’s eyes: respect. I don’t know how my daughter felt because I couldn’t look her in the eye.
Was this even a real problem? Make your peace; it is how it is.At the end of a long phone call to my mother in Pune, she said, “Don’t think so much. Just work hard and you can get whatever you want.”
But I never doubted what I could get; I hated what I was becoming.
I struggled, I regressed, I improved, I tried learning from others — except so many seemed (to me, not to them) worse off: an offensive Sardar joke here (even the kids laughed), a not-so-subtle inquiry about my caste (I’m still furious with myself for answering), tips on how to keep our maid “in her place” — it just didn’t stop.”
Strangely enough, I can relate to everything he says, even the last paragraph. I’ve heard plenty of Sardar jokes, have had to deal with open inquisitiveness about my husband’s caste (usually in the form of a simple, yet totally unnecessary, inquiry as to what his last name is), and am grappling with how to make sure the maid comes regularly to clean the floors. I fear I’ve been too gentle with her, and she’s become lazy and demotivated.
The author of the article sums up his main problem with India as “the reflexive, addictive and tragically accurate placement of other Indians into bullock carts, scooters, airplanes and who knows what else. These issues exist in all countries, but in India, I could see the bigotry in high fidelity and hear the stereotypes in surround-sound — partly because it is worse in India, mostly because I am Indian.”
And here is the conundrum: how to treat people in India. Back home, people act cordially to others. A professional will speak respectfully to a tradesman, a waiter, or any other person who does menial labour. It’s not the same in India. People will talk down to them. And in return many of them are dishonest and opportunistic. The distribution of resources is so extreme, it prompts extreme behaviour.
Workers who are honest are often discussed like they’re treasures: Can you believe it, after so much searching, I’ve finally found a decent maid who’s reliable and works hard. Not like the other one who stole from me. Oh, you’re so lucky? Where did you get her? I can’t find anyone like that!
Many times, honest and hard working home help are shocked when their employers are kind and generous to them because they’re not used to it. There is a lack of middle ground where respectfulness and honesty are just everyday things that everyone comes to expect.
So, how have I dealt with it? I’m polite to everyone until they give me reason not to be. However, I’ve definitely become hardened towards the situations of others. It’s their karma, right? Yet, I still do my bit to help through social investing.
Some commendable Indians choose to stay in India because they want to help India change. It took me a year to accept India for the way she is, and stop struggling against her ways. So, the thought of trying to get India to change leaves me feeling completely overwhelmed. Besides, I’ve accepted that I can never become Indian, so I don’t feel obligated to bring about change.
My acceptance of India is no doubt one of the reasons why I’ve continued to stay here. India is a country with imperfections, just like every other country. Perhaps, the issue of the gaping chasms in society isn’t so overwhelming for me because I don’t live a lavish life here. If I was holed up in a home worth crores of rupees, with a bevy of staff to take care of me (and a spa bath instead of my wet bathroom), I might feel differently. Instead, I’m just another average member of society, right in the middle, with plenty of people above and below me. But apparently, the perception is that I’m still rich enough for an electrician to try and charge three times the actual rate for his services!
Photo credit: Rishi S.
© 2011, Diary of a White Indian Housewife. All rights reserved. Do not copy and reproduce text or images without permission.
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{ 266 comments… read them below or add one }
That’s a very thought provoking post, Sharell.
However the search for honnest, hard-working maids/electricians/garagists seems to me to be universal ? I’ve worked a little bit in human ressources and getting people to work and handle their incessant requests for days off/raises/promotions is quite a challenge
I don’t think living in India makes you a bad person, it does however
a) desensitize you to poverty
b) make you slightly lazier when it comes to doing basic things like cooking/cleaning/driving/packing your lunch/using the washing machine
c) desensitize you to breaking the law for minor things
d) make you aggressive if needed (or else you’ll get stomped by everyone and their cows)
All in all, I don’t think India ‘makes’ someone bad. Being aggressive when you need to be is one thing–shouting at someone just because your daughter is late is entirely different.
Hi Sharell I can totally relate to this re my experience of being in Ethiopia [not in my life in India; in India I've never been for more than 5 weeks in a go, there's family there (my great aunt is a Loreto nun, she was in Novitiate with Mother Teresa and is now 97! so we visit and it's very tranquil, ordered and enclosed there) and my husband's family is there, his mum, aunt and uncle do a lot for us. We go to the Mall and the Tolly club. We do not negotiate much for ourselves (though we have had quite a few frustrations here and there) or wander around or do some of the normal things you do each day. Also having kids we are more circumscribed.] Whereas in Ethiopia, we were properly foreign. In a small town and I changed utterly. I’m fairly reserved and peaceable, much less aggressive than the average Brit but there I shoved students out of the classroom (they had 90 in a class) if they weren’t meant to be there, I even had shooting fantasies (apparently it’s quite common) The pyschological impact of being shouted out at constantly (forenge – means foreigner or white person) when you are out of the house, the many difficulties that we constantly encountered, the sheer stress of daily life. If you were in a coach when night fell, you could be attacked by highway men, eveyone would be ordered off the bus and shot. (Soldiers from the previous regime had nothing to earn them a living except their gun)
Ah, the Tolly club. My friends and I were quite thrilled to find a day bed in the women’s bathroom!
You’re right, the psychological impact of all that stress does add up.
I suppose I should modify this. I didn’t change utterly. But by the end, when I considered how it is here, you wouldn’t do this as a teacher, I thought how crazy! I never hurt students. They thought I was fairly soft. But still, it’s odd when you look at a situation which is so different the effect it has on you! Crazy!
This was a very thought provoking post: I feel like every expat in Mumbai or elsewhere in India must ask themselves the same thing. I *also* know women who have hit beggars at intersections. Does India bring out the worst in us? Or only the necessary? I’m still not sure!
In the beginning, I could only watch, astonished, as the intensity of the city raged around me. I used to be much softer and less aggressive: unfortunately in Mumbai, I can’t get anything done that way! I couldn’t buy a ticket for a movie, couldn’t keep my spot in any queue, and certainly could never board the local train. Everyone wanted that ticket and that spot more than I did, and fought harder for it, so I had to change.
Just last week, I travelled with a colleague to BOISAR, 2 hours out of the city. I met ladies on the train who traveled on that train from Borivali to Surat in Gujarat EVERY DAY for work.
When returning, I noticed something horrifying in the station as I waited: women were actually stepping down off of the platform to board the train from the ground on the other side. There were hundreds of women, made very aggressive by their daily 5 hours of travel. I thought I was doomed and would have to wait another hour for the next train.
By some stroke of fate or kismat, the train door lined up directly where I stood. I grabbed the bar and held on while ladies streamed out of the train and the ones behind me tried to wack my arm with their handbags, shouting like witches! I held fast in a way that I never could have done when I was new in India two years ago. When a woman gave me a shove, I pushed her back before claiming my seat on the train.
Does that make me a bad person? Or have I just become the person that I NEEDED to become in order to continue to be here, and to continue to love life here? The aggressive and seemingly mean nature of people seems to me to only be brought out in circumstances when it’s absolutely necessary. The rest of that train journey was absolutely pleasant, with ladies sharing the food in their tiffins and bragging amicably about their sons in engineering colleges.
I’d love to hear what you think about this.
Your maid conversation reminds me of so many conversations with high society expat ladies here. I can hardly believe the words that come out of my mouth at times. As I work for an NGO, I feel lucky to access quite a bit of the spectrum of wealth and opportunity in Mumbai. In that way, I can identify with the struggle of the domestic workers, and also with the feelings of the expat wives who, based on their experience, feel like every single person is trying to rip them off, always. Who is right? They both are, in a sense…
Excellent food for thought. Thank you Sharell!
I do agree with you. But if people were actually orderly when getting on and off the trains there wouldn’t be so much need for aggressive behaviour. When everyone tries to force their way on and off, in both directions all at once, it just jams the doors and makes it even worse. Don’t people realise that? And yes, all that screaming like a bunch of popats! I was on the train once when a woman took another’s seat, and the woman started gouging her arm with her fingernails, until blood was drawn! Other passengers had to intervene to stop the fight.
But if I had to commute for such long and uncomfortable hours every day, no doubt I’d be ready to fly off the handle too!!
Unfortunately this behavior extends to many NRIs in the USA. On countless occasions I have had to loudly say “excuse me” to Indians barging in to my compartment while I and other passengers are disembarking. Everyone else understands the courteous concept of waiting to the side of the door in an orderly cue until the leaving passengers are out of the door but sadly many Indians bring this selfish behavior to my country.
That would be extremely irritating.
That is not Selfish behavior but Stupid Behavior.And it would be interesting to know the reaction of THOSE NRIs who write on their Blogs that how Mainland Indians are lacking in civic sense.That is true , no doubt. But any one who ride Delhi Metro would tell you that everybody get in que and wait for people to disembark before he/she proceed to step on.I think SOME NRIs need to learn a thing or two from India.
I think some resident Indians need to learn a thing or two from India. Particularly those riding the Mumbai local.
Ahh Rebecca, you’re so right. I lived in Jersey City for a bit, which is a predominantly Indian neighborhood in Jersey, right outside Manhattan at NY-NJ borderline. The aggression on the PATH (train service) was reminiscent of Mumbai locals and at first, I thought that perhaps it was a reflection of New York’s care-a-damn attitude. It only took me about two weeks after moving to NY, that that attitude I’d seen on the PATH had nothing to do with NY. Yes, NY was crowded and trains ran full at peak hours, but people still found a way to go through this with courtesy and without pouncing on each other. What’s more, on the PATH, I’d never seen simple courtesies such as offering seats to elderly or pregnant women. This was refreshingly present in NY. So everytime someone complained to me about the NY subways, I always asked them to take a ride on the PATH.
That is an excellent point. Part of the reason that I held onto that railing was to prevent the women behind me from just plowing ahead. People CANNOT get on while other people come off: it can’t be done! But everyone tries to make it happen every time.
I haven’t seen blood yet, but I’ve seen biting. The local train really does reduce the best of us to savages, at times :S
Thank goodness for a short commute
Biting! I think that’s worse than blood. How completely feral.
That’s very true!
India forces you to “put your foot down” more than often. I actually use hindi swear words ONLY during the conversations with my company’s laborers. Being mean is the only way I can establish authority over them. They even refuse to eat the afternoon lunch as a form of protest against me for lecturing them. Last month we had to lay off a field supervisor because no worker respected his authority. He was back-office material and the labourers behaviour had left him speechless.
I’m not comfortable with firing curses at laborer’s either. My clients call me and offer to do it instead of me as a favour. Truth is, all sides are immune to this. I also dread to pick up the phone when my labourer calls me. They seem to know all the excuses in the world. They know that I do not have the energy to lecture against each and every one of their demands.
Well, my normally very placid husband apparently had an altercation with a rickshaw wala today — then the rickshaw wala stopped mid journey and ran off with my husband chasing after him and hurling choice Hindi swear words at him. Then on the way back my husband said he saw another angry guy chasing after a rickshaw wala. Of course, we all know what happens when they get caught — huge fight. Just like errant drivers are literally dragged out of their cars by huge mobs and beaten up. It’s a mad world out there!
rickshaw wala stopped mid journey and ran off with my husband chasing after him and hurling choice Hindi swear words at him
Seen many people arguing with the rickshaw walla but never seen anyone chase him.
Yeah, funny huh! And my hubby said he saw another guy chasing a rickshaw wala. Combine all that with the punch up in the post office recently, and people are really letting their anger out!
I think the rickshaw walas are behaving particularly badly this evening because of Diwali — LOTS of people out and wanting transport.
Anuj ,
” I actually use hindi swear words ONLY during the conversations with my company’s laborers.”
Interesting ! I never use the swear words with Labors or Person of Lower-Economic strata.And I still get my work done and command respect.People are so different yet things seem to work.
Then I must have unique labourer’s. Some two weeks ago, I and the gen mgr were looking out from the 2nd floor office window. A private cab(meru cab or city cab not sure) pulled in front of our building. Three of my labourer’s got in and drew away. The GM couldn’t believe what we saw and wanted me answer. Yes, our labourer’s were traveling to the clients construction sites in private cabs. Later, upon questioning them , I found that the private cabs charges v/s normal taxi charges were almost same(50-100 difference).
Just saying that my labourer’s are bold like that.
I never use swear words… I still get my work done and command respect
Our line of work must be different. I’m in construction. There’s a reason why there are no women in this profession expect maybe the female receptionist. Things are usually “mean” here.
Hmmm , line of work i definitely different , and that is why different way to tackle labours.I work for Electrical Manufacturing company.But it also depends on the type of company and even in same Industry , work culture may be different.I have many female friend who did Engineering in civil and are working in construction projects in Mumbai.But yes , things in construction Industry are usually very mean.
What I didn’t understand is that why your GM bothered if the labours are going in a private taxi/cabs or in a bus/auto. ? What was the Idea behind such concern.I simply didn’t understand.
Yes the ingrained social rules of our culture gives you permission to become the inherently bad people that everyone of us in the world actually is. For all its brief flashes of sophistry and gentility in ancient and contemporary days, South Asian cultures have always allowed and condoned selfish behavior. There were never any good old “gentler” days. Smaller pieces of the resources pie is not the only reason we are the way we are. We are like this from habit and sanction through the ages.
The west has immediate and lasting consequences for bad behavior. We do not. We do not have any rules at all, merely laws.
Hi Kiran, great to have you commenting again!
It’s been a while.
As for laws, I don’t even think they’re that. Merely “guidelines”. For example, Diwali. Yes, that time of year again full of noise pollution. Once again, the newspapers are full of laws about permitted decibel levels and not permitted loud crackers. But what do you think is happening. Kids bursting bomb crackers outside my window again. If these things aren’t permitted, why doesn’t the government simply ban the manufacture of these crackers, like would happen in Australia (fireworks used to readily available, but now they’re highly restricted)? There really aren’t consequences for bad behaviour, or really any consideration for others.
Somebody deleted my comments. Must be fearing the truth.
Where’s your comment Mohit ji. I haven’t seen it!
Sharell Bahini ji ,
What’s up this ‘Mohit Ji’ ? I am allergic to such kind of respect and can not digest it.So before my motion become loose , cut the courtesy.
I pasted the comment and when i refreshed , it was gone.May be , some other moderator deleted it.
Maybe the internet ate it?
Well, I thought a little respect once in a while is good…. makes people happy! But I forget people aren’t used to such nice treatment.
Seriously, I was just feeling kind. But I’ll make sure I don’t do that again. The last thing I want to do is upset your digestion!! Ugh. lol.
You know Sharell I looked beyond the authors words to make sense of his argument. He definitely has a point. But if you only look at the bad, where do you truly end up ‘belonging’?
I’ve had my fare share of India moments here in the US. Just ask the lady fighting me for the last black sweater at Macy’s on Black Friday
My point is, staying in India doesn’t make you bad. It makes you different to your expat personality. All you need is the ability to adapt.
Hi Gayatri, I hope you got that sweater (I have faith that you did!
)
http://kaimhanta.blogspot.com/2007/09/encounters-of-touchable-kind.html
what do you think of this?
What a fascinating read. I loved it (and I kinda liked the music too).
I saw a old woman who was sitting on the floor get trampled one day when I boarded the train. No one cared to go around her (and she wasn’t even in the door). I got my kurti ripped in the scuffle (trying to stop people from standing on her) and no one cared about that either. It was just… chal chal aage aage. Really, there just isn’t place for kind gestures that are looked upon with incredulity and even disdainfully at times.
Now, I can’t stop reading that blog!! Also love this post: http://kaimhanta.blogspot.com/2010/10/whats-your-culture.html
I am also a fan of her, she’s great !
Sharell ,
“Does Living in India Turn You Into a Bad Person?”
Ask yourself ! And even if you don’t get a answer , just see Sonia Gandhi.
No , India doesn’t make you a bad person , NO ! But yes it can bring out out the bad person with in you.
But again , what is bad is a relative thing.Burp is considered bad in western culture and in rural India it is considered a sign of satisfaction.
So when you beat up a beggar then its not India’s fault but its your inability to handle the situation.Actually we all want all people in the world to be happy and healthy but that is too idealistic a situation.So when we face poverty and disease , we feel disturbed , not because we are concerned about the person but because that sight is not in sync with our Idealistic imagination and we tend to ignore or avoid them.
To see all people happy and healthy is actually not our concern but our selfishness and cowardliness.Of not to face and change adversity.Instead shoo or hit it away.And then we go in to our fake imaginary beautiful world making fuss about every little damn thing or lack of it.
- People are *the same everywhere*, i repeat *they are the same*, whether it is India, US or Nigeria.
- Because of circumstances , ie here in India, too much population vying for so few resources, people’s outward behaviour become like that. True Story : in US, once in a bus, there was a higher crowd that usual because some regular buses didnt come. The otherwise usually courteous people, became impatient/irritated started elbowing each other in the crowded bus.
There was a classical experiment at Stanford University, which clearly depicted that , human beings intrinsically capable of displaying high level of cruelty. Few days ago I was watching a documentary titled “Science of evil”. It was a rational approach and an attempt to explain why seemingly civilized men with sensitivity and taste towards arts and culture became so cruel in different circumstances.
Yes, a lot depends on the environment. And most Indians, growing up are not conscious of the desensitization that one undergoes, growing up in the environment of India.
Most of the foreigners would experience the contrast effect and degradation of their sensitivity to other human beings.
Yes, its all about the competition of space in the public zone. And competition is not only limited to the public space and it transcends across all form of resources.
This blog entry made me recollect my own experience growing up. The rush for the bus, people reserving seats by throwing all they can from the windows of the bus. The mad rush…fights for someone would remove the handkerchief and sit. The sheer anger to see someone grin after successfully block few seats for his friends or relatives.
I remember the fights for the arm rest during the long bus travel. It did not matter if the other person was old, had arthritis and needed space. Or honking of the bike and riding it on the footpath, just to get ahead of the next person.
My dad grew from the rank of sepoy to a captain in the army. I have seen him verbally abuse, and I learn from him that he was also at the receiving end at one point of time. I never could use foul words and was always seen as soft and formal. I guess that was my way of rebelling against him.
The Indian work environment works differently and I have seen my dad coercing workers, using every trick in his book to keep them working. The tricks included gentle teasing, joking and scolding whenever possible. The workers would find ways of not doing work fast, and could tell the time by the bus that went on the road or shadow. Dad used to scold and use scathing foul words, and it did seem to project his power.
But take the same Indian, and place him at an environment like USA. He would defy expectations by displaying behavior which would be on the opposite pole.
But then bring the same competitive environment in the US, and you will see them behaving as people would do in India, like on the black Friday!
The only difference is that it’s a part of a daily life in India.
Even in the blog comment, you would see the same competition. The same authoritarian stance and foul mouthed insults can be seen here. That’s there measure of being powerful in the online community.
I disagree with you veeeeeh, I think that selfishness is unfortunately an intrinsic element of Indian character. There are many competitive environments in the West but you will rarely see the the high level of blatant discourteous and unethical behavior common among Indians. I have visited India three times and have been disgusted by how rude and cruel Indians can be, especially to those they consider to be “inferior.” I believe the inability of Indians to unite and sacrifice for the common good is the key reason India has failed in so many ways.
@Rebecca
The reason is that India is still a highly conservative, unorganized country with heavy population and loads of ignorance…Millions of people are uneducated and are not bound to the state/country..I mean like they don’t have any social security, like in western countries..If people are not bound to the state, they don’t have to be accountable for what they do and if they are not educated or don’t have awareness, they don’t care what happens..Most of ‘em are interested in making a quick buck and just living off that. You see this behaviour more in cities, as Indian cities are overcrowded and the politicians are not interested in developing villages/towns..More the density of population, more jealousy, stress and other shit. Also, to let someone hear what you say in a crowded place, you have to be louder..
Prashanth, I see discourteous behavior more among the educated and middle classes that I encounter because of my Indian husband’s social background. The lower class people have often shown me more kindness than any educated person I have met in India. A bus conductor once saved my life when he physically stopped me from accidentally getting off a moving bus. It seems that the more “status” an Indian person attains, the more he or she thinks that he/she can treat others badly.
I kinda agree with you, as I find it simple and easier to talk to lower class people than the upper class educated types.
“The lower class people have often shown me more kindness than any educated person I have met in India.”
Without being rude to educated people in India , I would like to say that what you said is absolutely correct.people from lower class are polite and Humble to you.But there is a twist to the story.They are humble only when they are dealing with a person of relative Higher-Class than them.That is a bit confusing because a technician who was very respectful to me and was very mean to his subordinates.
But still , I have seen , people from lower economic strata are more Humble , Polite , Helpful than so-called educated people anywhere in the world.
I agree and accept that the basic foundation of the Indian ethos is based on the well being of the family and self. The stratified layer and prejudice against weaker or inferior “Indians” – you don’t have go beyond the blog comments to discover that. Someone boasted recently that temples should be washed once these “Inferior people” visit them.
That shows how the manipulated religion also sanctions it.
And unfortunately, as long as the folks care about “self” and “family” the country will grow self smugged in the backyard of the nations in the middle east and the western borders.
But tell me why selfishness is WRONG in the country with one of the highest population.
“Someone boasted recently that temples should be washed once these “Inferior people” visit them.”
The temple priest is the weaker person. The Majority are the BCs who are the larger crowd with political power. So your BS theory is just BS theory Veeeeh. As usual..your arguments and points are so inferior.
And yours superior! I don’t want to discuss anything with an hypocrite and bigot.
My best friends were brahmin, room mate was brahmin, employer was brahmin, I worked in an Iyengar company and they processed my H1B.
They don’t need a non brahmin to do their fighting.
If you still have a mind set that brahmins yearn for government jobs , then you are very wrong.
They have long changed strategy, and it was necessitated by democracy. They have taken this as an opportunity to excel and find new opportunities.
But then since this is not the topic of this discussion, neither do I wish to associate with any bigot in an online community. (Requesting Sharell to delete this message)
You have lived in India much longer than I have. I left India when I was young.
so that makes YOU (veeh) a bad person and I a good person! So there!
LOL
“If you still have a mind set that brahmins yearn for government jobs , then you are very wrong.
They have long changed strategy, and it was necessitated by democracy. They have taken this as an opportunity to excel and find new opportunities. ”
But this is a serious topic and needs to be addressed.
First off, Brahmins are genetically superior. They do not by genetics possess traits that would help them succeed. They are not no different than you and I and everyone else as for as their inherent traits are concerned. But their culture helps them achieve more. But even then a slightly higher percentage of them are successful and leave the state of that dreadful Dravidian place called Tamilnadu. But the vast majority of them suffer. That is correct. the effect of discrimination against this minority group has had devastating effect on this community in Tamilnadu. But they are proud group and you may not hear about them begging in the streets. But they are suffering in Tamilnadu.
You are too clueless to know these things.
That should read “First off, Brahmins are NOT genetically superior.”
Manny, it’s time for your pills, dear
Manny, Brahmins are indeed genetically superior. But this is not important as the foundations of genetics are highly questionable.
I completely agree with you. This high-low caste bullshit is unnecessary and illogical, especially when it comes to democratic ideals. I remember a scene from the movie Lagaan where all higher-caste people are against of having an ‘untouchable’ in the cricket team. Now if you notice closely, all those higher-caste people look as shitty as that ‘untouchable’.
However, your point about selfishness is bit weak, not necessarily wrong. We all are selfish creatures. That’s why I hate human kind, whether you or I are Tamil or Bengali or Russian or American, we are a piece of shit (All offense meant and must be taken).
You are right in your observation about Indian selfishness. However, I’m sure you have witnessed the selfishness of Westerners too in large quantities. This kind of selfishness is surely different, but it is there. I just want to you speak up against the selfishness of Westerners as well, just to have an accurate and balanced view of things.
The above comment was for Veeeeh.
Tell me more about it, I’d like to get a perspective on it.
It’s easy. Just compare and contrast. Traditionally in India, the people get married and spent millions on their marriage to feed others, often have their relatives eat and lounge for free.
Now, buying a ticket to go to a marriage is a big turn-off for me in the U.S. Marriage often seems a gambling event to me. On a second thought, after all, the marriage in the West is a lottery, hehe if you get the drift.
Let me describe a marriage I attended fairly recently. First, I had to buy two tickets. Then we went there. We had to buy two more tickets, as there was a lottery and a grand prize. And people were more interested in this event than the married couple.
Today, the married couple is fighting to pay the bills.
It was fun, I got a change to generate more hatred toward the mankind.
Are you serious? You had to buy tickets?
For a western marriage?
Rebecca ,
What Veeeeh has said is very correct.You see , that just after three visits , you was disgusted by ‘rude’ and ‘cruel’ behaviors of Indians.But Indians have been going through all for the last 1,000 years.No other National/Social entity has had been under the foreign rule as India have.This long period of foreign-rule had developed an extreme disappointment , frustration , anger and mistrust.And when India got freedom , It was equally a bloodied process.Actually India has never got the time TO SETTLE.
There was a good old time , when most of the world was still in jungles , these same Indians these same Indians developed a very progressive civilization of “Vedic” , “Sindhu-Valley” , “Hadappa and Mohan Jodaro” on the bank of famous rivers.That was an Inclusive society based on collective responsibility and cooperation.So what made Indians into an what they are now ? Or if are they really so bad ?
What I can see that if all the Infrastructural , organizational , political and social problems of India are placed in any other developed country , then there would be a civil war type situation and it will destroy itself and records of history is a proof of that anticipation.
Just a week ago there were demonstration in Newyork for the loss of some jobs and those protest spread in another 82 countries which are much more rich and developed country have INFINITELY smaller problems than India have.
So , more than the people thing , Its an Political/Social thing which has made in such a big mess by our politicians and administration.A westerner is least likely to understand the culture of Indian and mentality of people in just three visits.
Before anyone interprets my posts as biased I would like to say I do not dislike Indians, I married one! Every culture has good and bad qualities and this blog post is addressing the negative traits in Indian culture.
Mohit, an casual observer can easily identify the main traits in any society. Three extended visits to India, nine years in a relationship with an Indian man, long visits from my Indian mother-in-law and father-in-law and many Indian friends and acquaintances gives me a better understanding of Indian culture than most non-Indians. Rudeness and cruelty are disgusting and not excused by history or societal problems.
Veeeeeh, you asked me to “tell you why selfishness is wrong in the country with one of the highest population.” Selfishness is not justified by overpopulation or any other reason. Selfishness creates a society that cannot unite and overthrow invaders. Selfishness creates self-serving and incompetent leaders who do not provide family planning services to all and mandate family size. Selfishness created a government that wastes billions of rupees on a space program in a pathetic attempt to garner international respect instead of investing its limited resources into providing sanitation, food, education, and health care for all of its citizens. Selfishness creates a country where no one stops widespread child labor, child marriage, forced marriage, dowry, sexual slavery, “kitchen accidents”, horrific treatment of Dalits and women, exploitation of the disabled, and female infanticide. Selfishness creates a people who have transformed their motherland into a garbage dump. Selfishness creates government officials who demand bribes just to do their jobs. Selfishness creates a society where people treat others disrespectfully if they are inferior to them based on moronic social divisions determined by caste, class, gender, and age.
Rebecca, you obviously have not read Ayn Rand. I would suggest “The virtues of selfishness”.
Rebecca,
I completely agree with you. Although India has many great qualities; its selfishness is quite obvious. I am Indian, and my parents are highly unethical and a tad bit selfish. When we were visiting India, I saw the lack of respect my parents showed to our drivers and maids. They thought they were superior to them because they came from them U.S. and had lots of money. I was ashamed of this. No one in India seems to consider those around them. This quite obvious when you are trying to board a train. In addition, there is quite a lot of abuse and violence that affects the lives of many Indian men and women by the hands of their parents, husbands, etc.
In fact, my own parents had a hand in this. My father convinced me to go on a trip to the Taj Mahal when I was a junior in college in the U.S. He said it was a family trip and that he wanted it for his birthday. I went, and I was taken to Kerala and my passport was taken away. They told me I had to complete medical school there and get married before they take me back to the U.S. (a forced marriage mind you). Thankfully, due to several other factors that came into play, I was able to return to the U.S. However, while I was in India, my parents behaved in an intolerable manner. They were more abusive and more free there to be abusive. I couldn’t tell the police about the abuse because they wouldn’t do anything in India. In short, they were considering no one but themselves. This obviously effected me a great deal in my life and my parents to this day do not want to admit they did anything wrong. I saddens me that I can’t view India in the same light anymore. I can barely tolerate India because of my experience. And it really depresses me to think that there are so many Indians out there that have to suffer the same abuse and consider it as a part of their daily lives.
Shiny,
why would you attribute that as Indian values and not Kerala culture/values?
You’re right about selfishness being more prominent here, but it’s not so much different than in the US. Think about those around you in the US (citizens) and consider how many mothers will get their nails done each week (or something similar) and then talk about they don’t know if they can afford Christmas for the kids. Here dad may refuse to buy dinner for the kids on a long trip only to turn around and buy one of the most expensive TV’s on the market (true story…happened in my family here). In India they are just not as good at making it look unselfish as Americans tend to be and they are also more petty with their selfishness IMO.
Bhabhi ji , you said it all and Well ! I loved your comment.
“I have visited India three times and have been disgusted by how rude and cruel Indians can be, especially to those they consider to be “inferior.”
In my own family, I have seen relatives who are nice to people who work for them and those that are not. An uncle of mine has had the same servant working for them for the last 25 years. He recently boght him land in his village, built a 3 bedroom house for him and gives him a monthly pension so he won’t have to work again.
Then there is an aunt of mine who is quite the opposite and treats her maids like dirt. She doesn’t use any foul words but just her tone of voice and the way she talks down to them is disgusting. But I have observed that she is nice to other workers like carpenters, plumbers etc. I’m not sure whether it’s because they are male or because they are doing a job that is more complex than cleaning and she has very little knowledge of.
I also have another uncle who got caught up in a police case because while renovating their house his wife insulted a worker very badly and that person committed suicide.
There are many people who could relate to this. I’m at Bangalore, since a couple of days and find it frustrating to deal with ignorance, driving, etc etc…People litter everywhere, although there are bins around. More than 50% of the drivers don’t have basic driving skills. How do they get the licence to drive?!?! –> Corrpution!
I never hit a beggar, but normally ignore some, as I can’t help each and everyone. Today, I really felt bad and sad, when I saw this cute kid begging on the street..I gave some money and told him kindly to tell his parents to let him study (I know, it wont help much)…He smiled back and went away…It was such a nice smile, that it made my day!
The problem is I can’t really vent out my frustrations, as the status quo of India is a result of it’s colonial history, caste system which got fucked up over the years, corrupt & ignorant politicians/rich folks, heavy population and hierarchy (Criminals or families with political background can only rule, Kids of movie personalities can only be the protagonists in some idiotic movie, etc). Once a country (average population) becomes ignorant, it will take ages to get back to normalcy…Take Iraq, Afghanistan…Now that they are fucked up, it will take ages for ‘em to get back to normalcy or be a developed state. I don’t really see much change in Bangalore..If you drive on Bangalore streets, its something like being put to sleep in a gas chamber (highly suffocating) ..It will probably take another 30 to 50 years, to probably see a developed India.
Yes, well the moral police are also out in full force in Bangalore at the moment in regards to dancing and western music, with raids and bans. It’s reached a ridiculous level.
There will be lots of angry people in Bangalore, now that they can’t unwind after a hard day’s work.
Uh oh! But seriously, tension is brewing. People are becoming outraged and forming groups to tackle the issue.
Very Interesting Topic and very timely.
I am planning to move back to India for at at least 6 months a year (I don’t care for winter in the US and neither do I care for summer in India).
The reason I seriously was thinking of this subject was on the account of a news item in Huffington Post (“China: Toddler Run Over Twice, Over A Dozen Passersby Ignore Her “) about an awful incident in China. Where a man ran over a 2 year old and then left her there in the middle of the road. Then people walk by and did nothing to save the child who was bleeding. Another vehicle came by and ran over her again. I am not kidding.
It was heart breaking and shook me to my elements.
I was thinking, was this unique to China. Could this have happened in India? I am not so sure if this could NOT have happened in India.
Some folks posted something similar to that, where that has happened in the US, and described it as “The ‘bystander effect’”
@Manny-
‘I was thinking, was this unique to China. Could this have happened in India? I am not so sure if this could NOT have happened in India.’
I’m afraid such things DO happen in India.
I just got back from participating in a ‘healthy baby’ clinic near Raichur, in Karnataka. I’m sure you know- Karnataka is hardly India’s poorest state with it’s capital being Bangalore ‘the Silicon Valley of India’.)
Yet in the Raichur district 2,689 children have died due to malnutrition in the last 2 years. It is reported that 811 died in 2009 while the number went up to 1,233 in 2010, as many as 645 such deaths have been recorded till August 2011. Currently there are 4,531 children in Raichur malnourished to the point of being on their deathbed. Data also shows that 78,366 children are malnourished to the point of being ‘at risk’ in the district.
The BJP claiming to be ‘the party with a difference’ is indifferent.
NDTV & the local channel 9 blame the situation on ‘government apathy’.
Come on people, these kids & pregnant moms haven’t just missed a few meals this is an ongoing & chronic problem. Why aren’t the wealthy ‘philanthropists’ of Bangalore’s Silicon Valley helping out?
The actual causes of malnutrition in India aren’t the simple typical reasons you’d expect- (ie food shortages, low per capita income), peruse this link to get an idea of what is ACTUALLY going on in India-
http://www.xing.com/net/hungerproject/general-discussion-37812/child-malnutrition-myths-and-solutions-8197847/
Indians simply don’t seem to have any notion of being able to change the future by taking appropriate action in the present. I am struck by this phenomenon over & over again in India, in all walks of life, in every social strata. Platitudes substitute for action everywhere (Commonwealth Games, Formula 1 race track, silly space projects, fancy indoor malls etc)
OK, now attack & accuse me of being a Pakistani Jihad Jane for daring to notice & volunteering my services to try & help in this situation.
And then you complain that I confront what I find wrong in your comments.
How wise it is to equate a case of Baby being run over twice and no-one helping with the ‘Technical’ issue of “Mal-Nutrition” in rural areas just to prove your silly points against India.
We all know you are expert in Datas about the number of women and children being malnourished and all , though inflated.But the question is how does that equate with deliberately running over a baby.
That is absurd comparison with obvious intent to malign India otherwise how can any question the development of Infrastructural projects because of cases of mal-nutrition.
@Mohit-
That baby in China was not DELIBERATELY run over, but that baby in China was DELIBERATELY IGNORED by 18 passersby.
Those starving children in Raichur are being DELIBERATELY IGNORED by Indians & the Indian government. That’s 2,689 children DEAD over 2 years due to starvation.
If you can’t see the similarities between children who have suffered & died as others looked on with indifference ( be it a hit & run driver OR chronic malnutrition), then perhaps you need to explain what the ‘difference’ is exactly.
Both are the result of an ‘uncaring’ & inhumane society.
For you Tamasha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGaJrgi_SpE
This is for you Manny-
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/National-outrage-grows-over-death-of-two-youths-killed-by-eve-teasers-in-Mumbai/articleshow/10583691.cms
Why isn’t there ‘NATIONAL OUTRAGE” over the 2,000+ starvation deaths of children in Raichur?
Tamasha ,
Please provide data for your claim that 2500 children were died of Malnutrition in Raichur.
Also Murder and Sexual Violence is a law and order problem.It was done deliberately by anti-social and criminal elements.Such type of violent incidences would always draw instant reaction from people.
On the other hand malnutrition of children is not a VIOLENT CRIME done by anyone but a case of negligence by close family members which happens over a period of time.I mean nobody in India would refuse anyone a day’s meal if somebody is hungry.And people would come out in open to provide financial support to such children.
So , to say that India and Indian are apathetic to the plight of their countrymen is gross miscalculation and misjudgment.
That is not true. Running over a baby and not helping him , which is a case of emergency , and even let another driver , deliberately or by mistake is extremely cruel and insensitive behavior. And you also know that it can NEVER happen in India , no matter how pathetic Indians are in your view.
The case and event of malnutrition-ed children is not an obvious and visual crisis.It occur over a period of time.And its a matter which can only be identified by experts.We can’t expect common man to identify malnutrition-ed children and help them.But common people can certainly act and help a baby.
I think you have now understood the difference.Anyway , shouting slogans against India in BOLD won’t prove you right.Also all your figures and data are highly inflated.
@Mohit-
I am not shouting anything, much less slogans against India.
The case & event of children is DEFINITELY an OBVIOUS and VISUAL CRISIS.
‘We can’t expect common man to identify malnutrition-ed children and help them.’
WHY NOT?
Do these children not look obviously malnourished to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HjpOetG1VA
Marasmus is a form of severe protein-energy malnutrition leading to an EMACIATED appearance, extensive tissue and muscle wasting, as well as variable edema. Other common characteristics include dry skin, loose skin folds hanging over the buttocks (glutei) and armpit (axillae).
Kwashiorkor typically sets in after marasmus in children. The defining sign of kwashiorkor in a malnourished child is swelling of the feet, swollen & distended belly, an enlarged liver with fatty infiltrates, thinning/ ginger colored hair, loss of teeth, skin depigmentation and dermatitis.
Often the grain/foods supplied by the Indian gov’t to those suffering malnutrtion are moldy & produce liver toxic aflatoxin poisoning.
You don’t need to be an expert to identify a starving child.
A newborn chid can survive up to 26 days without nutrtion but only 3 days wothout fluids.
You wrote & I quote-
‘Also all your figures and data are highly inflated.’
Prove this or retract your statement as an egregious lie.
Again that is all technical issue which can only be understood by an experts in child-care.See , I don’t deny that there are many children in India who are mal-nutritioned.But to say that Indians simply don’t care for them and equating this with the case of a child-malnutrition is classic case of exaggeration.
I can also see how you deviated the whole discussion on and directed the whole discussion to your favorite topic which is also related to your profession.
You gave us the data.So the onus of proving their accuracy is on you not me.
Correction-
for
“But to say that Indians simply don’t care for them and equating this with the case of a child-malnutrition is classic case of exaggeration.”
It should be –
“But to say that Indians simply don’t care for them and equating this with the case of a baby being ran over twice and nobody helping , is classic case of exaggeration.
I know.. Indians have the same attitude towards their poor as the white Americans had towards Black people of Norleans. True dat.
@Manny-
Ever been to ‘Nawlins’? Those are some of the fattest poor people (black or white) you’ll ever see. Bad analogy.
This is something you can ask the desi left christian congress supporting crowd… you know from your friends at JNU and the like.. Why being in power for 55 years out 65% since Independence they have been fighting to distribute poverty equally instead of creating wealth to alleviate this problem?
@Manny-
I don’t have any friends at JNU.
Low per capita income & food shortage isn’t the problem according to the link I posted above.
Myth-More than the level of income, it is inequality in the distribution of income that explains the prevalence of high malnutrition rates.
Fact: Not true.
Child malnutrition rates are lower than India’s among many countries that report similar levels of income inequality. Income inequality in Botswana, Mozambique and Cote d’Ivoire in Sub-Saharan Africa, for instance, is similar to India’s. Yet child malnutrition in these three countries ranges between 24 and 29 per cent, as against 47 per cent in India.
Also, compared to India, child malnutrition is lower among many countries in Sub-Saharan Africa with not only greater income inequality but also lower per capita incomes. Gambia, Mali, Nigeria and Guinea Bissau, for example, report both lower levels of income and greater income inequality, and yet levels of child malnutrition in these countries are lower than in India.
The difference is cultural.
The difference is a society that is indifferent & uncaring towards it’s hungry.
Why doesn’t the BJP ‘the party with a difference’ make a difference?
Why does Shiv Sena care more about protesting Valentine’s days than decreasing hunger?
Why is the Advani Yatra not concerned about the starvation & malnutrition of Indian children?
Why are platitudes such as the Commonwealth games, Formula 1 racing, silly space programs more important than the starvation & malnutrition of Indian children?
Why is the reality that a country desperate to take its place at the world’s top table is unwilling to commit to feeding its own population?
And to all faithfully nationalistic Indians… Yes, the truth hurts, sometimes. But its the truth, what can we do about it? Accept it, maybe, and try to do better?
Typical Tamasha Lies !
Why do *SOME* white women think that just because they married an Indian , can say anything about the country and its countrymen.
So just because Tamasha attended a clinic on malnutrition , everybody in India should leave what they are doing and go to Tamasha and ask what they can do to remove Malnutrition.
Typical ignorant left-wing rant of sympathizers of Separatists !
@Mohit-
If you are going to call me a liar then PROVE IT.
I don’t think anyone needs Tamasha to tell them what to do to alleviate malnutrition.
India has plenty of brains, talent, wealth & food to figure out how to solve the problem of malnutrition.
I’m just wondering WHY Indians don’t seem to consider it a priority to solve the problem of malnutrition & starvation of Indian children?
Why Should I ? You presented those data so the onus of proving them right is on you.Simple.
I didn’t call you anything,OK. But your claims about Child-Nutrition are absolute false and lies.There is definitely this problem of hunger and malnutrition in India but its not that Nobody is doing anything on that front.Thousand s of NGOs are working on that.In most of the cases problem is with the parents who are not aware about nutritious food for their child.
Also just because there is a problem of malnutrition doesn’t mean that India stop manufacturing cars , organizing sporting events , space-programs , etc ..that defies the logic of development.These all things are source of income and can not be sacrificed for some other issue.
Second thing is that , for your information , Formula One was totally a Private affair of Jaypee Group with no involvement of government.INR 2,000 crore was invested and employment was given to 10,000 people. Jaypee group do many social welfare program but they would never be highlighted and if they start their dream project for them , which would again be beneficial for many poor people , from their own money it become a pain in other’s ass.
So just because America has many homeless people , should Americans stop writing codes for software or manufacturing cars ? Absolutely not .
You are a liar because you write out stuff like –
“I’m just wondering WHY Indians don’t seem to consider it a priority to solve the problem of malnutrition & starvation of Indian children?”
The govt. does a lot. People at their own level, do a lot. So STFU. Liar.
Oh and before I forget you favorite nickname, Jihad Jane. JJ.
@Tamasha
I can see few folks waiting for your return and then set a trap for you to start a tamasha for them!
If you want to discuss, we sure can discuss on multitude of issues, but you will have to stop emotional charges and raise the swirling dust with each emotional charge.
You have to direct your comments to those who are willing to discuss rather than directing them to those who will play your game of shouting back.
I have started doubting your ulterior intentions, is it to stir things up and create “tamasha” or seriously engage in discussions.
We all know that discussions here is not going to drive any action to resolve any issue. But definitely would like to know what are the intended outcomes of your emotional outbursts?
@veeeeh-
My ‘outbursts’ certainly aren’t emotional (at least by Indian standards) but are to raise awareness of what’s really going on in India. I’m shocked at what I’ve seen, & continue to be shocked at the suffering & blatant disregard towards those who suffer in India. Especially when it all seems so unnecessary.
Do you know that ‘Plumpy-nut’ a specially formulated ‘veg’ food product made in France used by WHO & UNICEF with great success to avoid ‘refeeding syndrome’& hospitalization in malnourished patients in Africa has been BANNED since 2009 in India?
Why you may ask?
Because the Indian gov’t feels ‘Plumpy-nut’ may lead to ‘dependence’ on ‘foreign food products’.
I really don’t understand this way of thinking. Human life has less value than the economics of ‘foreign food dependence.
Completely bizarre.
I posted a link to this in another thread. But this can’t wait:
Quote:
My stomach churns when tourist types judge my life in India and try to induce guilt. As an example – A friend and I went for dinner with some visitors from DK. One of them asked how we could morally eat at that expensive place when there is so much poverty around us. He added that we were lucky to be born privileged. Many expats blog about how India makes them rethink with their own existentialism, with customary pictures of “Look! I played Holi with poor people in India”. Few are quick to judge Indians who live above the poverty line.
My dear bleeding hearts, especially the tourist kind, please remember India is a COUNTRY, not a cause.
It is a COUNTRY, as empathic as we are about the problems that ail it, we have real lives to lead here. So we work, earn and even oh! my god! accumulate wealth when we can. Most times we spend that wealth to satiate our own worldly desires. Is that a very difficult concept to understand?
Sure some are born rich. But most of us work very hard to hold jobs/run businesses in this country where opportunities are low and competition high. Should I give up restaurants, holidays, shopping? Should I be embarrassed of my indulgences when millions sleep hungry? Should I stop employing my maids and my errand boy because you tsk! tsk! their low wages. Perhaps they will be better off unemployed and hungry?
I think not. Unlike your prejudiced single trajectory view of India, India to us is a land of gazillion realities. We have the world’s poorest, there are those on Forbes richest, overpopulation, high mortality rates, a secular country with many instances of religious violence, people dying on the streets in a country where health tourism is on a boom, low levels of education and yet silicone valley would wither if all Indians quit. We accept it without apology, prejudice or pride.
Most of us exist in our alloted parallels. Few work selflessfly for the changes they want to see in the country. Most simply go to work and earn. If you have managed to feed and shelter yourself, you have already done the country a great favour.
If everyone were to be a full time bleeding heart, India would perish. It is the daily wage workers, the entrepreneurs, the middle class, the rich, the ones whom you judge so blatantly that drive the economy. An economy that will someday, hopefully divide the riches more equally and banish poverty.
My point is, I appreciate your feelings, please help if you can, but do not judge me because I am not a statistic in the sum of your ONLY preception of India. Dont judge me because I am not a cause you can pick.
Judgemental bleeding hearts annoy me even more than those suckers who come to India to seek Nirvana. ( A post on them some other time.)
And about that dinner, as you might expect, an animated discussion followed. Dont miss the irony that he was dining with us. Since he is from a developed/rich country is he more entitled to an expensive dinner than us, citizens of a poor country ?
Dear bleedin heart, spawn of a welfare society, SHUT UP! I probably earned my beer more than you earned yours.
To annoy you further, one time, I ate so much, I could not stand up.
- JUNE!
@Tamasha
I appreciate your grass root level work and direct contact with the downtrodden, unlike the paper tigers here who claim to have solution for India’s problems.
@ your statement of banning the food product. If that food product is allowed, the left politicians would argue that Indian farmers would not make money and the poor population will be dependent on the foreign food. The right politicians will make a hue and cry as it shows India as dependent on a foreign country and flare the flames of India’s glorious nationalistic traditions os self reliance.
The decision making is done by this breed and they have thier own political compulsions to maintain the status quo. This is not different from any country in the west. Politicians collectively never take a right decision, they take a populist decision.
With regard to apathy towards downtrodden, yes i agree that every third poor person of the world is an Indian. And I have seen misery of man dragging himself over the faeces and begging, or the mentally retarded people existing in inhuman conditions or women sexually exploited.
There was a mentally retarded person, who used to cut woods for the hotel nearby and used to push the cart stocked with wood to the hotel for about 2 miles. I was scolded by my parents not to help him push it against the sloped road, in front of my house.
We don’t have sensitized social structure that cares for the mentally ill, malnourished or old abandoned people. We have a social structure that is discrimnatory and propogates a belief that you deserve your fate of misery, for you accumulated negative karma in your past life. It indirectly makes everyone accountable for thier own misery.
You know the reasons are manifold with root cuase lying in the civic, legal, political, economical and social systems. And yes apathy is cultural, we don’t have security system, we don’t have foster care, we don’t have infrastructure for physically or mentally handicapped….and yes we don’t care for them.
As long as my family is good, the society is bound to be good. I do give money to those miserable beggars when I feel overwhlemed. I am not responsible for thier misery. I need to focus on my problem, my family, my children.
Why should I do it? Its government’s work.
Oh wait, I had to make a particular personality in me surface to say that!
@Tamasha. RE: plumpy nut. Actually it is not so bizarre. A friend of my parents is an anthropologist who worked for NGOs and he explained how in Africa, World Aid has had the perverse effect of making people want to eat wheat and rice rather than the homegrown mil ; people have become dependent on foreign product and stopped producing local plants. Some people say there’s a plan in this, an economic war plan.
What is bizarre is that some French peasants are now planting African cereals like sorgho because of the recent climate warming.
Then when you mention India, don’t forget to mention ration cards and subsidized food products.
The Author makes excellent points. Not taking that away from him.
But the only Issue I had with that article was the author had not lived outside India for more than 10 years. Just 10 years he has been away and he is shocked with India? Really? Was India nice and peaceful 10 years ago before he left for India to the US? That he decided to go back to India and then discover a shocking India on his return? Hmm… From that aspect, it sounds strange.
He sounds more like our Veeeeh. Been away a few years and then sounds off like India is so awful!
Ha Ha!
Yes, it’s a perfectly natural reaction assuming the writer left India straight after high school or college and returned to India after spending most of his adult life in the States. If he was a typical middle/upper middle class kid, he most likely lived a pampered and sheltered life, and never had to deal with the real (Indian) world (his parents did it for him). Going through school and college teaches one little about the hard realities of life in India, especially the parts that involve dealing with strangers. And 10 years is a long period of time in one’s life, buddy! Especially if it’s ages 20-30 or thereabouts. Enough to change one’s mental makeup.
Full disclosure: I returned to India earlier this year (also after 10 years, and under similar circumstances as I have described above), and can relate to the writer’s angst in many respects, though my motivations for returning (and remaining here) are quite different from his.
The irony of it is that Sumedh and the likes of him are no different when they live abroad. I’m an Indian born and brought up in the UK, and I see Indians abroad exactly the way he sees them in India, and therefore he would be one of them, no matter how self-righteous he portrays himself to be. Indians who left India left they way they did, and continue to remain so when they’re abroad. The host community maynot see, or notice or probably put it down to culture or personality when they see Indians behave they way they do abroad. Yet, other Indians will still ask for your caste, how much money you make, are you married blah blah blah….so how can you expect it to be different when you’re returning to the source? I’m sure he would still look down on the maid in the US, particularly if she was from a minority community. So let’s not point fingers at people in India….look within yourself Sumedh and see that in the end you’re still an Indian and behave like one. You were not a clean sheet before you left India that you’re now being defiled in some way upon your return. You simply forgot how you truly were and were brutally reminded.
Hi Tiger, thanks for your comment. You do raise a valid point. I’ve been told by other Indians who live abroad how many Indians will only mix with Indians of the same social standing. One example I was given was how some Indians living in Melbourne, but originally from the western suburbs (posher suburbs) of Mumbai, would only mix with other Indians who were from the western suburbs. What snobbery!!
Sadly I agree with you Tiger. Many Indians do maintain appalling attitudes and beliefs no matter how long they have lived in a foreign country. They even expect their foreign born children to adhere to strict Indian customs and marry only Indians. If you want your kids to be Indian then stay in India!
My Indian husband once asked me to accompany him to a Hindu temple in the USA. Upon seeing me, his white wife, a narrow-minded Indian aunty told him that she would be ashamed of him if she were his mother. He was shocked into silence but an apt reply would have been that he would be ashamed to be her son if she was his mother. The United States has had a long struggle of overcoming racism and although racism still exists we now have an African-American president. We do not need to import racists!
Ha Ha! Right on. I always say, Indians are who are good and broad minded and what not living in India, when they go abroad are the like that too.
A jerk from India is a jerk when he goes abroad.
I often see desis post about, how they were so narrow minded while they lived in India, but when they went abroad cured them off that disease! LOL
I understand traveling abroad may broaden your horizons a bit…but that’s only if you are open minded to being with.
Actually Sharell, in India when u do something good, people try to find out the real reason behind that kind gesture… And its more strange that at majority of times, there is a reason behind every kind act done by that person.
In this modern era u can’t live without money and most of the times it is the basic reason behind kind gestures and as a result of this people have become dumb, blind and deaf to the kind gestures. Even, in case of road accidents, people don’t care to help because simply they know even if they help out that person, relatives of that person and policemen also would relate the crime to the helping hand.
So, kind of u can say that living in india can u make live in the reality of modern era with its disadvantages, as compared to the western nations, where only advantegeous part is related to the modern living.
So, living in India is making u stronger person and stubborn to the bad parts of the life.
This is an interesting point, and is perhaps one of the reasons why visiting foreigners are so seemingly “dumb” sometimes when it comes to falling for scams.
You know the common scenario when a lone Indian approaches them and offers to show them around the city or invites them home for dinner to meet the family. They think “oh what a wonderful gesture, so friendly”, without realising the true intent behind it…. money. Then there’s another scenario, when the gesture is actually real and genuine. I was once invited home for dinner by a family in Varanasi, who I met sightseeing in Sarnath. It was a husband, wife, and daughter. We got chatting, and I accepted the invitation. I’m glad I did, because it was a wonderful experience and my first taste of ghar ka khanna (this was way back in 2000, during my first trip to India). Anyway, I told some Indian work colleagues about it when I got back home, and they were horrified…. thinking the worst… how something bad could’ve happened to me because “you can’t trust kind gestures”.
I’ll tell u an experience with my Mum!!! Its way back relating to my schooling days, when we used to live in joint family with our office and residence in the same building. Though, it was an old building but as far as area wise it was too big having numerous entry points. My mother was in the kitchen doing her cooking, we always have one permanent home help (a boy that time) and maid was there too washing utensils. There came a salesman, who told my mother to get her ornaments esp. gold bangles she was wearing cleaned and shined up. My mother hesitantly admitted him and this man entered inside the kitchen, poured some chemicals into the pan and kept the same on gas flame. My mother realised that there was something fishy in his act and asked the home help (boy) to call my dad (he’s an advovate practicing in I. tax) from the office. The salesman never thought that the little looking house from that place could be so big to afford an office inside it and kept doing his things (actually he was doing something to just remove the gold content from the bangles into the liquid like chemical). And my dad, was busy with some clients (I was to school at that time). My dad came after being called twice and soon he just realised the act and gave that guy a beating to make him run leaving everything as it is. And after that we took that chemical to a jeweller, who was really surprised by the fact of the contents of that chemical.
And since that day…. we all my mother,sister and me never entertain these salesmen!!! So, kind of this incident has made us deaf even to those persons who are really needy/kind actual salesmen and not fake ones. We never opened our door to strangers since then.
These incidents in India make us stronger, I feel that helping out that person by purchasing from him w’d fetch him some commission but after such incidents how could one think of helping out such needy salesmen….!!!
My gosh!! That is shocking. What a scam! It’s incredible what some people come up with. You’re right, how can you be trusting in such circumstances.
Here’s a thoughtful response to the article, by author Chetan Bhagat.
http://www.chetanbhagat.com/blog/2011/10/24/happy-diwali-and-why-i-am-still-here/
Nice article by Chetan Bhagat. But that would never get published in
NYTrash… errr, I mea, NYTimes.
BTW…Americans love to read about immigrants who come to America because they can’t stand their old country. Write about, how you got persecuted in your old country and how coming to America gave you freedom, they would go “Verklempt” (an SNL term) here.
Now, now. NYT is effectively my employer since they own About.com. I can’t let you say anything bad about them!
Oh yeah..I forgot!
NYTimes..Nicey Nicey!
Thank you for a beautiful post Sharell. This is the sort of article that I wish Sumedh Mungee had written.
Oh wow, thank you!
I didn’t think my post was that special. I’m glad you liked it so much.
I agree that India has brought a side of me I didn’t know I had, as for saying it is bad, well my mom complains I’ve become thick skinned, but in a country of such harsh contrast as India this is a necessity.
slapping persistent beggars…check…screaming bloody hell at the umpteenth hawker to annoy the crap out of me in 20 minutes spent on Juhu beach..check. My mom was with me then, and she understood the necessity of being what would be defined as awfully rude in Switzerland, but she still doesn’t like it one bit and fully comprehend why I like living in India.
I smiled at your pushing women in the train, I didn’t do it in a local train, but did it in plenty of places, supermarkets being the first place coming to my mind
I think as a returning Indian I would maybe feel like the author, repatriation often is difficult and might confront you with flaws you didn’t notice before leaving. Living as an expat end up changing you more than you could imagine. I know myself I just couldn’t live in Switzerland again, I went for 2 months in 2008 and I felt like a tourist, which it probably was considering I don’t live there anymore, but there is something odd about the country you lived in for 24years to turn into a strange place after a 5 years absence.
Its really not surprising that some people born in India, brought up here spends few years abroad and when come back to the same place he found it difficult to adjust. Well its understandable as he/she is used to of comforts of life in that foreign country. India doesn’t change any person in Bad. It always bring out a different personality of yours which doesn’t come out. Be in a situation like India in any other country e.g. traffic jam and you will find a lot of people loosing their cool. If you keep the lil adjusting attitude, India will also be a place to live comfortably.
I really respect and appreciate Sharell for the way she has adhusted herself to India lifestyle.
Hey Sharell, Whishing you a Very Happy Diwali and a Very Happy New year in advance (in too advance I guess).
)
Amit
Happy Diwali and happy Hindu new year to you too! Thanks so much for the kind wishes and remarks.
Hindu New Year ? Isn’t it too early to wish something which would come in April 4.
http://www.deepavali.net/
Just Because the information is available on net don’t make it credible.There are many Hindu-Calendars through out India.Some are based on Lunar-Calendar and some are based on Solar-Calendar.
But the calendar system which is most popular in most regions of India is VIKRAM-SAMVAT.The Vikrama Samvat was founded by the emperor Vikramaditya of Ujjain following his victory over the Sakas in 56 BCE, although it is popularly (and incorrectly) associated with the subsequent king Chandragupta Vikramaditya. It is a lunar calendar based on ancient Hindu tradition (see Hindu calendar and Vedic time keeping). The Vikram Samvat calendar is 56.7 years ahead (in count) of the solar Gregorian calendar. For example, the year 2056 BS began in CE 1999 and ended in CE 2000. In Northern India the calendar starts with the first day after the new moon in the month Chaitra, which usually falls in March/April in the Gregorian calendar.
So, it’s one of many new years! But still a new year!
Baisaki is the new year, not the Deepawali.
We don’t have Baisaki in Maharastra, it’s called Gudi Padwa. But you can’t discount the lunar New Year as not being a New Year — afterall, the lunar calendar is very important for determining events.
Sharell ,
“Many times, honest and hard working home help are shocked when their employers are kind and generous to them because they’re not used to it. There is a lack of middle ground where respectfulness and honesty are just everyday things that everyone comes to expect.’
Interesting ! The expression on the face of persons who are considered low in economic class like Drivers/Pumbers/Rikshaw-Puller/Waiters at small dhabas are CLASSIC , when I pour much more money on them than they expected or dreamed to demand.
They find me absolutely crazy.Because the thing is that I negotiate with them VERY HARD , argue with them for the reason of money they are charging and in then end up giving them much more than they expected.They are flabbergasted if I am Joking with them. I am a good negotiator.But under the clever and hard-negotiator , there is a Moral-judge in me who work 24×7. Seriously , I feel so sad and low seeing the people struggling to get two meal per day.Sometimes I start hating myself for earning money 20 times more than a person who do 40 times hard labor then me.
But , I try to neutralize that asymmetric wage pattern by nice gestures of giving Rickshaw-Puller INR 50 when he just asked for 30 INR or give waiters in Dhabas/Small Eateries when they least expect it or inviting plumber for the Lunch/breakfast , etc. Some times my family doesn’t agree with my largesse and they are in fact right considering how system works.
I read FASCISM 3-4 day ago and to my surprise It didn’t come out as an evil Idea which it is made out to be.It was like amalgam of “Communism and Capitalism” or “Left-into-Right” … but It was a fairly thought-out Idea.
That’s really kind of you. I do similar things, particularly helpful richshaw walas etc who haven’t tried to cheat me, I always give them extra. I’m a bit stuck in what I can do though, because I don’t want them to get the wrong impression of “white people” as money fountains. That will just encourage wrong perceptions and behaviour.
If you using a rikshaw and finalize a fare before boarding you always can guess the distance and the hard work the rikshaw puller has done. So, at the end you can give 10-15 rupees extra what you had finalize earlier. Thats what I usually do.
We only have auto rickshaws in Mumbai, no hand pulled ones. They’re usually decent enough thankfully. Every time I’ve been in a hand pulled rickshaw in Delhi and Kolkata, they’ve always demanded high fares, so no bonus for them.
Sharell
“Every time I’ve been in a hand pulled rickshaw in Delhi and Kolkata.’
But there are no hand-pulled Rickshaw in Delhi , only Tricycle Rickshaw.
Oh yes, true! My mistake. I have only been on cycle ones in Delhi.
If the Autoriksahw is equipped with the Meter then no need to give them any extra buck as the fares are already more then enough.
They do go by the meter, but sometimes I just like to surprise the decent ones with a bit extra.
But apparently, the meter isn’t enough…the rickshaw walas have been going on strike yet again demanding another fare increase (they had one not so long ago). Necessary or greedy?
Speaking as an Indian, who lived in the US for many years, before re-locating back to India, there are many things about India that bother me.
1) SPM (Spits per minute);
Why must Indians spit while walking on the road, or out the window of their vehicle ? Where does it say that you are required to spit every so often ?
I’ve gone whole years without once spitting, and I turned out just fine.
This spitting problem is much worse in Maharashtra and in North India, than it is in the south.
2) Driving on the wrong side of the road.
3) Driving with your HIGH-BEAM on :
Why must Indians drive within the city with their headlamps set to HIGH-BEAM ? They blind people driving on the other side of the road, as well as people ahead of them on the same side of the road.
I hardly ever turn on the HIGH-BEAM of my car.
4) Driving while Honking :
Somebody once told me that the horn-switch in most Indian vehicles is located beneath the driver-seat, and is activated when the driver sits on his seat. Today, I know this to be true. Forget about honking while driving, most Indians indulge in driving while honking.
I make it a point to observe every single traffic-rule while driving in India.
I’ve retained all of my good habits from my days driving in the USA.
Thus, I patiently wait till the count-down clock at the stop-light counts down to zero, and the green-arrow actually comes on. Meanwhile, the folks waiting behind me are all already moving when the countdown clock is still at 20 secs.
Similarly, I gradually come to a halt at the traffic-intersection, if the signal has turned orange. I also come to a complete halt at all intersections, look both ways, and only then proceed. One of these days, I am going to get rammed from behind, but, oh, well !
I also follow a pedestrians-first policy. I also brake gradually, whenever I observe animals close to my car.
If more people started driving American in India, we could get a whole safe-driving movement going in India.
The “driving while honking” (love it!) REALLY irritates me (and my delicate ears). It is just completely unnecessary, and completely loses its desired impact because people do it indiscriminately all the time. Plus, there are so many people honking all at once, it’s hard to tell who’s honking at who! There have been many times that I’ve been honked at in Australia — usually at traffic lights and my mind has been elsewhere, and I haven’t realised the light has turned green. It sure makes me jump and take notice. And I feel really guilty if I get honked at. In India, the honking (and lack of disciplined driving) is just a major source of irritation. I have driven in India, during the auto rickshaw rampage from Chennai to Mumbai. After 4 days driving, I’d become really aggressive…. and started honking all the time too. Here’s my take on it: http://goindia.about.com/b/2009/08/05/mumbai-xpress-day-5-mysore-to-mangalore.htm
In regards to honking, efforts to stop it are just “half assed” (Aussie slang) just like efforts to curb the noise during Diwali. In Mumbai they have surprise No Honking days, where the cops go about fining drivers who honk for just one day! It happens once a year or so. Why don’t they make every day a no honking day and fine drivers every day of the year. It would have much more impact than fining people when half the time they’re not even aware that it’s a No Honking day. Stupid! Love these kind of hoardings though: http://www.whiteindianhousewife.com/2009/05/funny-photo-horns-are-evil/
As for the spitting, if paan and gutka (spelling?) were banned, I’m sure the amount of spitting would noticably decrease. Especially in nothern India.
Chris ,
Bro , I never lived in America and still our thoughts on this Traffic-Issue are exactly same.
I am just Sick of Drivers and Traffic in Delhi ! It kinda scares me specially when I have been in three accident within a year , thankfully without being seriously injured. But all three cars of mine were Totally Damaged.Thank God , I was safe.And every time my car was thrashed from back-side for no fault of mine.That’s big story !
My List for most irritating behavior in Drivers in Delhi goes as following .
1. Honking- That would always be on the Top.Honking must be declared our National Anthem and Horn , our National Musical Instruments.I mean , drivers in Delhi just go on pressing horn button without any PURPOSE or NEED. They honk even when they are on traffic signal even after knowing fully well that their blowing horn is not going to make Signal GREEN for them or reduce the clock from 60 to 6 seconds but still they honk. They honk , when they see a pedestrian crossing the road on a Pedestrian Crossing ! Wtf , do they think that person on his feet least deserved to cross them ?
And if any good driver LIKE ME , try to give way to pedestrians and stop at crossing , the frequency and period of honking increases behind me and it confuses the pedestrian too much that he step back and all my time and effort to let him cross the road goes in vain.
To tackle these “Horn-Terrorist” I have installed a Digital Display on the back of my Car. Which have two display-
a- “Don’t Honk Unnecessarily , Even Dogs don’t Bark without a Reason.”
b- “Let the Road be Clear , I am not gonna build a Home on Road. ”
These display have two buttons on the dashboard of the car and I press it when these terrorist bother me.
2. LANE-DRIVING- I think drivers in Delhi have just got a different meaning for Lane Driving.They confuse it with ‘Line-Driving’.They drive in such a way that the White Painted strips on the road are between their wheels.And they feel very PROUD in doing that as they are driving on the Line.Fools ! And most of these drivers are , as I have observed , Either Woman or Old People and professional drivers. They simply don’t have any concern for rules.Most of the traffic Jams are occurred because people are impatient and don’t follow their Lane.
Also I have seen people actually moving their vehicle when clock still show 15 second and actually blocking the way for vehicles for which signal is green.Seeing those slowly moving forward slowly and instinctively on traffic signal reminds me of the domestic lizards who proceed in the same fashion to hunt their pray and brooom ! when the clock shows [00] .
Last but not least , Two of my accident occurred on the pedestrian crossing when I stopped to give people the way to cross and then speeding vehicle from Behind hit me so hard that my car was turned upside down and I was trapped.
Somebody please teach Delhite how to drive sensibly !
Mohit, I found your comment in the spam folder and was kind enough to rescue it!
Sharell ,
Thank you very very much ! You know I am so lazy in typing the same thing over and over.If I wasn’t so lazy in typing my excellent thoughts , Amir Khan would have made 3 Idiots on my Novel and not on Chetan’s .
From now onwards ,I appoint you as my Royal-Guards of Blogland.
Please touch my feet too!
If ever we meet , I would definitely do that for you.
I wrote such a lengthy post here but It refused to be posted even after 3-4 efforts .This Blog has been Haunted ! It need to be Crossed !
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Oh no, you have been experiencing a few untoward incidents lately. Maybe I should call in this guy? http://www.whiteindianhousewife.com/2010/09/the-solution-to-all-my-problems/
OMG ! , The ghost even ate up the left part of cross.It must be a big monster !
Your cross became a lingam
Let me see it from all angle
No , it hasn’t ! Actually cross is nothing but a modern and revolting version of Lingam. When Ligam grow two hands it become a CROSS.
See how it happens-
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Good job, I hope you can keep it up and not eventually succumb to the Indian way of driving. I have been following all traffic rules as well. Except when the signals don’t work (or are switched off for some weird reason), I just push through as aggressively as I am capable of.
I have on occasion stopped to yield to pedestrians trying to cross the road. The look on their faces was pure gold. I am sure the honking behind me must have risen to as-yet-unseen heights, but I thankfully didn’t have to hear it as I usually turn up the music loud enough for that very purpose.
One pet peeve of mine is the way people behave at intersections, when they want to turn right or make a U-turn. Absolutely no one is content to queue up at the rightmost lane. No, everyone will try to creep up by the side, so that a convergent set of queues is formed all the way to the leftmost part of the road. This leaves no space for the people going straight ahead , who are compelled to wait till folks have completed their right turn.This has been the biggest source of traffic jams in the Delhi NCR as per my observation. And if a cop is around, he makes no effort to rectify the situation.
One theory of mine about why the driving culture is so bad is that the vast majority of drivers on the road are professional (or personal) drivers. They only feel responsible to their car’s passenger/owner. I think they feel duty-bound to deliver their passengers to their destinations in the shortest amount of time possible, traffic rules be damned. If more people started driving their own cars, they may feel more socially responsible and behave themselves. But since new car owners get scared of the traffic and feel compelled to employ a driver, a vicious feedback loop is created. I’m not sure how that loop can be broken.
Kris,
You’re right about the right-turn / U-turn (mis)behavior of Indian drivers.
I think that it has to do with the fact that the roads here do not contain a designated right-turn/U-turn lane. If such a designated turn-lane were provided, and people were educated to queue up in the designated turn-lane only, they would soon learn to start doing so, thus leaving the rest of the lanes open for people traveling straight ahead.
Of course, to have such a designated turn-lane, one would have to re-design the roads themselves ( because the turn-lane has to disappear, ahead of the intersection), and there simply isn’t enough space to re-design the roads here.
Maybe, for the new roads being built in India, they could do this.
It’s a mystery why in 2011 they can’t build the road-systems in India, that were built in the 1920′s in the USA !!
Dear All ,
On the eve of a great festival of Lights and its victory over darkness of evil , I wish from the bottom of my heart that you , your family and your surroundings glow forever with the light of Happiness and Prosperity.
Let’s Make India a better place to Live and Work.
And I ask all Mumbaikars not to burst High-Decibel Crackers as it may have bad effects on the delicate inner wall in the ears of our Dear Sharell, So please cooperate..
Jai Hind ,
Jai Maharashtra
Jai Australia
Mohit ki jai ho!
Take note all!
But seriously, it’s the festival of lights…. let off some lovely fireworks instead of frightening birds, animals, and people with deafening noise!
I support u Mohit bhai…
Thank you , Benaam Badshah !
I agree with the observations of the writer, but completely disagree with his inference
I have lived in a certain country of the west and have been privy to vicious oops subtle staring (and its cousins, and other relatives) from people. Clearly most people who love living there are blissfully unaware of it what with staring being so common in india.
Thats putting things in a nutshell, I agree about all the good things about non – Indian countries, essentially basic manners, and law and order, which is lacking in india, not my state west bengal though.
In my ‘great’ life in a certain country in the west, the vicious staring oops subtle looking from the corner of the eye ensured that I could not even step out of the house. In fact living in the certain country of the west opened my eyes to the great humanity that I have access to, and which is dead in few places, and the things I took for granted or overlooked or did not appreciate, I gained respect for my country after coming back.
The bad experiences that the writer talks of in india, are bad experiences anyone can have when dealing with working class anywhere. Need I mention how my cable operator, taxi service, delivery services, moving men, painters in the western country kept me waiting for hours ? I said I would be off for one hour but had to take the entire afternoon off because the service men will take 1, no 2, no 3, no 4 more hours to get there ? I cannot avail of the service on a weekend as they do not work weekends? And the attitude I had to deal with, from them ? As for indian rudeness, well, it is particular of certain indian cultures, and not most. The unpleasant incidents the writer talks of, I met with worse situations with salesmen and poor people (mostly immigrant foreigners) of the western country I lived in, and I was fearing for my life – there was such hatred and violence in the interaction. In india it is mere venting of anger, that is in the moment, and I know it will not go beyond that, to stalking and other scary things.
Maybe I should write a counter article to the writer who does speak the truth, but one sided.
Piu ,
Though , I agree with most of your post in principle but am in confusion regarding some statements of yours.Please care to clarify , if you don’t mind.
1. “and law and order, which is lacking in india, not my state west bengal though.”
Did you mean to say that all is well and better in WB than rest of India? Have we forgotten Singur , Naxals , Maoists Attack , etc.
2.”I was fearing for my life – there was such hatred and violence in the interaction.”
Life is most important and even after it was in danger still you stayed there , strange.
3. “Maybe I should write a counter article to the writer who does speak the truth, but one sided.”
This is just for fun. I mean to say that in Debate , one person is there to Speak FOR a subject and another one AGAINST it.So it make sense that he just wrote one sided view leaving another side for you to write.
Please explain where, why and how you get “Life is most important and even after it was in danger still you stayed there , strange.” from the piece.
Are you said it that your life was in danger.
Here is what you said –
“”I was fearing for my life – there was such hatred and violence in the interaction.”
“
@Piu. I totally agree with you. Working class, and big cities too. And also what you and Sharell are hinting at, which is the infuritating glass walls of cultural misunderstandings !
BTW..I have a genuine question for desis here.
Apart from Hindu culture in India (or your own personal family), what is there in India that is worth anything to coming back for?
Interesting question. Escape from cold winters, eh Manny?
I am imagining an India where Nehru and the Kerala/Bengali leftists gets their way and India loses its Hindu culture (The horrible Hindu Hindutva culture) and replace every temple, Gurudwar and Jain temple with a Church, Cathedral and Mosque and statue of Chairman Mao and EV Ramaswamy of the Dravidian klan. And I have no family in India. I would then be insane to visit India.
If you remove the Hindu culture from India. Lets say, the majority population become Islamic or Christianity or Nehruvian atheistiic and If I have no family there, IMO, India is a wasteland. I may as well visit Haiti!
But there is so much history, and amazing architecture in India. Beautiful countryside in places too. It’s just a shame that it’s overpopulated.
Yes…in about 100 years, Hindu culture would be like the Inca culture.. .a good touristic spot where the temples used to be. The few stragglers, the religious Hindus would be spread out like Jews around the world. The Indian govt wants it this way. They have been furiously working towards this end.
What you would see as culutral icons of India would be huge statues of Mayawati and Karunanidhi and his son Stalin (WOW ….what a name) and Sonia and Rahul and Rajeev (The little one yet to be born)….and every other iff raff.
Many ,
Hindu Culture doesn’t even feature in my list of Priority ! My Logic is very simple.We have not been born to Change the world.We have a limited life.Why waste it living far from the comfort of HOME , away from family and natural friends.
I think there is no any materialistic pleasure in the whole wide world which is not available Here in India , if you have money.And that is true for whole world.Nobody is going to give me dollars just to see my handsome physique or Face , if I am not a Model/Actor.
So , I ask counter-question – What is the reason to live and work in Foreign countries when even they won’t give you Dollars/Euros/Dirham without working.So work for your country , stay near to your family and friends and get all the luxury of life in a subsidized price.
The Latest reason for me to stay in Gr Noida is Formula-1 Track and Race which I am going to see on 30th July , brooooooommmm !
You are right.. most desis who go abroad and not return to India are working class… with some exceptions.
I have a cousin who has his own business in India. He and his wife travels all over the world once a year atleast. He studied abroad too and then went back to his business which more money that most desies here could make…unless they were in Silicon Valley with a large stock option purchase plan.
And Yes, I have my DVR to record the F1 this Sunday. I’ll be watching.
Its kind of early here…4:00 am is way too early to get up on a Sunday.
Just hold a pre-grand prix party and don’t go to bed!
Manny,
I agree with you.
It’s only the Hindu-culture and the Hindu-ethos of India that keeps me coming back for visits to India.
Soon, with the current anti-Hindu Government in office, we can expect to see the Hindu culture slowly disappearing away altogether.
Bollywood is a prime example of this.
I thought you might like this witty limerick that is doing the rounds on the Internet :
Klown Khan :
There once was a talentless Klown named Rukh-Rukh
So mediocre was he that he didn’t merit a second look
But his Khan-name he encashed with the D-Mafia
Declared the D-Mafia, “A Bolly-King we’ll make ya !”
So now, we’re stuck with the stammering old Crook !
Another Desh-Bhakt !
But I like Sharuck Khan and Amir Khan and all the Khans!
I also agree..with this christian govt, that colludes with Campus Crusade and what not, would replace every single Temple and Gurduwar with a cross on top and in a few years (It has already happened in Kerala and South Tamilnadu), India would be everything our resident Tamasha describes… a larger version of Haiti where people are peeing and pooping all over, where every preacher and priest are going to constantly steal back and forth from each others flock for their jealous green goblin up in the heavens.
It wouldn’t be worth a place to pee on.
@Manny. Christians in India represent 2% of the population at the most. What you say about Kerala and Tamil Nadu is simply not true.
You are always saying bad things about western culture although you live in the West, and now you don’t know why anybody would go back to India… ?!?!?!
Not to mention the systematic bashing of Veeeh.
The vision you present of life is very depressing.
“Christians in India represent 2% of the population”
this is incorrect! This was from a census 30 years old.
I am from Kanya Kumari. This district is now, 55% christians.
South Korea was less than 2% 40 years ago. Today, its almost 45% and growing.
@Manny. Kanya Kumari ?! Okaaaaaaaaaay, I get it, my husband claims everybody in Tamil Nadu is scared about you people because you get easily angry and beat people up !
(We have family there)
And what’s more one time he’d went there (Kanya Kumari)and asked what gift I wanted, I requested for salt. Only I was thinking he would bring me a small packet in a pretty box, like they do in Guerande, but he bought me 1 kg of Tata salt and got arrested by French customs as they could see tools and a big packet of white powder in his luggage !
Oui! We don’t beat people up….Provided they behave!
You are mixing “western culture” with “Christian culture” that came from the middle east. I have no major issues with “Western culture”.
Your guess is far from reality. I think you are over-estimating the influence congi government.Common Indians may give vote to Congress , because of lack of an alternative , but their evil anti-hindu designs won’t be accept by people who are staunchly against even BJP/RSS.
the vast majority of Hindus don’t even know that Temples funds are controlled by the govt. Just ask around.
Above comment is proof of SRK being a big fail as he didn’t succeeded much in conveying his message , that -
My Name is Khan and I am not a terrorist !
completely agree!
look at Hrithik Roshan…
where is he now?
Why did you leave in the first place and what are you trying to prove ?
When I left, I went to West Africa. Too young and too stupid and too adventurous and too liberal too?
@Manny. Did you ever go back to India ?
I was in India this March. I was also in India last year February,
Have you seen the movie “Swadesh”?
I can relate to this post as well- not in India, but in China. I have wondered for the last four years how China has changed me and it is in ways mentioned here. I can hold my own in the queue, throw an elbow on the subway – I even found myself shouting a rather impolite comment at a scooter who cut me off when I crossed the street. At what point do you cross the line?
Hi Greta,
Welcome and thanks for commenting. You know, I just had a thought, what’s “bad” is actually really relative. What we consider to be bad in western culture is actually often okay in Eastern cultures, such as lack of please and thank you in India, and pushing and shoving. People don’t really think anything of it, but for us it’s quite offensive…. then when we adopt the same behaviour, we feel bad.
Thanks for the reply. I’ve seen that in China as well. There is a phrase in Chinese – 我不习惯 which translates to “I am not accustomed to it.” It doesn’t mean it is good or it is bad, just it’s something I’m not used to. Ironically enough it sounds very similar to “I don’t like it” in Chinese, but I think it underlines a cultural difference.
So, this one time, I came across really boorish behavior in the USA.
The guy driving the rental-car-company’s shuttle-bus from the airport to the car-rental-counter at LAX airport :
I was just clambering on board the bus at the airport’s designated pick-up location, when the bus-driver started driving the vehicle forward. I almost fell backwards ( I was holding luggage in each of my two hands).
I went across to the bus-driver to take a look at him, and sure enough, the driver was a Puckistani – I could tell from his looks, his name-tag, and from the particular dialect of Punjabi that he spoke while talking on his cell-phone. I should have guessed. Who but a Puckistani would behave so moronically, in the USA ?
Then, while alighting from the bus, the bus-driver was helping a white family with all their luggage, thus completely blocking the doorway of the bus. I had to alight from the bus, and run to the rental-car counter, as I was already terribly behind schedule. I considered shoving him the hell out of the way, but decided against it, having realized that I wasn’t in Kansas ( or Slumbai) anymore.
Its probably the heat. Indian summers could fry omelets.
Quips apart, refinement of manners and behaviour comes with a life of comfort, pleasure and wealth. For most Indians, life is an everyday struggle for survival, since there are so many people sharing the small pool of available resources (which again, are usually ‘watered down’ in quality). Hence, the mean-ness.
I still can’t fathom how the average Indian survives the country. If it were me, I’d have picked up arms and incited a revolution.
“I still can’t fathom how the average Indian survives the country. If it were me, I’d have picked up arms and incited a revolution.”
It’s the Hindu culture that has not turned them into violent maniacs. When they leave this and convert….they become Maoists. Violent mob.
Abdullah ,
“I still can’t fathom how the average Indian survives the country. If it were me, I’d have picked up arms and incited a revolution.”
I don’t think you are capable of doing that.
Well, at least it’s only mean-ness of the garden-variety sort that prevails in India. What really astounds me is getting lectured about manners and civilizations from people whose ancestors managed to kill 60 million people in 2 World Wars. Hmmm….maybe Indians need to get involved in a World War. All the “rude, inconsiderate” sorts will get killed. The survivors will all be nice, courteous and refined – and will enjoy American subsidies while sneering at American lack of culture. You know, sort of like the Europeans did until recently, when Uncle Sam decided to close his wallet.
OK, that’s not what I really think. Just feeling grumpy and therefore ready to take on those from superior, formerly genocidal, civilizations.
“If it were me, I’d have picked up arms and incited a revolution.”
Who would you take up arms against?
The congress liberal left christian party has managed to remain in power for 90% of the time. They own the 600 million and the lefitsts of India who continue to “elect” them.
In a way, they would deserve it if the pitch fork folks storm the Bastille of the congress party.
@ Manny
Thats a hard sell, Manny. You just have to watch the antics of Hindu mobs against the weaker sections of the society (religious minorities, dalits, etc.) to know how non-violent and peaceful they are. The Indians who fought valiantly against powerful enemies have traditionally been atheists – Bhagat Singh and Subhash Bose.
@ Mohit gupta
You are right. Its been close to 8 years since I actually fought in a war and I’ve softened up since. But still, if I were an Indian and in a tight situation, it wouldn’t have hurt to try…
“You just have to watch the antics of Hindu mobs against the weaker sections of the society (religious minorities, dalits, etc.) ”
Religious minorities like who? The Sikhs? The Jains? The Jews? The Zorastrians? Nah! There is no history of religious Hindus against these weaker section of society. Sorry! Not true.
I don’t think living in India turns you into a bad person. Right here, in the good ole’ USA, can turn anyone into a bad person. The inner cities… with high crime rates and poverty. The rural communities where people can be very close minded to anyone that does not look like them and keep “others” out. In the suburbs, you can find those who employ illegal immigrants and pay them low wages and exploit them. This is not an Indian thing but a Human thing!!!
Hi Sharell,
I honestly believe India has made me a calmer person. I have been living in Hyderabad for almost a year now, and the adjustment was initially frustrating. Granted, the motorists are horrific, the beggars are relentless (a single Chinese-Malaysian shopping at the weekend farmer’s market spells money, I guess) and the crowds are overwhelming (I worked for 6 years in Singapore, a very clean and organized city). If I based it only on that, then I would say India has so far made me an impatient grumpy woman. But honestly it hasn’t.
The people are warm. I’m in IT, our staff is about 3/4 Indian. The young people are highly intelligent and very hard-working. The women are very friendly. Much different to my overly competitive colleagues in S’pore. These women have introduced me to their husbands who visit them at work (something that has never happened in my previous job), and have given me so much gifts (I L-O-V-E their shawls and kurtas). I have been toured with my other foreign colleagues around the city which is new to me. In other countries, if you are a foreigner and you are alone, you are literally alone.
I’m an atheist myself yet I find the spirituality of Hinduism fascinating. A colleague once told me their spirituality is rooted from “oneness”. I really like, sometimes envy, the simplicity of their lives. They don’t need much to be happy. There is a certain fulfillment that they have in having enough. One thing I know about my colleagues (and their families) is that they are contented with what they have. Maybe to some that may mean that they are uninspired or lazy but I see that as satisfaction. That is something that I think I will never find. The essence of what I see, hear and feel is that they are simple, which truly humbles me. Don’t get me wrong though, my Indian colleagues are hardworking (and rich), yet they know when to say, “I’m happy with what I have”.
Add that to their food, celebrations (I’ve attended a beautiful wedding reception), and yoga (I’m addicted), I’d say India made me a happier more contented, simpler person.
I love your blog, and I cannot wait to get my hands on your book.
Thanks,
Gina Ong
Wow, I need to paraphrase that horrible third paragraph:
“The spirituality of Hinduism fascinating. A colleague once told me this is rooted from “oneness”. I envy the simplicity of their lives. They don’t need much to be happy. Sometimes, I feel like I’ll never find that fulfillment. Don’t get me wrong though, my Indian colleagues are hardworking (and rich), yet they know when to say, “I’m contented with what I have”.”
Hahaha
@Gina. You do seem relaxed and happy
Are you referring to Oneness Movement ?
wow, I love your blog, thank you! I’ve been living in India for a year an 1/2 and have totally experienced myself transform from a once polite, fun and perhaps even charming girl into a strong, rage-filled bitch-woman. The place is insane. I couldn’t leave before because there is just too much more to know about India, and about myself in India. That said, I am currently on a visa run in Thailand and subsequently reacquainting myself with the inner peace that comes from being able to take a long walk without getting groped. Anyhow, my respite here ends soon and I’ll be heading back into that exciting, shit-soaked, holy mosh-pit in a few days. Looking forward to following your blog from there!
Sharell ,
Please convery my feeling to Sumedh Mungee as following ! Actually I read his whole article only today and found him a very very poor human being as far as Humanity is concerned.
“Sumedh Mungee , What a Self-Obsessed and Insensitive creature you are ! ”
I was actually shocked to see his own bigotry in his following statements judgement about a group of people.Have a look.
“Three months after our return, after a friend told me that his two children were sick with amoebiasis — he thought they got it from their maid — my wife and I designated a separate set of dinnerware for our maids. It’s more hygienic.”
OMG ! And even after doing such insensitive and discriminating thing , he even has the audacity to accuse Indians of Bigotry and Stereotyping. See what he say –
“but in India, I could see the bigotry in high fidelity and hear the stereotypes in surround-sound”
Ans just SEE , what he has to say on a public platform , that too an international , about Indian maids and drivers -
” It only encourages them to ask for more; besides, they’re all liars.”
I never want that inhumane creature to ever come back in India EVER.We don’t want such HYPOCRITE and WEEK creatures in India who , just after drinking bottled water for 10 year in America , have lost digesting power for the water of their mother country and milk of their mother.
Mohit, I don’t know the guy! If you want to get your feelings conveyed, you’ll have to do it yourself!
That’s a big Problem , indeed !
Actually , I tried but the original post didn’t have any comments section.Anyway who cares.Let him go anywhere he wants.India didn’t invite him.
I am damn sure , he got a very plum Job-offer from India and he accepted that and when he got another offer form America , he again went there.Otherwise what was the reason to go back to America after 2 Years.If I don’t like the place , I won’t be there for even two months.
He tried to blame his routine Job/Place relocation on the Bigotry and Difficulties of India.Totally opportunistic Stuff !
@ Mohit Gupta
I would cut him some slack, Guptaji. When you expatriate to some country, getting back to your home country gets more and more difficult as time goes on. Especially if it changes as drastically as some countries (India, China, Russia, etc.) did in the last decade or so.
The last time I have been to Moscow, I wasn’t sure it was the city I grew up in. It has nothing to do with hating the country.
Uh oh, Mohit doesn’t like to be “ji-ed”. I got in trouble for it!
Sharell Bahini ji ,
I can give you a discount on that front as I actually developed a taste for respecting abuses.You can call me “Ji” , “G” , “MG” , “CWG” , “2G” or “G-one” (Latest Evil in the town).
Abdullah ,
“The last time I have been to Moscow, I wasn’t sure it was the city I grew up in.”
But then you are not saying that all the drivers/domestic help in Russia are Lier. Or that it is making you a bad person , etc , etc.
What you find amusing the liberal trash newspapers of the US. How they selectively pick far left desi arses for their editorial content. This is so common. There is another “Joseph” dude from Kerala who writes article in NYTrash about how awful India’s culture is…and a subtle Christian supremacy/Anti Hindu tone to his article.
The “Liberal” NYT by selecting Desies for their dig at India, thinks it can inoculate itself from racism. This is a common MO here in the US. This happens when Hindus object to how “Hinduism” is taught to school kids here in their text book. When the Indians here object to something, they immediately bring in some anti Hindu leftists from JNU to show how these “Liberal Hindus” differ from the “Hindutvadies” living the US and then shut the Hindus objection down. Interestingly, its the so called “liberals” of the US who do this..
@ Sharell
I can live with a bit of trouble. If things get nasty, I have my German shepherd for company.
@ Mohit Gupta
If I wrote a newspaper article titled “Vi pokinul Rossiu yeshche raz”, I would. 50% of the drivers in Moscow are crooks, the other 50% are on suicide missions.
Make sure those drivers have their doses of vodka, so that the drivers on suicide mission would drink the vodka before the mission, and the crooks would drink it after the mission. The suicidal drives would rethink their mission after drinking vodka every time, and the crooks would screw more people in order to have more vodka. Both ways, the vodka business would prosper.
It is the drinking that makes the drivers suicidal. I wasn’t talking about a suicide mission in the ‘terrorist’ sense.
Hi Sharrell,
I enjoyed reading your take on my post. Thank you for saying that your aims in India are more human than Gandhian—from the comments section on my NYT post (and then later, on my personal blog), I was beginning to think I was the only one.
Enjoy the adventure and please keep writing!
~sumedh
P.S.: I know you didn’t imply this, but I didn’t stay in a crorepati mansion—we stayed in a rented three-bedroom flat. But still, I think you will agree that both of us are far more than “average members” of Indian society—77% of Indians make Rs. 20 or less per day.
Hi Sumedh, thanks so much for stopping by and commenting. I’m honoured.
I really enjoyed reading your piece and it obviously stirred up a lot of emotion in people.
I look forward to reading more from you in the future too.
Good that you came here now I can convey my feeling to you , simply.
Indian certainly doesn’t need weak and opportunistic persons like you ,who calls Drivers/Maids liar , and we are honored not to have you anymore in India.
77% of Indians make Rupees 20 or Less. ? Is this a proof of your intelligence or misinformation Dude ? If ever you took a pain to know the reality you would have known that even a beggar in India can make more than 20 Rs in just 4 Hours.Not that India is a High-Income Country but the information you provided is obviously not correct.
I was waiting for you to comment, Mohit. You were fast!
But like many people, I think you’ve misinterpreted what he said. It wasn’t him who called drivers/maids etc. liars. It was what he had been told by so many others.
Yeah , I can sometimes come out from my shell very fast if I see something abnormal in the world.
No , I have not mis-interpreted but understated his approach towrds weaker section of society.I again quote –
“Within six months, I’d brusquely refused my driver an emergency loan of 500 rupees ($10) to attend his grandmother’s funeral. I’d learned my lesson after our previous driver scammed me into paying for his son’s broken leg (as it turned out, he had no son). It only encourages them to ask for more; besides, they’re all liars.”
I think the “I” in the above para refers to Him only. If it doesn’t then I am sorry ! But still , the reasons he gave to leave India are silly and and based on his own inability to cope with the situation.If his reasons leaving India were genuine , most of the educated people would have left India Years Ago !
The person certainly believe in classicism and I can’t stand people who abuse persons of lower socio-economic strata like maid/drivers.
Hmmm, hopefully he will come back and clarify it for us.
Why would he clarify ? Its because of this , by abusing maids/drivers , he has got attention in the world of Blog.It is main USP of his blog post.Let him enjoy that.
@Mohit. With a few clicks you can find information that supports Sumedh’s assertions. Where did you get your facts Mohit ?
Helene ,
Though these days , I communicate with people mostly on internet but my grasp of my own people and country has not been blunted by that.I really don’t need any *Sumedh-Mungee* , The One Who Left India (Again) and shamelessly think that all maids/drivers are liar and cheats.I am DHARTIPUTRA , The son of Land and I know India from its roots to the heights and from its breadth to its depth and its right to left.
I know you are talking about the studies of IMO or World Bank but let me tell you frankly that all these studies stink worse than the fart of the mine after eating Mooli-Parantha.
I am yet to meet ANY person who makes less than 20 Rs /Day.Do you know what CHOTUS(child labors) in road-side eateries gets in a month? I always converse with them in real world and they mostly get around 1500-2500 INR , generally.
Oh ! come on , even I beg on a traffic light I will make 20 Rs in just a hour..
@Mohit. I like the way you put it.
If I compare to my own country, where a lot of people are slipping towards poverty, it’s difficult to believe what some people have to face, especially as a lucky midle class person.
I am no expert on India however I understand that craft people (traditionnal weavers for example) and cultivators are having a hard time.
From your example, Chotus get 1 dollar a day. But India is also well-known for it’s very rich. Probably India’s challenge is to develop a large middle-class (?).
In my opinion , India needed to remove the asymmetrical wealth distribution.Which can only be achieved by Real-Intent of providing EACH and EVERY citizen of India with three basic needs , i.e., Food , Clothes and Houses.Once they get these , all other more productive activities like education , employment and business can be done.
Democracy in its present form doesn’t suit India.I want to bring all people of India at least to a BASIC STANDARD OF LIFE and then think about global standing , regional superpower , etc , etc. But our leaders don’t have a vision and those who have a vision like . APJ Abdul Kalam and Mohit Gupta , never get to become a leader.
Alas ! , People of India have to put up with these useless and mediocre leadership of government for some more time.
I agree. The current state of the World is absurd.
“the reflexive, addictive and tragically accurate placement of other Indians into bullock carts, scooters, airplanes and who knows what else. These issues exist in all countries, but in India, I could see the bigotry in high fidelity and hear the stereotypes in surround-sound — partly →because it is worse in India, mostly because I am Indian←.”
Did you got the answer? He is cursing himself because he is Indian, eh?
And i think he got some psychiatric issues with himself, and blaming whole India. Even his daughter is calm while facing that issue in a traffic (bullock cart)? couldn’t he took his daughter on small bike to avoid that conflict? His main problem is he want a life which is full of leisures, luxuries, he want a life like “American Guy”.
→Why do I feel better in the U.S.? Maybe it’s not because I’m at home here, but because I’m an alien.←
→ When I first left India in 1996, I left for the U.S. When I left India in 2009, I left India.←
(copied from his blog.)
He has lived in “High Fi People Background”. I got his main problem. He likes his life more like guy who wants others life by his way. He can’t adjust the things. He doesn’t accept the things they are.
In overall, he hate the fact that he is born in India. He got more issues with India, (yeah of course he has. Just point me one issue he had when living in US). He must have probably forgot about his childhood friends, family, kins, their love, shared happiness. Yeah, all in vein…
Hi Anonymous.
The outrage here is not this person and his views. India has millions like him. Self flagellating clueless.
But the fact that NYTrash would selectively pick articles like this. Mind you, there probably are plenty of articles like that Chetan Bhagat like articles…but they would totally ignore those and pick these kinds of crap.
This kind of crap is so so common here in the US media.
Worse things happen in India. Pregnant women get their stomachs opened and foetuses burnt during riots. Little children are forced to work in slave labour till they die of exhaustion or malnutrition.
Abdullah ,
Did you and Tamasha go on a Slum-Holiday ?
If I start on what your country Russia and Tamasha’s America did in the past then even SHAITAN will be ashamed.
jinke ghar sheeshe ke hote hain woh doosre par patthar nahin phenkte !
Satan? We captured him, interrogated him to reveal all his techniques and when we were done, we imprisoned him in the warhead of the Voevoda missile. When it comes to evil, we can coach Lucifer himself.
But seriously, I never claimed my country is holier than yours. My point was, India doesn’t have a moral edge over any country. What happened in China can happen in Delhi or Mumbai any time (and DOES happen). A friend of mine, an officer in Delhi Police told me about a case where a Jain couple poured boiling water on their infant girl and dumped her in an MCD garbage dump. So much for ahimsa. The whole “my country is holier than XYZ country” is as immature and self-serving as the kids who argue that their father is stronger than other’s fathers.
And frankly, your Tamasha bashing is getting tedious. This is internet, holding a personal grudge against a person you don’t know or haven’t met is retarded. You are intelligent, why don’t you guys just get out of each other’s way?
Abdullah ,
“What happened in China can happen in Delhi or Mumbai any time (and DOES happen).
Really ? Please give us proof.Only exact incidences would be entertained. No deviation shall be accepted.
To quote some incidences from the war-time or even worse riot-times done by satanic people is not a validation of “Bystander-Mentality” of Indian people in general.
And about Tamasha , let me tell you , I don’t have any personal grudges against her and I am sure she doesn’t have against me.In fact I like her very much and appreciate the good work she is doing.The only issue is that somehow knowing India better than her , I can’t digest some imaginary data about Indians.And I challenge all those false claims without coming in her way.
This is a global phenomenon and has a term for it “Bystander syndrome”. It was coined when a young woman kept shouting in an apartment in US for nearly 20 minutes. No one came out to help her and she was found dead the next day. Infact one woman had shouted back to shut herself up, so that she could sleep.
Leave the public, we have politicians and cops standing and watching, doing nothing even when the person severly injured is a cop.
Or law student being beaten with rods few steps from the cops in a law college gate.
The china incident, that had raised a huge debate in the China. there was another incident in which an old chinese woman was injured in a bus or train. Someone helped her, took her to hospital. And she sued him, as a result the man had to bear 40% of the medical expenses. This was given as one major reason by the Chinese media for the apathy.
In the west, cops and law makers have undergone this learning experience and direct people, not to help but call the first respondents.
And at few states, its obligatory by law to inform emergency, in event of someone coming across one.
This is unfortunately not the case with Indian civic society. We have a breed of politicians who would rather protect thier fuedal position, get high class security for themselves and make a power statement, just like how kings and landlords used to.
And this is not a country related phenomenon, but rather product of human behavior. People behave like mice and presume that someone else will help.
And its also product of what would be the outcome of helping others, things like – car seat will become bloody, problem with police etc.
If legal and civic society brings in a change to reward exhibition of such behavior, them people can be conditioned to help others.
We would continue to see bystander effect, as long as there is a negative reinforcement of the people who take initiative to help others. And alot depends on the legal and social environment.
And India is no excpetion to this social behavior. Infact it shows up more, as Population is very high. I have heard stories of man with thier head cracked and rain leaking out…pleading others to take them to hospital.
Does living in India make you a bad person ? Yes, because of stuff like this :
It’s that time of the year (Bakri-Id) when Muck-slimes ( i.e. Indians who have become infected with the Arabic Plague) will drag hapless animals to the middle of the roads of Mumbai, and will then proceed to cruelly and slowly slit the throats of the animal, so that the animals may die a painful death, and provide meat for the Muck-slimes to feat upon.
While the animal is slowly dying on the street, the Muck-slimes (children included) will clap in glee, and dance in the ever-expanding pool of blood, gushing from the stricken animal onto the street.
After feasting on the meat of the slaughtered animal, the Muck-slimes will pat themselves on their backs, and will feel good about themselves, for having made a great sacrifice.
The poor animal sacrifices its life, and the Muck-slimes get the credit for the sacrifice ? Go figure !
The Congress Government of India will further bend over backwards to appease the Minority Muck-slimes, and pander to their basest demands, while continuing to marginalize the Majority Hindus of India. Thus, instead of outright banning this abomination of ritual animal-slaughter, which has nothing to do with the 5000-year-old culture of India, the Congress Government of India has declared this shameful day as a National Holiday, and will wish all Muck-slimes a Happy Bakri _Id !
Is it any wonder then that the Post Office of India, out of a total of 14 National Holidays, observes four Islumic holidays, and ONLY TWO HINDU HOLIDAYS, even though Muck-slimes constitute only 20 % of India’s population ?
Happy Bakri-Id, everybody !
A positive article by an Indian who is excited to come and live in India:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-15520933
After reading many comments on this blog, that title seems accurate.
LOL
Think it this way. I’m a Brahmin, and hence intellectually superior. Since I’m intellectually superior, I have all the intellect in the world to challenge the definitions or science that prove me intellectual, don’t I?
Awww, no way! Seriously, I wouldn’t let you!
@seeya-
‘The govt. does a lot. People at their own level, do a lot. So STFU. Liar.’
All I asked was to prove it, 2,000+ dead children don’t lie.
Resorting to name calling again seeya?
Well, I could call you nasty names too. But seeing as you’re comfortable letting 43% of Indian children remain malnourished there’s really nothing nastier I could call you.
If you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem. Hope you can live with yourself.
Seeya ,
I agree with you in Ideas and Principle.India is the only place in the whole world where *common people* shell out a vast amount of money to help poor people directly.I have rarely seen any person refusing any person Food who is really hungry.There are free Bhandaras in thousands of temple all over the India.People invite poor people to their home for giving them money and food.A big amount of money collected at temples go to help the poor of India.Indians are not perfect human being , I agree.But there is definitely a sense of belonging and social responsibility in the people of India.
Many people just abuse rich and successful people of India for being ‘insensitive’ to the poor people.Those people simply forget that if these rich and successful people choose to shut down their business and stop earning money , many poor people would cease to exist .These companies or people don’t have any legal obligation to help poor and hungry people but they DO.Even far-right wing extremist in India are very sensitive when it comes to helping poor people.Infact what I have seen Right-Wingers are more sensitive than Lefty-Liberals in Helping poors.
There is only one request.Though I don’t have any right to suggest you but please be a bit mild even in the confrontation with people who are ignorant about India.That way we can make better efforts to let them know India and burst the bubble of their superficial and biased perception of India and Indians.
BTW..That quote is from a blog titled “She Talks like June”. An awesome desi gal!
I’d rather have 1 June instead of a Million Tamasha for India!
Fair point, Manny and I completely agree. I am from a country that wasn’t too different from India in the 1990s, what with the post-Communist shockwaves and all that. A lot of us had to stuggle a lot to get by and now that we have ‘arrived’, I hear a lot of English, French and Americans complain about how all our wealth is ‘blood money’ of all those ‘poor huddled masses’ around the globe.
I think it is an expression of deep seated jealousy and feeling of worthlessness among the people of these countries. In spite of having the comfort and security of a first world economy, these people couldn’t get where we are. So now, they need some moral self-righteousness to feel better about their existence – they are living for a ’cause’.
Exactly.. Some of the lefties here in the US are almost resentful of the successful Indians, especially if the Indians are more successful than them. They can’t stand it. So they throw this Guilt thing about all those sufferings in India and how we could live in luxury.
By that logic, how could all these rich countries even exist while there are so many suffering around the world?
And tell them about job outsourcing to India that could help the poor a bit, the same lefty liberal would turn around and write to Obama that these jobs should come back to their country and screw all those poor people of India.
LOL
@ Manny
Indeed. It is not a lefty and righty problem though, the American right wing is far more jingoistic than your run-of-the-mill Democrat. Most of the vicious Slavophobes, Indophobes and other anti-(insert foreign ethnic group)phobes I have seen are the right wingers. The simply can’t stand a nation or ethnic group that isn’t one of them doing better than do. If we make more wealth than them, it can’t be with a honest day’s work, it has to be drug peddling, human trafficking or some other underworld business.
* than they do.
@Manny & Abdullah-
I live in relative luxury. I don’t damn anyone that works for their $ that lives in luxury. But I also donate 1 month of my professional services to neutral charities as well as 10% of my earnings. In medical school ‘giving back to the community’ was routinely drummed into our heads. Why shouldn’t every profession (not just medicine) have this same ideal?
It really doesn’t cost that much to feed someone.
@ Tamasha
I wasn’t talking about you Tamasha, I was talking about the type of people mentioned in Manny’s article. It was EXACTLY the type of people I have personally experienced, when they realise I am not a western but an East European. Thanks to Hollywood stereotypes, I have heard so much slander about being a human trafficker, drug dealer and ex-KGB mafioso. These days, I take it in good humour though, it helps to have an ‘international bad guy’ image.
Slavic women face a lot of discrimination too, although of a more unsavourity nature. For instance, most American women who slander Russian women claim they these women are just pretty faces with no brains, when in reality, the average Katya or Olyessa is far more well read and seen more of life than your average Brenda or Laura. She is also far more pragmatic and in tune with the ways of the world than Brenda is.
Most western people are so lazy, predictable and unthinking that can’t enjoy life in their comfortable societies and get a sort of complex when they see a person from a less priviledged nation doing better in than they do. So they get this huge chip on their shoulders and want to put that person down by inducing some holier-than-thou guilt trip.
@Mohit-
‘Please provide data for your claim that 2500 children were died of Malnutrition in Raichur.’
Here you go-
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/malnutrition-death-in-karnataka-kids-die/1/153489.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HjpOetG1VA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ9AaqNMPY
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investigation/malnutrition-kills-2600-kids-in-raichur
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investigation/malnutrition-kills-2600-kids-in-raichur
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/karnataka-malnutrition-as-a-shame/1/153643.html
@Veeh. Re : mental illness. In India families take care of relatives with mental illness. Over here we put them in “infrastuctures”, relying on government. We also put old people in homes. We hide all the misery and pretend it is not there. Is it better ? I don’t think so.
” I was scolded by my parents not to help him push it against the sloped road, in front of my house.”
SO WEIRD !
@Helene-
Plumpy’nut is a peanut-based paste in a plastic wrapper for treatment of severe acute malnutrition manufactured by a French company, Nutriset. Removing the need for hospitalization, a 92 gram packet of the paste can be administered at home and allow larger numbers to be treated. Plumpy’nut has a two year shelf life and requires no water, preparation, or refrigeration. Its ease of use has made mass treatment of malnutrition in famine situations more efficient than in the past. Severe acute malnutrition has traditionally been treated with therapeutic milk and required hospitalization. Unlike milk, Plumpy’nut can be administered at home and without medical supervision. This utility has been recognized by the United Nations, which stated in 2007, “new evidence suggests that large numbers of children with severe acute malnutrition can be treated in their communities without being admitted to a health facility or a therapeutic feeding centre.” Plumpy’nut conforms to the UN definition of a Ready-to-Use Therapeutic Food (RUTF).
The ingredients in Plumpy’nut include “peanut-based paste, with sugar, vegetable fat and skimmed milk powder, enriched with vitamins and minerals. (All these ingredients can be readily grown & or manufactured in India) While the majority of Plumpy’nut was made in France as of 2010, this therapeutic food is easily produced and can be made locally in peanut-growing areas by mixing peanut paste with a slurry of other ingredients provisioned by Nutriset. Producing Plumpy’nut under sanitary conditions in India has been the main problem.
The Indian gov’t seems to think a ‘hot cooked’ meal is better than Plumpy’nut also.
When you mention ration cards & subsidized food products don’t neglect to mention that many of the grains & foodstuffs (rice, wheat, corn) provided are moldy & contain liver toxic aflatoxins. Children are particularly affected by aflatoxin exposure, which leads to stunted growth and delayed development.
Do you know how the “Socialist govt of India” is able to sell ration card food at such low prices? Its not subsidized. Subsidized would mean, the govt buys it at market rate and then subsidizes it for the poor. But thats not how it works in India.
If I remember right, (Its been a while), my grand parents who are farmers, whatever they harvest (Rice), they had to sell 50% of the crop to the govt at the govt fixed price. that is correct. Mind you, they are not farming on govt/public land like the grazing land here in Texas where ranchers use public land to graze for their cattle. Most farmers in India farm on their own land. And by now you probably have realized that Indian farmers are not rich. They are equally or very very poor. So this “socialist govt” robs from poor farmers and spreads to to other poor people while taking a cut for their own corruption that is buit in all these schemes. Its a bizzare culture of distribution of poverty in India.
This is like the Indian sweeping style. Where every morning people come out of the house and sweep their front door by moving dirt from one corner to another and they repeat this crap every day.
There are alternative supplements available in India, that are more suited to Indian tastes. I don’t remember the name, but there was this charity organisation that sponsored them to children of Okhla slums in Delhi at Rs 12 a kilo. I agree with Helene, dependance on foreign products does create a lot of political and economic problems, apart from health problems if the body doesn’t assimilate something that is too ‘exotic’ for the system.
Are these plumpy nut products produced by corporations that sells for profit or govt research faculty of France?
@Abdullah & Helene-
Look, ‘Ready to Use Therapeutic Food’ (RUTF) is only to be used for children suffering ‘Severe Acute Malnutrition’ (SAM) as a ‘MEDICAL TREATMENT’. It is only advised for 14 days use and cannot be replaced with local concoctions.
Opponents of RUTF cite the high cost of RUTF and question its sustainability. They fear that RUTF will be used as a supplement & will slowly begin to replace breast milk and rice and dal in the family pot.
I’m opening up a can of worms for arguing on behalf of RUTF, but this is life or death. Politicians do not stare into the dull eyes of a malnourished child.
There has been a lot of debate about RUTF in India since the Department of Women and Child Development (not the Department of Health) asked UNICEF to stop using RUTF in their emergency treatment efforts for severely malnourished children.
Opponents of RUTF do not understand RUTF.
There is currently no treatment option available for out-patient care for severe acute malnutrition in India. While there are many local recipes available for community based treatment of moderate acute malnutrition, these “home remedies” cannot be used for severe acute malnutrition because of the SAM child’s delicate state. A child with SAM needs specialized treatment that properly balances carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and micronutrients in an energy-dense formula. Because of their fragile state of malnutrition, potential contaminants in this treatment, whether from unclean water or any other toxins that can be found in many village kitchens, may put the life of a child at risk. RUTF provides the right dose of nutrients to help a child with SAM recover quickly, without chance of contamination.
RUTF is a medicine, not a supplement: RUTF is a formulation that should be treated like a medicine. It’s the equivalent to the F-100 formula (milk-based) used at hospitals across India but is instead made in a paste that can be safely given to a child to take home. RUTF is not a supplementary food or a method to prevent malnutrition, but is a treatment for a fixed amount of time to get a child back on a normal growth pattern and prevent death. RUTF has had astounding success in malnutrition treatment programs around the world.
SAM treatment is different than Moderate Acute Malnutrition (MAM) treatment: Children with SAM are at a high risk of dying and require a specifically therapeutic formulation for optimum weight gain, children with MAM do not. Local production of the foods recommended by DWCD would be perfectly targeted for MAM treatment. Treating the larger MAM population with local foods serves as a preventative measure and could also employ self help groups, community groups, use local produce and stimulate the local markets. These two feeding methods should be complementary, not exclusive. Local supplements are also ideal for ensuring that a child who has recovered from SAM does not slip back into malnutrition.
’nuff said.
@Tamasha,
You are now discussing a very specialized subject here with us amateurs. Should this not be discussed with Indian physicians and health care specialists and public policy folks? Are you saying that all those Indian physicians and health policy advocates are simply unreasonable? I am pretty sure quite a lot of them can be unreasonable and stupid and ignorant. But are there no supporters for this if it is that obvious that this is the only option out?
You are giving the impression that its so obvious that this is the only way out but Indian physicians and health care ministry are purposely are negligent towards India’s poor children.
I am not is a position to disagree with your findings or what you are saying here.. But from all your other posts, I sincerely have doubts on your credibility.
@Manny-
I clearly stated in my post ‘There has been a lot of debate about RUTF in India since the Department of Women and Child Development (not the Department of Health) asked UNICEF to stop using RUTF in their emergency treatment efforts for severely malnourished children.’
also
‘Politicians do not stare into the dull eyes of a malnourished child.’
“Are you saying that all those Indian physicians and health policy advocates are simply unreasonable? I am pretty sure quite a lot of them can be unreasonable and stupid and ignorant.”
Yes, or that they do not value the lives of Indian children.
‘But from all your other posts, I sincerely have doubts on your credibility.’
Manny with all your lefty/righty/Jesus freak/ Howard Zinn etc BS you spew on here, your credibility is ZILCH.
@Tamasha. I understand what you are saying, however I thought that there was no starvation in India although a lot of people go hungry ?
@Helene-
‘@Tamasha. I understand what you are saying, however I thought that there was no starvation in India although a lot of people go hungry ?’
Ummmmmmmmm I guess you missed my post where I stated I just got back from volunteering in Raichur, Karnataka where over 2,600 children under the age of 6 years have died of malnutrition in Raichur district of Karnataka during the past two years, as per data provided by women and child welfare department.
As many as 4,531 malnourished children are on their deathbed. Malnutrition has hit epidemic proportions in villages of Deodurg and Manvi taluks in the Raichur district. We are fed up of raising the issue with the authorities concerned. For them, it is a joke,” rued Y. Mariswamy of Samajika Parivarthana Andholana (SPJ), a movement for people’s rights.
@Tamasha. I found this link that explains more in detail the reasons of opposing Plumpynut :
http://fex.ennonline.net/37/rutf.aspx
As a mum and donator to Unicef, I think it’s horrible that children have to suffer or die, and I can imagine that you must get very angry and upset in your daily work.
I think there is clearly a communication problem between Unicef and the Department of Women and Child Development. Helping others is very difficult since you must not make others feel like victims, but must empower them. I hope you find a way of working together.
@Manny-
There’s actually a fairly new product similar to Plumpy’nut called eeZeePaste NUT™ which is is produced in factories in India and Norway by the manufacturer ‘Compact’. I think they make BP-100 biscuits now too. MSF, WHO & UNICEF had some big patent debacle with privately owned French ‘Nutriset’ (maker of Plumpy-nut) I don’t recall how it turned out though.
Thanks for providing support for your claim and quote from these news-website who rely on sensational inputs.But wouldn’t you appreciate the fact that many NGOs governed by so-called “APATHETIC-INDIANS” are working for these children and raising the issues with authority.
So , your main accusation of Indian being apathetic to the plight of poor children is proved WRONG by these only news-source which you provided.
Aunty jee , I never denied the existence of Malnutrition of children in India.But I objected to what you said umpteen time that INDIANS ARE APATHETIC Towards Malnutrition of India.
Just Tell me ..
Are Thousand of NGOs working for Children welfare not Indian ?
Are these NGOs not assisted financially , socially and logistically by local Indians ?
You strays from the main discussion more then often and say things which are contradictory itself.Because you are least concerned about India’s malnutrintioned children but most concerned in how can you use those data to blame other Indians.
And for your kind information the Causes of those Children’ death is yet to be cleared.The case is in the court.
Malnutrition is not the cause for the recent deaths of children in Raichur district, the District Legal Services Authority (DLSA) has stated in a report submitted to the Karnataka High Court.
The judge observed that the children’s parents had no medical records and it was difficult to ascertain whether they had approached any hospital or not, because of superstitious beliefs. “Illiteracy is also another factor,” the judge states in the report.
@Mohit-
Are Thousand of NGOs working for Children welfare not Indian ?
Are these NGOs not assisted financially , socially and logistically by local Indians ?
No, they are NOT.
Which I find alarming.
So the Indian Department of Women and Child Development are lying about the 2600 child deaths under the age of 6 years due to malnutrition?
I saw quite a few malnourished children in my stay in Raichur, quite a few child cadavers also, they obviously had suffered grade III & IV malnutrition.
Why I would go to Raichur just to find data ‘to blame other Indians’ ?
My culture taught me that every human life is precious, apparently your culture taught you that only your pretentious national pride is precious.
Tamasha ,
“Are Thousand of NGOs working for Children welfare not Indian ?
Are these NGOs not assisted financially , socially and logistically by local Indians ?
No, they are NOT. !
WHAT AAAARE UUUUU SAAAAYYYING ?
Now , you have gone completely out of any sense of reality.And Please don’t think that just because you are a doctor , anything which you say become a GITA for all of us poor and apathetic Indians.I have at least 100 doctors friends and they are more Qualified , Sensitive and into Social service …and they are all Indians !
Anyway you need a good rest.Good Night !
@Mohit-
You wrote & I quote-
‘I have at least 100 doctors friends and they are more Qualified , Sensitive and into Social service …and they are all Indians !’
To all you Indian parents out there- this is a great example of the kind of emotionally stunted momma’s boy you get when mollycoddle your sons. Never teaching them to think for themselves nor develop any sense of responsibility they’ll always remain mentally about 6 yrs old. Incapable of independent thought or reason, making silly little boy narcissistic statements like ‘I have at least 100 doctors friends….’
Always thinking they’re the center of the universe devoid of any flaws because mommy would never allow the chhota raja to experience any sort of reality or the slightest disillusionment to his egregious ego.
Tamasha ,
The relevance of your comments are going to a downhill.You are addressing me typing “@ Mohit” and are then are giving some silly advice to Indian parents. This is a curious case of Tamasha Aunty..
How normal is it to call out a person and then start giving advice to him as if he was his own parent.
First she tell all of us that Indians are apathetic and don’t care about Children.And when I give him examples from my personal life and friends , She call me Moma’s boy as if I am going to take take offense of that.Obviously I am my Moma’s boy , unlike you , who was dropped from the sky by Saint Jhakas.
And how does it bother you if I am dependent , irresponsible ? And why does it hurt your ass if I my Moma’s makes sure that I remain protected from all the wicked woman like you.
Last but not least , Don’t blame my mother for what I am as I didn’t give her the time to refine my personality because I moved away from Home when I was just 11 years old.
So can we all stop arguing now. I’m pretty pissed off again that I’ve had to go through and waste my time deleting numerous irrelevant comments, on numerous posts, that serve no purpose to my blog.
Helene ,
The award for ‘Indophile of the week’ for coming week goes to you.
@ Mohit. Thank you very much !
Yes it is weird, but not for me.
I was too soft and idealist for my parents. And that works against the image in rustic environment where certain traits are associated with a caste.
I defied the stereotype in a place where kids would throw stones at the dogs for fun. My dad wanted me to be worldly wise and toughen up.
I had to work against the cultural shock of transformed from a army contonement life to a rustic life style. I did graduation in a rustic college, where the primary objective of my stay was to toughen up. And i did not, used it as a platform to launch myself into an Post graduate Engineer college and later an MBA.
My experience proves that parents, family don’t care beyond the boundaries of their family. Only a major even that directly affects them, propels them to act for agents outside their family.
And this is a major reason for social apathy in the Indian cultural context.
Veeeeh ,
Hmmm , There is some reality in what you are saying.Though , for my good luck , my parents always encouraged me to help poor , talk to strangers , old and women with respect , but I have actually seen some parents around who would stop their children playing or even talking with the children of lower socio-economic status.